Cry Baby Simeoni



No it doesn't. What is the explanation for JU's poor performances, including his inability to even reach the podium this year?
 
musette said:
Back to Simeoni. Imagine you are suing LA. What makes you think you could be part of a breakaway and not be acted upon? That sort of shows how politically inastute Simeoni was, which of course is why Simeoni sued LA in the first place. So Simeoni reaped what he sowed. :)

Even Cippolini, the leader of Simeoni's team (the person who, if Cippolini had not exited the tour earlier, Simeoni would have been obligated to work for) did not want Simeoni on the team. :D

And remember, Simeoni had some time before Simeoni and LA joined the lead group to abandon his plans and return to the peloton. So Simeoni was being selfish and drawing LA to the escapees even AFTER Simeoni knew LA was riding with him.

LA's chasing of Simeoni was not only satsifying to LA I am sure, but also it solidified LA's power as the boss of the peloton. LA signalled to all other riders that people whom LA views as having wronged him will pay and their deeds will not be soon forgotten. So, strategically for future purposes, LA's move was a good one.
its very easy running after simeoni in the 18th stage when everything is done, why didnt armstrong run after him another days simeoni has been escaped??

yes i heard that cipollini didnt want simeoni in the same team, especially after the tour of georgia, dont know what would happen between them 2, but i can assure you that very very very few us postal riders stand armstrong, hincapie and dont know who else, at least the spaniards dont
 
Miguel_garcia83 said:
its very easy running after simeoni in the 18th stage when everything is done, why didnt armstrong run after him another days simeoni has been escaped??

yes i heard that cipollini didnt want simeoni in the same team, especially after the tour of georgia, dont know what would happen between them 2, but i can assure you that very very very few us postal riders stand armstrong, hincapie and dont know who else, at least the spaniards dont

One does not squat a fly when there is more significant prey out there. One only turns to squatting a fly when one has the time and other prey have been "handled". (This analogy does not demean Simeoni. It's an analogy, not a statement Simeoni is fly-like).

I should note that LA strongly signaled a team or any other group of riders can be disadvantaged by having Simeoni with it. LA will pay attention to that group. That means Simoeni is becoming less marketable and less helpful as a rider to any group of which he is a part. :eek:
 
musette said:
One does not squat a fly when there is more significant prey out there. One only turns to squatting a fly when one has the time and other prey have been "handled".

I should note that LA strongly signaled a team or any other group of riders can be disadvantaged by having Simeoni with it. LA will pay attention to that group. That means Simoeni is becoming less marketable and less helpful as a rider to any group of which he is a part. :eek:
so you are meaning that armstrong only wanted to humillate simeoni??
very nice of him
 
No, LA wanted to prevent Simeoni from joining the breakaway and having a chance to win the stage (not that, of course, Simeoni could have won even if he alone had joined the breakaway :D)
 
limerickman said:
Well let's see, why didn't JU win the TDF since 1997.

Oh, some bloke who could only manage to finish a TDF once between 1992-1996 - returned to the peloton in 1998 and then managed to outsprint sprinters, outclimb climbers and outroul rouleurs - all after having contracted cancer, for six years between 199-2004.

In fact the one TDF he did manage to finish in 1992-1996, he was 1hr 26secs
behind the TDF winner.
But he has written two books stating that he's never used drugs and that his
performances are down to hard work, healthy eating and err, great bio-mechanics, which were totally invisible between 1992-1996 and which did not
enable to complete 3 tours de France out of four and not compete for a podium place....nor a classment jersey......nor be visible as a potential overall
Tour contender in fact.......

But it's alright once his books say that he is kosher, he has to be kosher..
so it's all right....but don't ask any questions..don't mention Ferrari..don't mention Emma O'Reilly, Swart, LeMond, David Walsh...don't mention etc etc.

This does explain.........partially explains.......well, doesn't really explain......
why JU hasn't won, but has come second since 1999, in the TDF.
By golly JU needs get with the program, everyone else is doping. God that JU must be slow. As a matter of fact (ha ha) he's been a bit slow for....somebody help me out on this one..........Six years now!
 
musette said:
Back to Simeoni. Imagine you are suing LA. What makes you think you could be part of a breakaway and not be acted upon? That sort of shows how politically inastute Simeoni was, which of course is why Simeoni sued LA in the first place. So Simeoni reaped what he sowed. :)

Even Cippolini, the leader of Simeoni's team (the person who, if Cippolini had not exited the tour earlier, Simeoni would have been obligated to work for) did not want Simeoni on the team. :D

And remember, Simeoni had some time before Simeoni and LA joined the lead group to abandon his plans and return to the peloton. So Simeoni was being selfish and drawing LA to the escapees even AFTER Simeoni knew LA was riding with him. (Of course, Simeoni's quotes to the press after the stage only continued to demonstrate how politically out of it Simeoni is. To say that what LA did was a "sin" just shows how strange Simeoni is)

LA's chasing of Simeoni was not only satsifying to LA I am sure, but also it solidified LA's power as the boss of the peloton. LA signalled to all other riders that people whom LA views as having wronged him will pay and their deeds will not be soon forgotten. So, strategically for future purposes, LA's move was a good one.

Simeoni reaped what he sowed ?
You make a lot of generalised statements.

Sorry, let's just take a step back here.
Simeoni said that Ferrari gave him drugs to use at the Italian Commission.

LA called Simeoni a liar because he (Simeoni) had told the commission that
Ferrari gave him drugs and that this somehow implicated LA's relationship
with Ferrari.
Simeoni is now suing LA for calling him a liar.

Yesterday, Simeoni goes up the road and LA marks him.
LA states on Eurosport that no one in the peloton likes Simeoni because Simeoni implicated the entire peloton.

Reaped what he sowed.
What exactly did he sow ?
And while you're an acknowledged supporter of LA - who says he's the boss of the peloton ?
 
limerickman said:
Simeoni reaped what he sowed ?
You make a lot of generalised statements.

Sorry, let's just take a step back here.
Simeoni said that Ferrari gave him drugs to use at the Italian Commission.

LA called Simeoni a liar because he (Simeoni) had told the commission that
Ferrari gave him drugs and that this somehow implicated LA's relationship
with Ferrari.
Simeoni is now suing LA for calling him a liar.

Yesterday, Simeoni goes up the road and LA marks him.
LA states on Eurosport that no one in the peloton likes Simeoni because Simeoni implicated the entire peloton.

Reaped what he sowed.
What exactly did he sow ?
And while you're an acknowledged supporter of LA - who says he's the boss of the peloton ?

"LA states on Eurosport that no one in the peloton likes Simeoni because Simeoni implicated the entire peloton" Are you so sure LA said that "no one" likes Simeoni? LA did mention the peloton's interests, but did he say "no one" liked Simeoni?

Simeoni, a domestique who is not a particularly accomplished rider in the peloton, sowed the fruits of litigating against the boss of the peloton and multiple TdF winner LA. That itself took stupidity. So he sowed = he sued LA. It's obvious LA is the boss of the peloton.

Simeoni has to be applauded for not realizing he is reaping the consequences of his own past actions. He continues to say bad things about LA, thereby sowing the seeds of future adverse consequences to himself. :)
 
musette said:
No it doesn't. What is the explanation for JU's poor performances, including his inability to even reach the podium this year?

2nd in the TDF, 5 times, is a poor performance is it ?
Either you are being disingenuous or you're completely delusional.

I have outlined the reasons in my last post as to why he came second so many times.

Eh, and while we're here - maybe you can give us some idea of your palmares ?
 
musette said:
"LA states on Eurosport that no one in the peloton likes Simeoni because Simeoni implicated the entire peloton" Are you so sure LA said that "no one" likes Simeoni? LA did mention the peloton's interests, but did he say "no one" liked Simeoni?

Simeoni, a domestique who is not a particularly accomplished rider in the peloton, sowed the fruits of litigating against the boss of the peloton and multiple TdF winner LA. That itself took stupidity. So he sowed = he sued LA. It's obvious LA is the boss of the peloton.

Simeoni has to be applauded for not realizing he is reaping the consequences of his own past actions. He continues to say bad things about LA, thereby sowing the seeds of future adverse consequences to himself. :)

Yes LA said "no one".

We shall see theoutcome of court proceedings between LA and Simeoni.
Just as we'll see if LA will go in to open court in France with David Walsh.
 
limerickman said:
2nd in the TDF, 5 times, is a poor performance is it ?
Either you are being disingenuous or you're completely delusional.

I have outlined the reasons in my last post as to why he came second so many times.

Eh, and while we're here - maybe you can give us some idea of your palmares ?

No you haven't. There's still no explanation of why JU has performed the way he has. And trying to get away from an explanation by focusing on what is "poor" or not is not going to help. Let's remove qualitative characerizations of the nature of the JU's performance. Why has JU performed the way he has? Explain why JU is a better ITTer than Basso. Explain why JU performed the way he did.

Explain why Kloden suddenly performed better this year -- is he taking substances?

Explain why Sastre performed the way he did this year.

Explain why RIDER X [insert any rider] performed the way he did in [insert any tour] in year [insert any year]. :D

Also, why have Heras and Mayo performed the way they have in this TdF. Under your argument, they must have been doping before and now they are not doping because they are afraid of tests and therefore they do not perform. This illustrates how unjustified the request for explanations really is.

UNDER THE STRANGE REQUEST FOR EXPLANATIONS IN THIS THREAD, NO RIDER COULD HAVE A CHANGE IN CIRCUMSTANCES OR PERFORMANCE WITHOUT NEEDING AN EXPLANATION. That's very strange. :D
 
musette said:
One does not squat a fly when there is more significant prey out there. One only turns to squatting a fly when one has the time and other prey have been "handled". (This analogy does not demean Simeoni. It's an analogy, not a statement Simeoni is fly-like).

I should note that LA strongly signaled a team or any other group of riders can be disadvantaged by having Simeoni with it. LA will pay attention to that group. That means Simoeni is becoming less marketable and less helpful as a rider to any group of which he is a part. :eek:

You trip yourself up constantly.

For one who is a samll fly (Simeoni) - LA has paid him a lot of attention
in this TDF and through legal proceedings.
Hasn't he Musette.

While I have your attention - are you going to give us this benefit of your cycling experience ?
 
limerickman said:
Yes LA said "no one".

We shall see theoutcome of court proceedings between LA and Simeoni.
Just as we'll see if LA will go in to open court in France with David Walsh.
we will never see lance in a court, because he is american, and if you are american you have the right or the priviledge or both of judging and not being judged
 
musette said:
No you haven't. There's still no explanation of why JU has performed the way he has. And trying to get away from an explanation by focusing on what is "poor" or not is not going to help. Let's remove qualitative characerizations of the nature of the JU's performance. Why has JU performed the way he has? Explain why JU is a better ITTer than Basso. Explain why JU performed the way he did.

Explain why Kloden suddenly performed better this year -- is he taking substances?

Explain why Sastre performed the way he did this year.

Explain why RIDER X [insert any rider] performed the way he did in [insert any tour] in year [insert any year]. :D

Also, why have Heras and Mayo performed the way they have in this TdF. Under your argument, they must have been doping before and now they are not doping because they are afraid of tests and therefore they do not perform. This illustrates how unjustified the request for explanations really is.

UNDER THE STRANGE REQUEST FOR EXPLANATIONS IN THIS THREAD, NO RIDER COULD HAVE A CHANGE IN CIRCUMSTANCES OR PERFORMANCE WITHOUT NEEDING AN EXPLANATION. That's very strange. :D
azevedo, landis, hincapie climbing!!!, rubiera, heras, since he is not in us postal
what has sastre performed? he has been 8th, 9th in 2003, 10th in 2002, whats the performance???
Basso was 7th and best youth rider, its not ilogical that he was 3rd this year
lets not compared these examples with armstrongs.......
 
musette said:
No you haven't. There's still no explanation of why JU has performed the way he has. And trying to get away from an explanation by focusing on what is "poor" or not is not going to help. Let's remove qualitative characerizations of the nature of the JU's performance. Why has JU performed the way he has? Explain why JU is a better ITTer than Basso. Explain why JU performed the way he did.

Explain why Kloden suddenly performed better this year -- is he taking substances?

Explain why Sastre performed the way he did this year.

Explain why RIDER X [insert any rider] performed the way he did in [insert any tour] in year [insert any year]. :D

Also, why have Heras and Mayo performed the way they have in this TdF. Under your argument, they must have been doping before and now they are not doping because they are afraid of tests and therefore they do not perform. This illustrates how unjustified the request for explanations really is.

UNDER THE STRANGE REQUEST FOR EXPLANATIONS IN THIS THREAD, NO RIDER COULD HAVE A CHANGE IN CIRCUMSTANCES OR PERFORMANCE WITHOUT NEEDING AN EXPLANATION. That's very strange. :D

I've touched a nerve.

I explained to you why JU has finished second to Lance Armstrong to
2003.
Oh, some bloke who could only manage to finish a TDF once between 1992-1996 - returned to the peloton in 1998 and then managed to outsprint sprinters, outclimb climbers and outroul rouleurs - all after having contracted cancer, for six years between 199-2004.

In fact the one TDF he did manage to finish in 1992-1996, he was 1hr 26secs
behind the TDF winner.
But he has written two books stating that he's never used drugs and that his
performances are down to hard work, healthy eating and err, great bio-mechanics, which were totally invisible between 1992-1996 and which did not
enable to complete 3 tours de France out of four and not compete for a podium place....nor a classment jersey......nor be visible as a potential overall
Tour contender in fact.......

But it's alright once his books say that he is kosher, he has to be kosher..
so it's all right....but don't ask any questions..don't mention Ferrari..don't mention Emma O'Reilly, Swart, LeMond, David Walsh...don't mention etc etc.

This does explain.........partially explains.......well, doesn't really explain......
why JU hasn't won, but has come second since 1999, in the TDF.

Now you want me to explain why Sastre, Kloden, Rider X have performed
as well ?
Come on, Musette.
 
I've stated on the other site (and when you had asked me in private messages on the other site) that I do not cycle. That does not mean I cannot reason or do not follow cycling. So asking for "credentials" as a means of steering attention away from the relative strengths of our arguments will not cloud the clarity of each person's arguments (or lack thereof).

Explain why JU did not podium this year.

Explain why Kloden podiums this year.

Explain why Heras did not do well.

Explain why Mayo did not do well.

Explain why Botero performed the way he did.

Explain why Guerini, who once won Alpe d'Huez, did not again win Alpe d'Huez, under your theory that a cyclist has to explain differences in performance.

Explain why Indurain failed to win six (and don't use the age argument, since your theory of a need for explanations in differences in performances in different years is in tension with developments, whether positive or negative, as a result of age).

Explain why Virenque has not won the polka dot jersey consecutively.

Explain why JU won an ITT in the TdF last year and did not win an ITT in the TdF this year.

Explain why JU won the German road championship at some point but not this year. Was JU doping in prior years and not doping this year because he was concerned about increased testing? The answer is of course not, and the absurdity of the question highlights the absurdity of the request for explanations in LA's pre-illness performance and his post-illness performance, or in performance in any situation (Situation 1) versus another situation (Situation 2). :D

Explain why Kloden won the German road championship this year.
 
musette said:
I've stated on the other site (and when you had asked me in private messages on the other site) that I do not cycle. That does not mean I cannot reason or do not follow cycling. So asking for "credentials" as a means of steering attention away from the relative strengths of our arguments will not cloud the clarity of each person's arguments (or lack thereof).

Explain why JU did not podium this year.

Explain why Kloden podiums this year.

Explain why Heras did not do well.

Explain why Mayo did not do well.

Explain why Botero performed the way he did.

Explain why Guerini, who once won Alpe d'Huez, did not again win Alpe d'Huez, under your theory that a cyclist has to explain differences in performance.

Explain why Indurain failed to win six (and don't use the age argument, since your theory of a need for explanations in differences in performances in different years is in tension with developments, whether positive or negative, as a result of age).

Explain why Virenque has not won the polka dot jersey consecutively.

Explain why JU won an ITT in the TdF last year and did not win an ITT in the TdF this year.

Explain why JU won the German road championship at some point but not this year.

Explain why Kloden won the German road championship this year.

Indeed, you do not cycle.
And it shows.

It shows because if I beat X repeatedly for a number of years - and X gets sick and comes back and beats me - I would begin to wonder.
You see I've never seen the LA situation before.
Not at amateur level or professional level.
So naturally I am suspicious.

You on the other hand - accept it at face value.
You've never raced - so I don't expect you to understand.
Improvements like this in cycling, don't happen.
Disimprovments happen all the time - thus the above question you ask is
non-sensical.

I used to get whipped by a guy - he was so good he turned professional.
Rode some major tours as well.
He retired got married.
Guess what ?
he came back to the sport 2 years ago.
And guess what ?
I beat him.
Why ?
I was using drugs ?
No.
He got married, priorites changed
He's a better cyclist than me - always was, always will be.
but I beat him 'cause he's got kids and he's not training.
That explains a fall.

I can't explain why riders didn't do well.
I'm not really interested in why they didn't do well.
I am more interested in knowing why a rider who had a very poor palmares bewteen 1992-1996 can suddenly develope a great palmares between 1998-2004.
ullrichwould have won more T'sDF bwteen 1999-2004 but for this quantum leap in performance.
As for Sastre, Kloden etc - I am not really interested in why they did/didn't
perform.
I think Miguel answered this for you anyway.
 
musette said:
I've stated on the other site (and when you had asked me in private messages on the other site) that I do not cycle. That does not mean I cannot reason or do not follow cycling. So asking for "credentials" as a means of steering attention away from the relative strengths of our arguments will not cloud the clarity of each person's arguments (or lack thereof).

Explain why JU did not podium this year.

Explain why Kloden podiums this year.

Explain why Heras did not do well.

Explain why Mayo did not do well.

Explain why Botero performed the way he did.

Explain why Guerini, who once won Alpe d'Huez, did not again win Alpe d'Huez, under your theory that a cyclist has to explain differences in performance.

Explain why Indurain failed to win six (and don't use the age argument, since your theory of a need for explanations in differences in performances in different years is in tension with developments, whether positive or negative, as a result of age).

Explain why Virenque has not won the polka dot jersey consecutively.

Explain why JU won an ITT in the TdF last year and did not win an ITT in the TdF this year.

Explain why JU won the German road championship at some point but not this year.

Explain why Kloden won the German road championship this year.
well, not get me wrong but some of these questions are a bit stupid..
ullrich didnt podium this year because he was not the first half of tuor, his team did bad at the TTT, and he wasnt good at the pyrenees and had too much time lost with basso, kloden and armstrong, impossible to recover
kloden has podium because he hasnt failed, although he hasnt been on top and because many riders did fail, ullrich, mayo, hamilton...
heras didnt do well because he is not good, he is overestimated
i dont know why mayo did bad, some said that the 4 minutes he lost in wasqueal affected him psichologically, its a mistery, not even at euskaltel team know what happened to him
what perfomance has botero had? he was 7th in tour of france 2000 because he got long breakaways with dekker and some others that made him got that good place, 8th in 2001, and 4th in 2002, nothing conpared to lance armstrongs
the question about guerini has no sense
indurain failed in 1996 because road to les arcs, there was an infernal weather, he was too wrapped up and got a .... i dont know the name in english, so he lost all his chances of win in les arcs, plus he couldnt follow riis ( monsieur 60% ) in hautacam nor larrau
the other questions are stupid
 
Miguel_garcia83 said:
well, not get me wrong but some of these questions are a bit stupid..
ullrich didnt podium this year because he was not the first half of tuor, his team did bad at the TTT, and he wasnt good at the pyrenees and had too much time lost with basso, kloden and armstrong, impossible to recover
kloden has podium because he hasnt failed, although he hasnt been on top and because many riders did fail, ullrich, mayo, hamilton...
heras didnt do well because he is not good, he is overestimated
i dont know why mayo did bad, some said that the 4 minutes he lost in wasqueal affected him psichologically, its a mistery, not even at euskaltel team know what happened to him
what perfomance has botero had? he was 7th in tour of france 2000 because he got long breakaways with dekker and some others that made him got that good place, 8th in 2001, and 4th in 2002, nothing conpared to lance armstrongs
the question about guerini has no sense
indurain failed in 1996 because road to les arcs, there was an infernal weather, he was too wrapped up and got a .... i dont know the name in english, so he lost all his chances of win in les arcs, plus he couldnt follow riis ( monsieur 60% ) in hautacam nor larrau
the other questions are stupid

Miguel,

I wouldn't have bothered to answer Musette on this because quite frankly she is a cheerleader for LA and cannot abide criticism of him by anyone.
(long history here - she was on another site posing as an JU supporter when in fact she posted tracts of information endorsing LA - so to go to the bother of answering her inane questions is a waste of time in this instance).
 
The request for explanations in the case of LA, JU, Kloden, Mayo and Heras is all equally misguided. Obviously, each year, each rider improves or deteriorates or stays the same, and faces different circumstances.

The explanations purported fo rJU's differences in performance are as persuasive (or not) as the explanations already set forth in this thread for LA's performances. The bottom line is that strong allegations call for strong evidence, which is lacking, causing people to have to try and distract opthers from the absence of such evidence by asking for explanations as to improved performance. Give me a break. :D
 

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