Crucifying Alternative Medicine

Discussion in 'Health and medical' started by Debbee1023, Mar 6, 2004.

  1. Debbee1023

    Debbee1023 Guest

    Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
    newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
    agenda with those that have chosen to use some form of
    alternative medicine? It reminds me of a certain group of
    individuals, who stand to lose financial gain if the word
    gets out about alternative therapies and how they do work.
    Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of healing
    powers, that made them so insanely jealous. And for the
    fact, that conventional medicine is not getting every
    dollar. Is this not true, and is this not the real reason,
    some of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
    individual that has the guts to step up to the plate, and
    state how alternative medicine has helped them? Some of you
    are absolutely clueless about freedoms we have to choose
    what type of medicine we use, and dislike those that use
    alternative medicine and promote healing which is to find
    the root of the medical problem instead of masking it with
    drugs. Some of us don't believe in being co-dependent on
    pharmaceuticals, to make it through the day. I know numerous
    people that live with so much pain every day, that in order
    to make it through the day, they have to keep themselves
    doped up on pain killers to last. Is this any kind of life
    for these people? When I've asked why doesn't your doctor
    look for the source of the pain, and do something about
    it...well, their doctor doesn't have time, or has been told
    to look for the "quick fix". These people are merely
    surviving, and not living because they are being
    "controlled". This type of sadistic behavior from doctors
    who allegedly took an oath when they became doctors is
    little more than just their friendly pharmaceutical company.
    Or what kind of bonuses they've received over the years for
    their quick appointments? For those that claim anti-semitism
    remarks about those of us that are not of your faith,
    perhaps you need explain how some of your people were
    justified in crucifying Christ, and why some of your people
    today are attempting to crucify those individuals have
    discovering alternative healing therapies that do work.

    For those that have been harassed by individuals in
    this newsgroup that do not like alternative
    therapies, remember, the words spoken years ago,
    "forgive them, for they do not know what they are
    doing." They are attempting to crucify methods that
    work, because they do not understand, and for which
    there is no financial gain for themselves or their
    friends... A question to those that continue to
    harass...is it THAT important for you to be sitting
    on what you have been led to believe is the "right
    side of the fence", or would you rather back down,
    and THINK for yourself before denouncing therapies
    for which you have no personal experience, and for
    which others have.....the choice is yours, but
    remember if you choose the wrong choice, you may
    find yourself in a situation later on in life, as
    the rest of us have, when there is no form of
    conventional medicine that will work for you, and
    then what will you do then...die....or try an
    alternative? I chose trying alternative
    therapies....what will you try?
     
    Tags:


  2. Happy Dog

    Happy Dog Guest

    "DEBBEE1023" <[email protected]
    > Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
    > newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
    > agenda with those that have chosen to
    use
    > some form of alternative medicine?

    Most of those "stone casters" use alternative medicines.

    > It reminds me of a certain group of individuals, who
    > stand to lose
    financial
    > gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies and
    > how they do
    work.

    They whould be whom?

    > Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms we have
    > to choose what
    type
    > of medicine we use, and dislike those that use alternative
    > medicine and
    promote
    > healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
    > instead of
    masking it
    > with drugs. Some of us don't believe in being co-
    > dependent on
    pharmaceuticals,
    > to make it through the day. I know numerous people that
    > live with so much
    pain
    > every day, that in order to make it through the day, they
    > have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last.

    Tell them to stop reading your posts.

    > For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
    > newsgroup that do
    not
    > like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
    > years ago, "forgive them, for they do not know what they
    > are doing." They are attempting to crucify methods that
    > work, because they do not understand, and for which
    there
    > is no financial gain for themselves or their friends...

    Goddess-like.

    > A question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
    > important for
    you to
    > be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
    > "right side of the fence", or would you rather back down,
    > and THINK for yourself before
    denouncing
    > therapies for which you have no personal experience,

    IOW, suppress your critical thinking skills and almost
    exclusively belive in personal testimonials.

    moo
     
  3. Bew

    Bew Guest

    "DEBBEE1023" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
    > newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
    > agenda with those that have chosen to
    use
    > some form of alternative medicine? It reminds me of a
    > certain group of individuals, who stand to lose
    financial
    > gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies and
    > how they do
    work.
    > Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
    > healing powers, that
    made
    > them so insanely jealous. And for the fact, that
    > conventional medicine
    is not
    > getting every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not
    > the real reason,
    some
    > of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
    > individual that has
    the
    > guts to step up to the plate, and state how alternative
    > medicine has
    helped
    > them? Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms
    > we have to choose what
    type
    > of medicine we use, and dislike those that use alternative
    > medicine and
    promote
    > healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
    > instead of
    masking it
    > with drugs. Some of us don't believe in being co-
    > dependent on
    pharmaceuticals,
    > to make it through the day. I know numerous people that
    > live with so much
    pain
    > every day, that in order to make it through the day, they
    > have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last.
    > Is this any kind of life for these people? When I've asked
    > why doesn't your doctor look for the source
    of
    > the pain, and do something about it...well, their doctor
    > doesn't have
    time, or
    > has been told to look for the "quick fix". These people
    > are merely
    surviving,
    > and not living because they are being "controlled". This
    > type of sadistic behavior from doctors who allegedly took
    > an oath when they became doctors
    is
    > little more than just their friendly pharmaceutical
    > company. Or what kind
    of
    > bonuses they've received over the years for their quick
    > appointments? For those that claim anti-semitism remarks
    > about those of us that are not
    of
    > your faith, perhaps you need explain how some of your
    > people were
    justified in
    > crucifying Christ, and why some of your people today are
    > attempting to
    crucify
    > those individuals have discovering alternative healing
    > therapies that do
    work.
    >
    > For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
    > newsgroup that do
    not
    > like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
    > years ago, "forgive them, for they do not know what they
    > are doing." They are attempting to crucify methods that
    > work, because they do not understand, and for which
    there
    > is no financial gain for themselves or their friends... A
    > question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
    > important for
    you to
    > be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
    > "right side of the fence", or would you rather back down,
    > and THINK for yourself before
    denouncing
    > therapies for which you have no personal experience, and
    > for which others have.....the choice is yours, but
    > remember if you choose the wrong choice,
    you
    > may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as the
    > rest of us have, when there is no form of conventional
    > medicine that will work for you, and
    then
    > what will you do then...die....or try an alternative? I
    > chose trying alternative therapies....what will you try?

    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''-
    '''''''''''''''''
    ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

    Good post , well said . Bew
     
  4. Anth

    Anth Guest

    Yup like Barret 'ignore the evidence Barret' because it
    suits me sir. When the 'Quackbusters' can't destroy the
    treatment they go on a witch hunt for the people who
    give it. Anth

    "DEBBEE1023" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    m03.aol.com...
    > Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
    > newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
    > agenda with those that have chosen to
    use
    > some form of alternative medicine? It reminds me of a
    > certain group of individuals, who stand to lose
    financial
    > gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies and
    > how they do
    work.
    > Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
    > healing powers, that
    made
    > them so insanely jealous. And for the fact, that
    > conventional medicine
    is not
    > getting every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not
    > the real reason,
    some
    > of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
    > individual that has
    the
    > guts to step up to the plate, and state how alternative
    > medicine has
    helped
    > them? Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms
    > we have to choose what
    type
    > of medicine we use, and dislike those that use alternative
    > medicine and
    promote
    > healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
    > instead of
    masking it
    > with drugs. Some of us don't believe in being co-
    > dependent on
    pharmaceuticals,
    > to make it through the day. I know numerous people that
    > live with so much
    pain
    > every day, that in order to make it through the day, they
    > have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last.
    > Is this any kind of life for these people? When I've asked
    > why doesn't your doctor look for the source
    of
    > the pain, and do something about it...well, their doctor
    > doesn't have
    time, or
    > has been told to look for the "quick fix". These people
    > are merely
    surviving,
    > and not living because they are being "controlled". This
    > type of sadistic behavior from doctors who allegedly took
    > an oath when they became doctors
    is
    > little more than just their friendly pharmaceutical
    > company. Or what kind
    of
    > bonuses they've received over the years for their quick
    > appointments? For those that claim anti-semitism remarks
    > about those of us that are not
    of
    > your faith, perhaps you need explain how some of your
    > people were
    justified in
    > crucifying Christ, and why some of your people today are
    > attempting to
    crucify
    > those individuals have discovering alternative healing
    > therapies that do
    work.
    >
    > For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
    > newsgroup that do
    not
    > like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
    > years ago, "forgive them, for they do not know what they
    > are doing." They are attempting to crucify methods that
    > work, because they do not understand, and for which
    there
    > is no financial gain for themselves or their friends... A
    > question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
    > important for
    you to
    > be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
    > "right side of the fence", or would you rather back down,
    > and THINK for yourself before
    denouncing
    > therapies for which you have no personal experience, and
    > for which others have.....the choice is yours, but
    > remember if you choose the wrong choice,
    you
    > may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as the
    > rest of us have, when there is no form of conventional
    > medicine that will work for you, and
    then
    > what will you do then...die....or try an alternative? I
    > chose trying alternative therapies....what will you try?
     
  5. "DEBBEE1023" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
    > newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
    > agenda with those that have chosen to
    use
    > some form of alternative medicine?

    Actually, the "agenda" is to defend the scientific method
    and rational thought against the magical thinking and
    superstition of the alties. There is as much "stone
    throwing" from the other side as from us debunkers and more
    personal invective.

    > It reminds me of a certain group of individuals, who
    > stand to lose
    financial
    > gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies and
    > how they do
    work.

    Contrary to the beliefs of a few here, NOBODY gets paid to
    post to this newsgroup. And nothing posted here reaches a
    wide enough audience to affect the income of anybody.

    > Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
    > healing powers, that
    made
    > them so insanely jealous.

    What healing powers?

    > And for the fact, that conventional medicine is not
    > getting every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not
    > the real reason,
    some
    > of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
    > individual that has
    the
    > guts to step up to the plate, and state how alternative
    > medicine has
    helped
    > them?

    We don't want to "destroy" individuals. We just want to
    shoot down silly ideas.

    > Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms we have
    > to choose what
    type
    > of medicine we use, and dislike those that use alternative
    > medicine and
    promote
    > healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
    > instead of
    masking it
    > with drugs.

    "Find the root of the medical problem"? One of the biggest
    problems with altie quackery is that its practitioners do
    not do a proper diagnosis. If they are selling chelation,
    everybody's problem is one that can be treated with
    chelation; if they are chiropractors, everyone is diagnosed
    "subluxations"; homeopathy ignores diagnosis entirely and
    treats the symptoms specifically; etc. NONE of the
    "alternatives" is well enough founded in knowledge of
    anatomy and physiology to really find the root of a disease.
    Conventional medicine is.

    > Some of us don't believe in being co-dependent on
    > pharmaceuticals, to make it through the day. I know
    > numerous people that live with so much
    pain
    > every day, that in order to make it through the day, they
    > have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last.
    > Is this any kind of life for these people? When I've asked
    > why doesn't your doctor look for the source
    of
    > the pain, and do something about it...well, their doctor
    > doesn't have
    time, or
    > has been told to look for the "quick fix". These people
    > are merely
    surviving,
    > and not living because they are being "controlled".

    When medical professionals can treat the cause of pain they
    do. Most of the people who come to my emergency room in pain
    leave pain free, and not just because we gave them drugs.
    Unfortunately, there are people with chronic pain from
    incurable conditions. For them, long term medication is
    often an important part of a pain management regime. The
    altie quacks can do no better at "looking for the source of
    the pain."

    > This type of sadistic behavior from doctors who allegedly
    > took an oath when they became doctors
    is
    > little more than just their friendly pharmaceutical
    > company.

    Sadistic behavior? Treating pain is sadistic?

    > Or what kind of bonuses they've received over the years
    > for their quick appointments? For those that claim anti-
    > semitism remarks about those of us that are not
    of
    > your faith, perhaps you need explain how some of your
    > people were
    justified in
    > crucifying Christ, and why some of your people today are
    > attempting to
    crucify
    > those individuals have discovering alternative healing
    > therapies that do
    work.

    "...some of your people were justified in crucifying
    Christ"? You anti-Semites never let up, do you?

    >
    > For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
    > newsgroup that do
    not
    > like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
    > years ago, "forgive them, for they do not know what they
    > are doing." They are attempting to crucify methods that
    > work, because they do not understand, and for which
    there
    > is no financial gain for themselves or their friends... A
    > question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
    > important for
    you to
    > be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
    > "right side of the fence", or would you rather back down,
    > and THINK for yourself before
    denouncing
    > therapies for which you have no personal experience, and
    > for which others have.....the choice is yours, but
    > remember if you choose the wrong choice,
    you
    > may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as the
    > rest of us have, when there is no form of conventional
    > medicine that will work for you, and
    then
    > what will you do then...die....or try an alternative? I
    > chose trying alternative therapies....what will you try?

    Are you implying that YOU ("rest of us") have found yourself
    dying, forsaken by conventional medicine, and compelled to
    choose an alternative to save you life? Tell us the story.

    --Rich
     
  6. "Bew" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "DEBBEE1023" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
    > > newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
    > > agenda with those that have chosen
    to
    > use
    > > some form of alternative medicine? It reminds me of a
    > > certain group of individuals, who stand to lose
    > financial
    > > gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies
    > > and how they do
    > work.
    > > Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
    > > healing powers, that
    > made
    > > them so insanely jealous. And for the fact, that
    > > conventional medicine
    > is not
    > > getting every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not
    > > the real
    reason,
    > some
    > > of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
    > > individual that has
    > the
    > > guts to step up to the plate, and state how alternative
    > > medicine has
    > helped
    > > them? Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms
    > > we have to choose
    what
    > type
    > > of medicine we use, and dislike those that use
    > > alternative medicine and
    > promote
    > > healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
    > > instead of
    > masking it
    > > with drugs. Some of us don't believe in being co-
    > > dependent on
    > pharmaceuticals,
    > > to make it through the day. I know numerous people that
    > > live with so
    much
    > pain
    > > every day, that in order to make it through the day,
    > > they have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to
    > > last. Is this any kind of life
    for
    > > these people? When I've asked why doesn't your doctor
    > > look for the
    source
    > of
    > > the pain, and do something about it...well, their doctor
    > > doesn't have
    > time, or
    > > has been told to look for the "quick fix". These people
    > > are merely
    > surviving,
    > > and not living because they are being "controlled". This
    > > type of
    sadistic
    > > behavior from doctors who allegedly took an oath when
    > > they became
    doctors
    > is
    > > little more than just their friendly pharmaceutical
    > > company. Or what
    kind
    > of
    > > bonuses they've received over the years for their quick
    > > appointments? For those that claim anti-semitism remarks
    > > about those of us that are
    not
    > of
    > > your faith, perhaps you need explain how some of your
    > > people were
    > justified in
    > > crucifying Christ, and why some of your people today are
    > > attempting to
    > crucify
    > > those individuals have discovering alternative healing
    > > therapies that do
    > work.
    > >
    > > For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
    > > newsgroup that
    do
    > not
    > > like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
    > > years ago,
    "forgive
    > > them, for they do not know what they are doing." They
    > > are attempting to crucify methods that work, because
    > > they do not understand, and for which
    > there
    > > is no financial gain for themselves or their friends...
    > > A question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
    > > important for
    > you to
    > > be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
    > > "right side of
    the
    > > fence", or would you rather back down, and THINK for
    > > yourself before
    > denouncing
    > > therapies for which you have no personal experience, and
    > > for which
    others
    > > have.....the choice is yours, but remember if you choose
    > > the wrong
    choice,
    > you
    > > may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as
    > > the rest of us
    have,
    > > when there is no form of conventional medicine that will
    > > work for you,
    and
    > then
    > > what will you do then...die....or try an alternative? I
    > > chose trying alternative therapies....what will you try?
    >
    >
    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''-
    '''''''''''''''''
    > ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
    >
    > Good post , well said .

    Including the anti-semitism?
     
  7. In article <[email protected]>,
    DEBBEE1023 says...
    >
    > Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
    > newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have
    > an agenda with those that have chosen to use some
    > form of alternative medicine?

    Ever notice that those who are fighting against those
    bringing a semblence of reason and fact to the health care
    issue seem to be unable to argue against rational fact and
    science, and must instead stoop to cheap bigoted insults in
    the place of a cogent argument?

    > It reminds me of a certain group of individuals, who
    > stand to lose financial gain if the word gets out
    > about alternative therapies and how they do work.

    It reminds me of a certain group of individuals who felt
    frustrated by their failures in life, and began to
    consolidate power through the blame of others, rather than
    focus on their own shortcomings.

    >Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
    >healing powers,

    Healing powers? Are you claiming that alternative
    "doctors"... wait, scratch that... let's call them
    "alternative medicine practicioners" perform "miracles" on
    par with Jesus Christ?

    Debbee, I believe the concerns with certain alternative
    medicines and practices that the contrarians in this group
    have can be classified into at least two basic categories:

    1) Those herbal remedies or similar extractive preparations
    that are not refined or otherwise scientifically
    processed, so that their dosages aren't accurate, their
    properties cannot be adequately estimated, and their
    effects cannot be accurately predicted;

    2) Remedies or techniques which have no basis in scientific
    fact at all, but are offered as miracle cures, and are
    simply ways in which charlatans can part fools from
    their money.

    Nobody doubts, for instance, that herbal remedies can have a
    physiological impact on the human body. After all, many
    medicines are derived from various chemical compounds found
    in herbs, plants, trees, etc, that have been scientifically
    examined and processed in a manner to allow for accurate dose-
    response relationships.

    There's a big difference between a Bayer aspirin, and the
    bark of a white willow tree.

    There are, I am sure, more categories, but these two will
    suffice for now.

    > that made them so insanely jealous. And for the fact, that
    > conventional medicine is not getting every dollar.

    As a free marketeer, I wholly believe in more competition in
    the marketplace. But I am not willing to allow dishonest
    charlatans to prey on the health of foolish and sometimes
    desperate individuals.

    > Is this not true, and is this not the real reason, some of
    > you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
    > individual that has the guts to step up to the plate, and
    > state how alternative medicine has helped them?

    No, it is not true, and it is not the real reason that
    I am here.

    > Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms
    > we have to choose what type of medicine we use,

    And some of you are absolutely clueless about the freedoms
    we have to state what we think is wrong with your choices,
    and, more importantly, your root beliefs about the nature
    of others.

    > and dislike those that use alternative medicine and
    > promote healing which is to find the root of the medical
    > problem instead of masking it with drugs.

    Obviously, you don't know any physicians.

    > Some of us don't believe in being co-dependent on
    > pharmaceuticals, to make it through the day.

    Fine, that's your choice. You can freely choose to take
    whatever risks that you want with your own health and safety
    - as long as you are freely informed as to the risks that
    you are going to undertake.

    Unfortunately, with many alternative therapies, you are not
    privy to that information.

    > I know numerous people that live with so much pain every
    > day, that in order to make it through the day, they have
    > to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last. Is
    > this any kind of life for these people?

    It's a better life than the desperation of wasting
    prodigious sums of money on "miracle cures" that don't work,
    leaving them still in pain, poorer, and in some cases, in
    worse physical shape as a result of the so-called "miracle".

    > When I've asked why doesn't your doctor look for the
    > source of the pain, and do something about it...well,
    > their doctor doesn't have time, or has been told to look
    > for the "quick fix".

    Doubtful. Not only are doctors trained specifically to find
    the root cause of an ailment, under the HMO system the
    quickest route towards curing is to find that root cause.

    > These people are merely surviving, and not living because
    > they are being "controlled". This type of sadistic
    > behavior from doctors who allegedly took an oath when they
    > became doctors is little more than just their friendly
    > pharmaceutical company. Or what kind of bonuses they've
    > received over the years for their quick appointments?

    Again, you obviously don't know any doctors.

    > For those that claim anti-semitism remarks about
    > those of us that are not of your faith, perhaps you
    > need explain how some of your people were justified
    > in crucifying Christ,

    Ah, and here we get to the root of Debbee's problem ailment:
    her belief that the Jews of today are somehow to blame for
    the actions of a very few individuals 2000 years ago.

    I don't justify the behavior of that group of Jews. Not only
    do I have no need or desire to, _YOUR OWN FAITH_ makes it
    entirely unnecessary. If there's anything the various
    Gospels tell us, it is that Christ had to die on the cross
    in order for humanity to be saved. Without the crucifiction,
    there would have been no resurrection, so the Gospels tell
    us, and therefore no miracle.

    That means no Easter, no Holy Trinity, no Christianity (as a
    separate religion from Judaism).

    According to the New Testament, Jesus Christ had to die. So
    your anger at the Jews is misplaced and misguided.

    But thank you once again for demonstrating your bigoted
    ignorance.

    (snip of the rest)

    - Andrew Langer

    Any posts by Andrew Langer are his own, written by him, for
    his own enjoyment (and the education of others). Unless
    expressly stated, they represent his own views, and not
    those of any other individuals or entities. He is not, nor
    has he ever been, paid to post here.
     
  8. Michele

    Michele Guest

    [email protected] (DEBBEE1023) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
    > newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
    > agenda with those that have chosen to use some form of
    > alternative medicine? It reminds me of a certain group of
    > individuals, who stand to lose financial gain if the word
    > gets out about alternative therapies and how they do work.

    Word of real successes DOES get out -- all the time. Weeding
    through the "everything alternative is good" bullshit makes
    it harder to discern the truth, but it's there. "Lose
    financial gain"??? Yeah, right. As if there's no money to be
    made in alternative medicine.....LOL!! (Not to mention that
    insurance companies aren't going to ignore effective
    treatments that will save them money.) Successful alt.
    health care won't stop people from getting sick -- hurting
    themselves -- & ignoring the lifestyle advice their
    conventional providers give them because they want to smoke,
    drink too much, & stuff their faces with lousy food while
    sitting around all day. There will always be a big demand
    for the services of those in conventional health care.
    "Threat"? Hardly.

    > Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
    > healing powers, that made them so insanely jealous. And
    > for the fact, that conventional medicine is not getting
    > every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not the real
    > reason, some of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy
    > every individual that has the guts to step up to the
    > plate, and state how alternative medicine has helped them?

    Questioning & asking for evidence of a treatment's efficacy
    is "destroying" someone?? ROFLMAO! Nobody stops anyone from
    voicing their POV, their experiences -- & nobody should
    expect others not to debate them & express another POV. If
    their claims crumble like an organic wheat muffin, tough.

    [BTW, your erroneous statement that Jesus was the target of
    "pure jealousy" WRT to his reported healing powers is
    laughable. His claim to be the son of God & King of the Jews
    was what threatened the political powers of the time. The
    region was -- as it still is today -- politically troubled.]

    > Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms
    > we have to choose what type of medicine we use, and
    > dislike those that use alternative medicine and
    > promote healing which is to find the root of the
    > medical problem instead of masking it with drugs.

    You're the one who's clueless here, DEBBEE. Nobody's
    stopping you from using alt. treatments or posting about
    them. And your "masking it with drugs" rhetoric is just
    that. Many conditions are successfully treated (not always
    CURED) & the patient's quality of life greatly improved by
    pharmaceuticals. Just ask someone with IDDM or
    hypothyroidism if the drugs they need to take make any
    positive difference for them.

    > Some of us don't believe in being co-dependent on
    > pharmaceuticals, to make it through the day.

    "Co-dependent on pharmaceuticals"???? You're apparently not
    familiar with the term "co-dependent" -- not surprising.
    Don't want to be DEPENDENT on any meds? So don't take them,
    simple enough. Nobody cares if you do or don't.

    > I know numerous people that live with so much pain every
    > day, that in order to make it through the day, they have
    > to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last. Is
    > this any kind of life for these people?

    Learning about different types of pain might enlighten you.
    Some types of pain respond well to alt. therapies, some to a
    combo of meds & alt. treatment, & others are relieved only
    by pharmaceuticals. Considering the cause of the pain is
    important as well. If the cause can be treated successfully
    -- even if not cured -- the pain (if still present) is often
    dealt with far differently than if the underlying problem
    remains or worsens.

    > When I've asked why doesn't your doctor look for the
    > source of the pain, and do something about it...well,
    > their doctor doesn't have time, or has been told to look
    > for the "quick fix". These people are merely surviving,
    > and not living because they are being "controlled". This
    > type of sadistic behavior from doctors who allegedly took
    > an oath when they became doctors is little more than just
    > their friendly pharmaceutical company. Or what kind of
    > bonuses they've received over the years for their quick
    > appointments?

    Your silly-ass pronouncements just go on & on, DEBBEE. If a
    patient truly had a doc that didn't have time to make the
    effort to find out the etiology of their pain, they should
    see another MD. "Quick fixes" are sometimes what a patient
    demands, especially if treating the source of the pain will
    take time or effort they're not willing (or perhaps really
    not able for any number of reasons) to devote to it. In many
    cases, pain meds are prescribed only until the treatment of
    its cause makes them unecessary.

    Pain management is a fast growing part of conventional
    health care that very often includes alt. therapies.
    Exercise, chiropractic, massage, biofeedback & hypnosis, &
    other alt. treatments are frequently utilized as tools by
    those in the pain management arena. Patients are often
    referred to these docs/therapists/facilities by MD's.

    > for those that claim anti-semitism remarks about those of
    > us that are not of your faith,

    "Those of us that are not of your faith" has NOTHING to do
    with your anti-Semetic remarks, DEBBEE. People of different
    religious beliefs have commented on your anti-Semetic crap.
    Many non-Jews recognize your religious bigotry for the
    disgusting puke it is.

    > perhaps you need explain how some of your people were
    > justified in crucifying Christ,

    So the Roman guards & Pontius Pilate were Jews, eh?

    The Bible says that Jesus was sent to take the punishment
    the people of the world deserved. It wasn't a 33 year visit,
    it was a mission to die for the world's sins. He had been
    described as the "Lamb of God" & that wasn't a reference to
    Sharee Lewis' puppet, hon. The custom of sacrificing a lamb
    without blemish to God was well established -- & as the
    "lamb of God", Jesus was supposedly the *perfect* sacrifice
    needed to atone for the sins of humanity. To say that mere
    mortals determined the fate of someone you say is the son of
    God is ridiculous. According to the Bible, Jesus was
    destined to lay down his life here as a sacrifice -- He was
    here to fulfill that purpose. NOBODY -- then or now -- needs
    to "justify" anything about Jesus' life or death. The Bible
    says it was pre-ordained by God that the sacrifice of Jesus
    would happen. Christians say it did -- & while you are
    apparently confident that His sacrifice pays for your sins
    (including your anti-Semetism & making up stories here on
    MHA), you try to blame the targets of your dirty bigotry for
    the very event that you claim gives you eternal salvation!
    What a nasty booger you are, DEBBEE!

    > and why some of your people today are attempting to
    > crucify those individuals have discovering alternative
    > healing therapies that do work.
    >
    > For those that have been harassed by individuals in
    > this newsgroup that do not like alternative
    > therapies, remember, the words spoken years ago,
    > "forgive them, for they do not know what they are
    > doing." They are attempting to crucify methods that
    > work, because they do not understand, and for which
    > there is no financial gain for themselves or their
    > friends...

    Trying to compare the crucifixion to the back & forth
    here on MHA is beyond a pathetic exaggeration. It is
    something you should ask forgiveness for. And your
    outright lying statments WRT the reasons some here don't
    blindly accept whatever they are told by those promoting
    alt. therapies of questionable efficacy to make a buck
    (or to air their opinion that *some* eeeevil conspiracy
    is afoot) will require some more of that forgiveness you
    blame the Jews for.

    > A question to those that continue to harass...is it
    > THAT important for you to be sitting on what you
    > have been led to believe is the "right side of the
    > fence", or would you rather back down, and THINK for
    > yourself before denouncing therapies for which you
    > have no personal experience, and for which others
    > have

    Thinking for one's self is the reason many here debate some
    of the alt. ideas touted on MHA. Research, evidence of
    *some* sort besides the sales pitch of someone whose claims
    show a glaring deficit of accurate information about A&P and
    basic physiology -- or the vague story of someone's personal
    "miracle" that meets questions about the claim with little
    or nothing in the way of direct answers -- is helpful in
    weighing the pros & cons of a therapy as well as evaluating
    the believability of the information presented as fact.

    >.....the choice is yours, but remember if you choose
    >the wrong
    choice, you
    > may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as the
    > rest of us have, when there is no form of conventional
    > medicine that will work for you, and then what will you do
    > then...die....or try an alternative?

    Many here have combined effective alt. therapies with
    conventional medicine. Some of us believe in trying the
    simplest, least invasive treatments for a health problem
    first. Nobody should simply believe claims of "miracles"
    when it becomes apparent that there is little or nothing to
    indicate the claims are true. Unfortunately, there are
    plenty of folks willing to empty the pockets of desperate
    people for nothing but disappointment. [This isn't limited
    to alt. practitioners. There are honest & dishonest people
    in both conventional & alt. health care. The advantage with
    conventional medicine is that it is easier to gather
    information about it to assess than it is with alt.
    therapies.]

    > I chose trying alternative therapies....what will
    > you try?

    Some maladies consistently respond very well to a particular
    treatment, be it alt. or conventional. In such cases, it
    makes sense to utilize that treatment. In other instances,
    patients have to do their homework, ask questions & analyze
    the answers, & weigh all the factors involved.
     
  9. "Rich Shewmaker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "DEBBEE1023" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
    > > newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
    > > agenda with those that have chosen
    to
    > use
    > > some form of alternative medicine?
    >
    > Actually, the "agenda" is to defend the scientific method
    > and rational thought against the magical thinking and
    > superstition of the alties. There is as much "stone
    > throwing" from the other side as from us debunkers and
    > more personal invective.
    >
    >
    >
    > > It reminds me of a certain group of individuals, who
    > > stand to lose
    > financial
    > > gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies
    > > and how they do
    > work.
    >
    > Contrary to the beliefs of a few here, NOBODY gets paid to
    > post to this newsgroup. And nothing posted here reaches a
    > wide enough audience to
    affect
    > the income of anybody.
    >
    >
    > > Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
    > > healing powers, that
    > made
    > > them so insanely jealous.
    >
    > What healing powers?
    >
    >
    > > And for the fact, that conventional medicine is not
    > > getting every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not
    > > the real
    reason,
    > some
    > > of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
    > > individual that has
    > the
    > > guts to step up to the plate, and state how alternative
    > > medicine has
    > helped
    > > them?
    >
    > We don't want to "destroy" individuals. We just want to
    > shoot down silly ideas.
    >
    >
    > > Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms we
    > > have to choose
    what
    > type
    > > of medicine we use, and dislike those that use
    > > alternative medicine and
    > promote
    > > healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
    > > instead of
    > masking it
    > > with drugs.
    >
    > "Find the root of the medical problem"? One of the biggest
    > problems with altie quackery is that its practitioners do
    > not do a proper diagnosis. If they are selling chelation,
    > everybody's problem is one that can be treated with
    > chelation; if they are chiropractors, everyone is
    > diagnosed "subluxations"; homeopathy ignores diagnosis
    > entirely and treats the symptoms specifically; etc. NONE
    > of the "alternatives" is well enough founded in knowledge
    > of anatomy and physiology to really find the root of
    a
    > disease. Conventional medicine is.

    Your mistaken, please read 'Organon of Medicine', by Semuel
    Hahnemann and 'The Science of Homeopathy', by George
    Vithoulkas before you comment on Homeopathy; remember a
    little knowledge is always dangerous.

    > > Some of us don't believe in being co-dependent on
    > > pharmaceuticals, to make it through the day. I know
    > > numerous people that live with so
    much
    > pain
    > > every day, that in order to make it through the day,
    > > they have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to
    > > last. Is this any kind of life
    for
    > > these people? When I've asked why doesn't your doctor
    > > look for the
    source
    > of
    > > the pain, and do something about it...well, their doctor
    > > doesn't have
    > time, or
    > > has been told to look for the "quick fix". These people
    > > are merely
    > surviving,
    > > and not living because they are being "controlled".
    >
    > When medical professionals can treat the cause of pain
    > they do. Most of
    the
    > people who come to my emergency room in pain leave pain
    > free, and not just because we gave them drugs.
    > Unfortunately, there are people with chronic pain from
    > incurable conditions. For them, long term medication is
    > often an important part of a pain management regime. The
    > altie quacks can do no better at "looking for the source
    > of the pain."
    >
    >
    > > This type of sadistic behavior from doctors who
    > > allegedly took an oath when they became
    doctors
    > is
    > > little more than just their friendly pharmaceutical
    > > company.
    >
    > Sadistic behavior? Treating pain is sadistic?
    >
    > > Or what kind of bonuses they've received over the years
    > > for their quick appointments? For those that claim anti-
    > > semitism remarks about those of us that are
    not
    > of
    > > your faith, perhaps you need explain how some of your
    > > people were
    > justified in
    > > crucifying Christ, and why some of your people today are
    > > attempting to
    > crucify
    > > those individuals have discovering alternative healing
    > > therapies that do
    > work.
    >
    >
    > "...some of your people were justified in crucifying
    > Christ"? You anti-Semites never let up, do you?
    >
    >
    > >
    > > For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
    > > newsgroup that
    do
    > not
    > > like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
    > > years ago,
    "forgive
    > > them, for they do not know what they are doing." They
    > > are attempting to crucify methods that work, because
    > > they do not understand, and for which
    > there
    > > is no financial gain for themselves or their friends...
    > > A question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
    > > important for
    > you to
    > > be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
    > > "right side of
    the
    > > fence", or would you rather back down, and THINK for
    > > yourself before
    > denouncing
    > > therapies for which you have no personal experience, and
    > > for which
    others
    > > have.....the choice is yours, but remember if you choose
    > > the wrong
    choice,
    > you
    > > may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as
    > > the rest of us
    have,
    > > when there is no form of conventional medicine that will
    > > work for you,
    and
    > then
    > > what will you do then...die....or try an alternative? I
    > > chose trying alternative therapies....what will you try?
    >
    > Are you implying that YOU ("rest of us") have found
    > yourself dying,
    forsaken
    > by conventional medicine, and compelled to choose an
    > alternative to save
    you
    > life? Tell us the story.
    >
    > --Rich
     
  10. Debbee1023

    Debbee1023 Guest

    << Actually, the "agenda" is to defend the scientific method
    and rational thought against the magical thinking and
    superstition of the alties. There is as much "stone
    throwing" from the other side as from us debunkers and more
    personal invective.
    >>
    What "scientific method" are you referring to, as with
    alternative medicine there are many things that cannot be
    proven using scientific evidence...for exampe, read this
    dude's comments about some of the specific arguments that
    several of you have made here that hold very little
    substance....

    http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:AexkRPpgFgMJ:www.natur-
    alhealing.com.h
    k/.htm+throwing+stones+at+alternative+medicine&hl=en&ie=UTF-
    8

    << Contrary to the beliefs of a few here, NOBODY gets paid
    to post to this newsgroup. And nothing posted here reaches a
    wide enough audience to affect the income of anybody. >>

    Wow, that really surprises me. Then, why are a number of
    individuals so quick to shoot down alternative therapies?
    What would be the reason behind doing this, and why not just
    do something else with their time? They don't care for
    alternative therapies, and made reference to their position
    over and over and over again....Perhaps they are trying to
    make a name for themselves using Usenet newsgroups, then?

    << What healing powers? >>

    Obviously, you haven't read the New Testament lately.

    << We don't want to "destroy" individuals. We just want to
    shoot down silly ideas. >>

    Wow, that's "news" to me, and where do you get off stating
    that these ideas are silly in the first place? Tell what
    personal experience you have in all of alternative
    medicine...I know there are people here that have agendas
    claiming that a loved one died from using an alternative
    form of medicine. However, it is my understanding that
    people were probably going to die anyways, and this was
    their last chance at finding something that could work. So
    instead of admitting this, they have gone out of their way
    to try to destroy alternative therapies. They have hidden
    agendas, one could say.

    << "Find the root of the medical problem"? One of the
    biggest problems with altie quackery is that its
    practitioners do not do a proper diagnosis. >>

    Wow, that's such an inaccurate statement if I ever heard
    one. You are making a claim about all alternative
    practictioners, and thinking that all of them may be like
    this. You are completely "off base".

    << NONE of the "alternatives" is well enough founded in
    knowledge of anatomy and physiology to really find the root
    of a disease. Conventional medicine is.
    >>

    Conventional medicine is not. You are making a blanket
    statement and attempting to "cover" all bases. How many
    people do you think go to a doctor, and are properly
    diagnosed 100% of the time on their first visit with the
    right drugs or therapies for the job, and they are
    mysteriously healed immediately?

    Give me a break....this is so far off base that it is
    hilarious...

    >>When medical professionals can treat the cause of pain
    >>they do. Most of the
    people who come to my emergency room in pain leave pain
    free, and not just because we gave them drugs.
    Unfortunately, there are people with chronic pain from
    incurable conditions. For them, long term medication is
    often an important part of a pain management regime. The
    altie quacks can do no better at "looking for the source of
    the pain."<<<

    Do tell what your emergency room does that others in this
    country do not do, besides load people up with either pain
    shots or drugs, so when they leave, they live pain free? I
    want to know what your emergency room does, so perhaps your
    emergency room can serve as a model for others in the
    country that do not practice the same methods as yours. If
    there are people with chronic pain from incurable
    conditions...why isn't conventional medicine working on
    those problems? Do you even understand what you are stating
    here? You've just admitted that conventional medicine cannot
    help everyone. Do you even know why there is a problem with
    drug abuse in this country? It starts much of the time with
    people being so doped up on pain killers, and having to get
    more when the doses don't work for them. Case in point...I
    have a friend with arthritis, she was being given bucoo
    doses of pain pills to get rid of the pain...and lost her
    job because she was "dopey" all of the time...she decided to
    go the alternative route; cleaning up her eating habits,
    drinking more water, got into chiropractic care, and got off
    of the drugs...and her arthritis pain is gone... In fact,
    more and more conventional doctors are looking at
    alternative sources for helping people... << Sadistic
    behavior? Treating pain is sadistic? >> Keeping people doped
    up is sadistic, and not looking to find what is really wrong
    with an individual, whether it be stress, depression, or an
    actual physical problem that could be corrected by surgery,
    or cleaning up one's lifestyle....keeping someone on pain
    pills 24/7 means they are merely "surviving", and not
    "living"....

    << "...some of your people were justified in crucifying
    Christ"? You anti-Semites never let up, do you? >>

    You again, as usual with this group have missed
    the point...check out the wording..."some of your
    people".....did some of your ancestors, not
    crucify Christ?

    << Are you implying that YOU ("rest of us") have found
    yourself dying, forsaken by conventional medicine, and
    compelled to choose an alternative to save you life? Tell us
    the story. >> There wasn't a "magic pill" or therapy issued
    by conventional medicine for what ailed me. Conventional
    doctors didn't know what to do for me, and suggested
    alternative medicine as another source. My conventional
    doctor worked with my complementary physician, and both
    doctors are pleased at my success story....


    "If you're gonna walk on thin ice, you may as well dance."
    (Jessie Winchester).
     
  11. Debbee1023

    Debbee1023 Guest

    << Ever notice that those who are fighting against those
    bringing a semblence of reason and fact to the health care
    issue seem to be unable to argue against rational fact and
    science, and must instead stoop to cheap bigoted insults in
    the place of a cogent argument? >>

    Stop throwing stones, Andrew...your ignorance is
    showing...

    << It reminds me of a certain group of individuals who felt
    frustrated by their failures in life, and began to
    consolidate power through the blame of others, rather than
    focus on their own shortcomings. >>

    I suppose you are referring to yourself, right? If so, I
    agree 100%.

    << As a free marketeer, I wholly believe in more competition
    in the marketplace. But I am not willing to allow dishonest
    charlatans to prey on the health of foolish and sometimes
    desperate individuals. >>

    Worry about yourself, and let the rest of us worry about
    ourselves...this isn't your job....because every individual
    is unique, and every one's body is different, just like with
    conventional medicine, what may work for some, does not work
    for everyone...

    << And some of you are absolutely clueless about the
    freedoms we have to state what we think is wrong with your
    choices, and, more importantly, your root beliefs about the
    nature of others.
    >>

    see last answer...worry about yourself...not anyone
    else...it isn't your job...

    << Obviously, you don't know any physicians.
    >>

    I do....Christian ones...

    << Fine, that's your choice. You can freely choose to take
    whatever risks that you want with your own health and safety
    - as long as you are freely informed as to the risks that
    you are going to undertake. >>

    I have been all along...not only have I been informed by
    alternative practitioners, but by conventional
    practictioners, and then I've researched on my own. That's
    why I took myself off of prednisone, because the
    conventional doctor, failed to give me all of the
    risks...and when it wasn't working, she upped the dosage,
    and made me very ill...and told me I had to take that
    amount...and I told her to go hell...and took myself off of
    it, and I got better...

    << Unfortunately, with many alternative therapies, you are
    not privy to that information. >>

    Anyone can get information about anything...

    << It's a better life than the desperation of wasting
    prodigious sums of money on "miracle cures" that don't
    work, leaving them still in pain, poorer, and in some
    cases, in worse physical shape as a result of the so-called
    "miracle". >>

    And who are you to judge if this stuff works or not? Did
    something tell you that it doesn't work, and so therefore
    you believe that it doesn't work for everyone?

    << Doubtful. Not only are doctors trained specifically to
    find the root cause of an ailment, under the HMO system the
    quickest route towards curing is to find that root cause. >>

    I do not believe you....

    << Again, you obviously don't know any doctors. >>

    Try again, PAL....that I do....obviously, you have gotten
    wrong information...some of us are well informed.

    << Ah, and here we get to the root of Debbee's problem
    ailment: her belief that the Jews of today are somehow to
    blame for the actions of a very few individuals 2000
    years ago. >>

    And here we get to the root of your problem....every time
    anyone makes a statement such as I have, you yell anti-
    semitic....who are you fooling??

    << According to the New Testament, Jesus Christ had to die.
    So your anger at the Jews is misplaced and misguided. >>

    I'm not angry...you've again, missed the point...

    << But thank you once again for demonstrating your bigoted
    ignorance. >>

    Thank you for your comments....you've again demonstrated,
    one of the very reasons I dislike you as much as I do....


    "If you're gonna walk on thin ice, you may as well dance."
    (Jessie Winchester).
     
  12. Kim

    Kim Guest

    "DEBBEE1023" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
    > newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
    > agenda with those that have chosen to
    use
    > some form of alternative medicine?

    What alternatives are being used for diabetes these days? I
    have an off-line male friend who watches his blood-sugar,
    takes his insulin and still feels ill most of the time. He
    may also lose one foot. Any suggestions? I'll print them out
    and pass them along to him. Or can you recommend a Website?

    > It reminds me of a certain group of individuals, who
    > stand to lose
    financial
    > gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies and
    > how they do
    work.
    > Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
    > healing powers, that
    made
    > them so insanely jealous.

    But they did have alternative medications back in Jesus
    time, even before - did they not? If so they were curing all
    manner of ailments and disease and Jesus would have made no
    difference with HIS cures.

    And for the fact, that conventional medicine is not
    > getting every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not
    > the real reason,
    some
    > of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
    > individual that has
    the
    > guts to step up to the plate, and state how alternative
    > medicine has
    helped
    > them?

    I think most people are skeptical because anyone can make
    any claim they so chose. That doesn't make it true. I can
    come here and claim raw onions cured my pneumonia - that
    doesn't make it true. I may never have had pneumonia at all.
    Perhaps it was just a bad chest cold. Why should anyone
    believe what someone "claims" where health and life are at
    stake? Claiming something helped them is one thing, but it
    looks like some people claim it CURED them of
    illnesses/disease they were never really diagnosed as
    having. Also, keep in mind many illnesses take care of
    themselves given time. Any herb/cure/cleanse taken or not
    taken may have had no effect at all in the outcome.

    > Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms we have
    > to choose what
    type
    > of medicine we use, and dislike those that use alternative
    > medicine and
    promote
    > healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
    > instead of
    masking it
    > with drugs. Some of us don't believe in being co-
    > dependent on
    pharmaceuticals,
    > to make it through the day.

    But many who believe in alt health issues DO indeed take a
    lot of products to make it through their day. And I'm
    talking about large numbers of vitamins and minerals, green
    tea, any assortment of herbs etc.

    I know numerous people that live with so much pain
    > every day, that in order to make it through the day, they
    > have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last.
    > Is this any kind of life for these people?

    What would their alternative be? What natural pain killers
    are out there? Not everyone has access to willow trees to
    make their own natural Aspirin/painkiller.

    When I've asked why doesn't your doctor look for the source
    of
    > the pain, and do something about it...well, their doctor
    > doesn't have
    time, or
    > has been told to look for the "quick fix". These people
    > are merely
    surviving,
    > and not living because they are being "controlled". This
    > type of sadistic behavior from doctors who allegedly took
    > an oath when they became doctors
    is
    > little more than just their friendly pharmaceutical
    > company.

    What does the Dr's time have to do with it? The Dr can send
    the person for tests of various kinds to try and locate the
    source of the pain.

    Or what kind of
    > bonuses they've received over the years for their quick
    > appointments? For those that claim anti-semitism remarks
    > about those of us that are not
    of
    > your faith, perhaps you need explain how some of your
    > people were
    justified in
    > crucifying Christ, and why some of your people today are
    > attempting to
    crucify
    > those individuals have discovering alternative healing
    > therapies that do
    work.

    This is absurd and smacks of anti-semitism. What has
    Christ's death got to do with our Dr's today and their
    religious beliefs? Christ died over 2000 years ago. This
    shouldn't even be mentioned on this NG.

    > For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
    > newsgroup that do
    not
    > like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
    > years ago, "forgive them, for they do not know what
    > they are doing." They are attempting to crucify methods
    > that work,

    Please enlighten me as to which alt methods work that are
    being hidden from the rest of us. You can be brief. I truly
    want to know.

    because they do not understand, and for which there
    > is no financial gain for themselves or their friends... A
    > question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
    > important for
    you to
    > be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
    > "right side of the fence", or would you rather back down,
    > and THINK for yourself before
    denouncing
    > therapies for which you have no personal experience, and
    > for which others have.....

    And if the proof is there how can Dr's/medical
    schools/researchers etc. deny it? I'm assuming there is
    proof and not simply anecdotal evidence or simply personal
    claims (see above.)

    the choice is yours, but remember if you choose the wrong
    choice, you
    > may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as the
    > rest of us have, when there is no form of conventional
    > medicine that will work for you, and
    then
    > what will you do then...die....or try an alternative? I
    > chose trying alternative therapies....what will you try?

    What do you recommend my friend do, or look into re' his
    diabetes and possible loss of his foot? Also what about my
    hypothyroidism? What other alternatives are there besides
    the Levoxyl?

    Kim
     
  13. Kim

    Kim Guest

    "DEBBEE1023" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]>
    > Conventional medicine is not. You are making a blanket
    > statement and attempting to "cover" all bases. How many
    > people do you think go to a
    doctor,
    > and are properly diagnosed 100% of the time on their first
    > visit with the
    right
    > drugs or therapies for the job, and they are
    > mysteriously healed
    immediately?

    Here I agree with YOU. It took many Dr's before my
    endometriosis was discovered. Everything was diagnosed from
    frigidity to ovarian cysts and all the Dr's were wrong. I
    did the Dr to Dr routine as so many others have before me. I
    understand the frustration and anger some people feel for
    conventional medical Drs. In desperation I finally went to a
    mainline teaching hospital in my state (my Ins allowed this
    as they were losing money with all the Dr's I was seeing)
    and there the REAL problem was finally discovered. Why did
    it take so long? When I developed hypothyroidism with all
    the classic symptoms I had the SAME problem. This time I
    dropped Dr #1 quickly and went to Dr #2 - and he got it
    right! I was lucky that #2 was knowledgeable enough to
    suspect the problem right off the bat. #1 never listened to
    hear all the symptoms I was having. I thought I would have
    to go from Dr to Dr all over again. But what about all those
    gynecologists???? As far as I know there is no alt treatment
    for endometriosis.

    My conventional doctor
    > worked with my complementary physician, and both doctors
    > are pleased at my success story....

    Which unfortunately I have not heard.

    Kim
     
  14. Kimmer

    Kimmer Guest

    > <<
    > Ah, and here we get to the root of Debbee's problem ailment: her
    belief that
    > the Jews of today are somehow to blame for the actions of
    > a very few individuals 2000 years ago. >>
    >
    > And here we get to the root of your problem....every time
    > anyone makes
    a
    > statement such as I have, you yell anti-
    > semitic....who are you
    fooling??

    Okay, Debbee, why exactly did you phrase it like that? I've
    seen this kind of crap from you before, so it's not just
    this person who sees it. You might want to re-read your
    Bible to learn just who actually did the actual
    crucifying...the Romans. Yes, that's right. Crucifixion was
    a Roman form of punishment. If he had been killed by Jews he
    would have been stoned to death, and that form of death
    wasn't bloody enough for the god of the Bible, who had
    ordered his people to kill every living thing in a land just
    to appease him. (that's in the Old Testament, as you
    probably conveniently forget all about the massive murder
    and bloodshed committed by the chosen people for this
    incredible bloodthirsty god, as has just about every other
    'Christian' - in quotes to designate those who appear to be
    Christian in name only and not the truly loving and
    accepting Christians I know - I've encountered in my life).

    You also seem to think that the New Testament is actual 100%
    historic fact. Guess again. The gospels are known to have
    been written about 40 years after the events described, and
    also well after the writings of Paul. There is not a single
    eyewitness account in them.

    This doesn't mean that the lessons to be learned in these
    accounts aren't good, just that since there's no other
    historical evidence for any of the actual events, one really
    should not claim the Bible as a definitive source.

    Kimmer
     
  15. Jan

    Jan Guest

    >Subject: Re: Crucifying Alternative Medicine
    >From: "Bew" [email protected]
    >Date: 3/7/2004 5:06 AM Pacific Standard Time
    >Message-id: <[email protected]>
    >
    >
    >"DEBBEE1023" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
    >> newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
    >> agenda with those that have chosen to
    >use
    >> some form of alternative medicine? It reminds me of a
    >> certain group of individuals, who stand to lose
    >financial
    >> gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies and
    >> how they do
    >work.
    >> Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
    >> healing powers, that
    >made
    >> them so insanely jealous. And for the fact, that
    >> conventional medicine
    >is not
    >> getting every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not
    >> the real reason,
    >some
    >> of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
    >> individual that has
    >the
    >> guts to step up to the plate, and state how alternative
    >> medicine has
    >helped
    >> them? Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms
    >> we have to choose what
    >type
    >> of medicine we use, and dislike those that use
    >> alternative medicine and
    >promote
    >> healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
    >> instead of
    >masking it
    >> with drugs. Some of us don't believe in being co-
    >> dependent on
    >pharmaceuticals,
    >> to make it through the day. I know numerous people that
    >> live with so much
    >pain
    >> every day, that in order to make it through the day, they
    >> have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last.
    >> Is this any kind of life for these people? When I've
    >> asked why doesn't your doctor look for the source
    >of
    >> the pain, and do something about it...well, their doctor
    >> doesn't have
    >time, or
    >> has been told to look for the "quick fix". These people
    >> are merely
    >surviving,
    >> and not living because they are being "controlled". This
    >> type of sadistic behavior from doctors who allegedly took
    >> an oath when they became doctors
    >is
    >> little more than just their friendly pharmaceutical
    >> company. Or what kind
    >of
    >> bonuses they've received over the years for their quick
    >> appointments? For those that claim anti-semitism remarks
    >> about those of us that are not
    >of
    >> your faith, perhaps you need explain how some of your
    >> people were
    >justified in
    >> crucifying Christ, and why some of your people today are
    >> attempting to
    >crucify
    >> those individuals have discovering alternative healing
    >> therapies that do
    >work.
    >>
    >> For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
    >> newsgroup that do
    >not
    >> like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
    >> years ago, "forgive them, for they do not know what they
    >> are doing." They are attempting to crucify methods that
    >> work, because they do not understand, and for which
    >there
    >> is no financial gain for themselves or their friends... A
    >> question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
    >> important for
    >you to
    >> be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
    >> "right side of the fence", or would you rather back down,
    >> and THINK for yourself before
    >denouncing
    >> therapies for which you have no personal experience, and
    >> for which others have.....the choice is yours, but
    >> remember if you choose the wrong choice,
    >you
    >> may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as the
    >> rest of us have, when there is no form of conventional
    >> medicine that will work for you, and
    >then
    >> what will you do then...die....or try an alternative? I
    >> chose trying alternative therapies....what will you try?
    >
    >''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''-
    >''''''''''''''''''
    >''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
    >
    >Good post , well said . Bew

    I'll second that.

    Now watch for a flood of *anti-semitism* *racist* *fascist*
    *Nazi* *bigot* *cult* *$$$cientology* etc., etc.current buzz
    words to belittle to follow

    Jan
     
  16. Jan

    Jan Guest

    >Subject: Re: Crucifying Alternative Medicine
    >From: "Anth" [email protected]
    >Date: 3/7/2004 5:45 AM Pacific Standard Time
    >Message-id: <[email protected]>
    >
    >Yup like Barret 'ignore the evidence Barret' because it
    >suits me sir. When the 'Quackbusters' can't destroy the
    >treatment they go on a witch hunt for the people who
    >give it. Anth

    We have seen these examples HERE over and over.

    Jan

    >"DEBBEE1023" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
    >> newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have an
    >> agenda with those that have chosen to
    >use
    >> some form of alternative medicine? It reminds me of a
    >> certain group of individuals, who stand to lose
    >financial
    >> gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies and
    >> how they do
    >work.
    >> Just like with Jesus, it is over "pure jealousy" of
    >> healing powers, that
    >made
    >> them so insanely jealous. And for the fact, that
    >> conventional medicine
    >is not
    >> getting every dollar. Is this not true, and is this not
    >> the real reason,
    >some
    >> of you are hell bent on attempting to destroy every
    >> individual that has
    >the
    >> guts to step up to the plate, and state how alternative
    >> medicine has
    >helped
    >> them? Some of you are absolutely clueless about freedoms
    >> we have to choose what
    >type
    >> of medicine we use, and dislike those that use
    >> alternative medicine and
    >promote
    >> healing which is to find the root of the medical problem
    >> instead of
    >masking it
    >> with drugs. Some of us don't believe in being co-
    >> dependent on
    >pharmaceuticals,
    >> to make it through the day. I know numerous people that
    >> live with so much
    >pain
    >> every day, that in order to make it through the day, they
    >> have to keep themselves doped up on pain killers to last.
    >> Is this any kind of life for these people? When I've
    >> asked why doesn't your doctor look for the source
    >of
    >> the pain, and do something about it...well, their doctor
    >> doesn't have
    >time, or
    >> has been told to look for the "quick fix". These people
    >> are merely
    >surviving,
    >> and not living because they are being "controlled". This
    >> type of sadistic behavior from doctors who allegedly took
    >> an oath when they became doctors
    >is
    >> little more than just their friendly pharmaceutical
    >> company. Or what kind
    >of
    >> bonuses they've received over the years for their quick
    >> appointments? For those that claim anti-semitism remarks
    >> about those of us that are not
    >of
    >> your faith, perhaps you need explain how some of your
    >> people were
    >justified in
    >> crucifying Christ, and why some of your people today are
    >> attempting to
    >crucify
    >> those individuals have discovering alternative healing
    >> therapies that do
    >work.
    >>
    >> For those that have been harassed by individuals in this
    >> newsgroup that do
    >not
    >> like alternative therapies, remember, the words spoken
    >> years ago, "forgive them, for they do not know what they
    >> are doing." They are attempting to crucify methods that
    >> work, because they do not understand, and for which
    >there
    >> is no financial gain for themselves or their friends... A
    >> question to those that continue to harass...is it THAT
    >> important for
    >you to
    >> be sitting on what you have been led to believe is the
    >> "right side of the fence", or would you rather back down,
    >> and THINK for yourself before
    >denouncing
    >> therapies for which you have no personal experience, and
    >> for which others have.....the choice is yours, but
    >> remember if you choose the wrong choice,
    >you
    >> may find yourself in a situation later on in life, as the
    >> rest of us have, when there is no form of conventional
    >> medicine that will work for you, and
    >then
    >> what will you do then...die....or try an alternative? I
    >> chose trying alternative therapies....what will you try?
    >>
    >>
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
     
  17. Jan

    Jan Guest

    >Subject: Re: Crucifying Alternative Medicine
    >From: Andrew Langer [email protected]
    >Date: 3/7/2004 7:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
    >Message-id: <[email protected]>
    >
    >In article <[email protected]>,
    >DEBBEE1023 says...
    >>
    >> Ever notice those that regularly cast stones in this
    >> newsgroup against alternative medicine seem to have
    >> an agenda with those that have chosen to
    >use
    >>some form of alternative medicine?
    >
    >Ever notice that those who

    Don't answer a question, but ask another question?

    <snip>

    > cheap bigoted insult

    ZZzz.

    Like Andy's Nazi-girl.

    <snip>

    >It reminds me of a certain group of individuals, who stand
    >to lose financial
    >>gain if the word gets out about alternative therapies and
    >>how they do work.

    >It reminds me of a certain group of individuals who felt
    >frustrated by their failures in life, and began to
    >consolidate power through the blame of others, rather than
    >focus on their own shortcomings.

    ME 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    That group being the *gang*

    <snip>

    > Jews of today are somehow to blame for the actions of a
    > very few individuals 2000 years ago.

    ZZzz.

    > your bigoted ignorance.

    Right on cue.

    ZZzz.

    Jan
     
  18. Jan

    Jan Guest

  19. Rich.

    Rich. Guest

    On 08 Mar 2004 07:13:21 GMT, [email protected] (DEBBEE1023)
    wrote:

    ><< You might want to re-read your Bible to learn just who
    >actually did the actual crucifying...the Romans. >>
    >
    >Wrong pal, and the Jews...

    Debbee seems sure about that. Funny because she was not
    there. With respect to the holocaust Debbee questioned
    whether it really happened to the extent claimed because she
    was not there.

    Funny how Debbee selectively believes something that
    happened THOUSANDS of YEARS ago but is skeptical of
    something that happened in the lifetime of many.

    In fact there are still survivors of the holocaust. It won't
    be too many years before the last of the survivors passes
    away. It is critical that the lesson of the holocaust not be
    lost due to ignorant bigoted anti-semites like Debbee and
    Jan who are trying to rewrite history.

    Aloha,

    Rich
    -------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------------

    The best defense to logic is ignorance
     
  20. Debbee1023

    Debbee1023 Guest

    << Word of real successes DOES get out -- all the
    time. Weeding through the "everything alternative is
    good" bullshit makes it harder to discern the truth,
    but it's there >>

    Yeah right. Sorry, but I don't believe you, because we've
    had success stories mentioned here, and those people
    trashed to death.

    << discern the truth, but it's there. "Lose financial
    gain"??? Yeah, right. As if there's no money to be made in
    alternative medicine.....LOL!! >>

    That's right, Michele, you have a business which was
    considered "alternative therapy" at one point, and I'm sure
    you are making money or you wouldn't be doing it.

    Let's see who owns the majority of the pharmaceutical
    companies in America?

    << (Not to mention that insurance companies aren't going to
    ignore effective treatments that will save them money.) >>

    Ofcourse insurance companies are accepting chiropractic, and
    wow, look at all of the numwits here that are so anti-
    chiropractic...

    << The region was -- as it still is today -- politically
    troubled.] >>

    Palestine is troubled too..it seems that there is another
    group that believes that part of Palestine should belong
    to them....

    << You're the one who's clueless here, DEBBEE. Nobody's
    stopping you from using alt. treatments or posting about
    them. And your "masking it with drugs" rhetoric is just
    that. Many conditions are successfully treated (not always
    CURED) & the patient's quality of life greatly improved by
    pharmaceuticals. Just ask someone with IDDM or
    hypothyroidism if the drugs they need to take make any
    positive difference for them.<<<<<

    ZZZZ Michele...that's what a pro-conventional person
    would say...

    << Your silly-ass pronouncements just go on & on, DEBBEE. If
    a patient truly had a doc that didn't have time to make the
    effort to find out the etiology of their pain, they should
    see another MD. "Quick fixes" are sometimes what a patient
    demands, especially if treating the source of the pain will
    take time or effort they're not willing (or perhaps really
    not able for any number of reasons) to devote to it. In many
    cases, pain meds are prescribed only until the treatment of
    its cause makes them unecessary.

    Pain management is a fast growing part of conventional
    health care that very often includes alt. therapies.
    Exercise, chiropractic, massage, biofeedback & hypnosis, &
    other alt. treatments are frequently utilized as tools by
    those in the pain management arena. Patients are often
    referred to these docs/therapists/facilities by MD's. >>

    You silly assed brain obviously doesn't comprehend too well,
    does it Michelle? What part of this did you not comprehend?
    And who do you think you are fooling?

    << "Those of us that are not of your faith" has NOTHING to
    do with your anti-Semetic remarks, DEBBEE. People of
    different religious beliefs have commented on your anti-
    Semetic crap. Many non-Jews recognize your religious bigotry
    for the disgusting puke it is. >>

    Hey, you are even a bigger puke, Michele...I dislike you for
    the person that you are, and I haven't a clue what religion
    you are..you and your buddies here, miss the points written
    by those of us that are not into those of you that think you
    are God's chosen few, and think your opinions are far
    superior than the rest.

    << What a nasty booger you are, DEBBEE! >>

    Look in the mirror, Michele.....your snot is showing..

    << And your outright lying statments WRT the reasons some
    here don't blindly accept whatever they are told by those
    promoting alt. therapies of questionable efficacy to make a
    buck (or to air their opinion that *some* eeeevil conspiracy
    is afoot) will require some more of that forgiveness you
    blame the Jews for. >>

    Are you talking about yourself, Michele, regarding
    "lying"...if so, I couldn't agree with you more....

    << Unfortunately, there are plenty of folks willing to empty
    the pockets of desperate people for nothing but
    disappointment. >>

    Just like those that you probably take money for when you do
    massage, huh?

    << The advantage with conventional medicine is that it is
    easier to gather information about it to assess than it is
    with alt. therapies.] >>

    Ofcourse, because many alternative therapies are not allowed
    in data bases, claiming "scientific evidence" is needed. Who
    do you think you are really fooling here, fool?

    << In other instances, patients have to do their homework,
    ask questions & analyze the answers, & weigh all the
    factors involved.
    >>
    And that's why some of the smart folks have chosen
    alternative therapies because there is neither a
    conventional method for what they have, or their doctors
    have not found an answer for health care problem....and
    simply don't have time to find it in 15 minutes.


    "If you're gonna walk on thin ice, you may as well dance."
    (Jessie Winchester).
     
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