Cry Baby Simeoni
- Thread starter StarryMan
- Start date
musette said:Viewers of the threads who are posting will see for themselves who has the better argument, and who is making strange requests for explanations.
So you believe that Armstrong is entirely clean ?
well, i just tried to mean what indurain said on the radio in spain, normally if you lose weight you lose powerTed B said:
what is the weight of ullrich when he is fit? thats the weight that counts i reckon, not the weight in christmas
limerickman said:
That does not change the fact that like LA, Indurain's name was scarcely mentioned until his lone stage break in the '89 tour. Until that time, he was a non-issue and not considered as a real contender until '90...some five years after his first TdF.
Some greats did not race the TdF until they felt they were able to win it (e.g. Hinault, Lemond). Others struggled with it from early in their carreers (Indurain, Armstrong). In no way does this prove drug use.
limerickman said:
Very easily, I've read both of his books, where he goes into detail in the apparent chronological development of his medical condition. Perhaps you should consider them for your reading list before you comment.
limerickman said:
Lance Armstrong from '92-'96:
1996
1st . Flèche Wallonne
1st . five stages, Tour DuPont
1st . overall, Tour DuPont
2nd . three stages, Paris-Nice
2nd . overall, Paris-Nice
2nd . Liège-Bastogne-Liège
2nd . overall, Paris-Nice
2nd . GP Eddy Merckx
2nd . overall, Tour of Holland
4th . Leeds International Classic
4th . GP Suisse
6th . time trial, Olympic Games
7th . overall, World Cup standings
12th . road race, Olympic Games
1995
1st . stage, Tour de France
1st . Clasica San Sebastian
1st . three stages, Tour DuPont
1st . overall, Tour DuPont
1st . stage, Paris-Nice
1st . overall, Kmart Classic
1st . stage, Kmart Classic
1st . Tour of America race series
2nd . stage, Tour de France
2nd . Thrift Drug Classic
5th . CoreStates US Pro Championship
6th . Liège-Bastogne-Liège
10th . overall, World Cup standings
36th . overall, Tour de France
1994
1st . Thrift Drug Classic
1st . stage, Tour DuPont
2nd . overall, Tour DuPont
2nd . Liège-Bastogne-Liège
2nd . Clasica San Sebastian
6th . overall, World Cup standings
7th . overall, Tour of Switzerland
7th . road race, World Championships
1993
1st . road race, World Championships
1st . stage, Tour de France
1st . CoreStates US Pro Championship
1st . Trophee Laigueglia
1st . Thrift Drug Classic
1st . stage, Tour DuPont
1st . Vuelta Ciclista a Galega
1st . overall, Kmart Classic
1st . stage, Tour of Sweden
1st . overall, Tour of America
2nd . overall, Tour DuPont
1992
1st . First Union Grand Prix
1st . Thrift Drug Classic
1st . stage,Trittico Premondiale
1st . overall, Vuelta La Riberia
1st . 3 stages, Vuelta La Riberia
2nd . Championship of Zurich
12th . overall, Tour DuPont
12th . road race, Olympic Games
Funny, I don't see where he suffered from 'very poor palmares'.
Ted B said:
I read both books - in my opinion they don't amount to any credible explanation as to his improvement.
1985-1989 for Indurain showed consistent, year on year improvement both in the TDF and other stage races.
J-M identified in Miguel the raw material upon which he could develope a successor to Delgado.
From 1987 onwards Reynolds/Banesto invested significant time and training in to developing Miguel.
Unlike Armstrong, who had little or no stage race wins between 1992-1996.
Yes I am aware of the history of cycling to know that people did debut at the tDF on the basis of attempting to win it at the first attempt.
wow first union grand prix, thats makes of him a real outsider for the win of tour of france. we must respect tour of france winners and podiums and before 1999 he had only finished once the tour of france and dont know how many houres behind from indurainTed B said:
Miguel_garcia83 said:
LA used to be a fairly beefy rider. Upon recovering from his bought with cancer, that changed. He never regained the lost upper body weight, but regained his leg strength. This contributed to his becoming a more complete rider.
Furthermore, it was discovered very early in his career that LA has an uncanny ability to remove lactic acid from his blood very quickly. This trait is just one of several possible genetic qualities that contribute to one possessing extraordinairy talent for endurance sports.
Obviously, Alex Zulle, who was a pre-race favorite for the 99 TdF, had that crash of the peloton in an early stage that caused him to lose massive time. But that is besides the point. When someone adopts new training techniques and methods due to having to do so (from having suffered cancer), their climbing capabilities can really improve and affect the outcome of races.
Ted B said:
Stage race palmares - I don't see an overall Paris-Nice victory.
Criterium International ?
Dauphine win ? Midi Libre ? Tour of Switzerland ?
Tour of Catalonia ? Grio di Lombardi ?
Pays Basque ?
Let's even drop a level : Four Days of Dunkirk ?
One day races - yes, he won plenty of one day races.
But one day races are a long distance from overall stage races victories.
Tour Du Pont ain't a Dauphine.
Miguel_garcia83 said:
Again, want to understand the man and the development of his career? Read his books.
Furthermore, there is no comparison between the present day USPS organization and Motorola. Compare LA's year-round preparation for the TdF EVERY year, the cohesiveness of his team, the fact that he has access to the best technology and training, and the character of the man himself. There is no other rider in the tour that dedicates himself like LA, or has the same quality of support.
Ted B said:
I am sure Jim Ochowicz would be delighted to hear this endorsement of Motorola.
Were they in the TDF not to win ?
And what about Sean Yates - Andrea Peron - frankie Andreu : if the team were that bad why did LA cycle with them (after all, he is so professional according to his books...........)
limerickman said:
Unless you were from the U.S., I doubt you would have an understanding of the changes that have taken place in the U.S. with respect to the sport of cycling since that time, and how these changes have impacted the quality of expertise and support available to a U.S. team. Furthermore, while Motorola was in the TdF with the intention of being competitive (like every other team), they certainly didn't have the resources of the present USPS team by any stretch of the imagination.
At that time, LA was a 'hungry' 20-22 year-old youngster who was far from being developed into his full potential. From what I know of the man, I doubt he would have achieved what he has had he NOT weathered his bout with cancer. To say that event changed his life is an understatement. If anything changed between LA the young cyclist and the LA of today, it is his entire mentality.
limerickman said:
1995- given that it is 2004 and he is 32? that would be 23 and he gets 36th in the tour... um, not too bad.. If he was as undisciplined as he claims to have been and is now as disciplined as he claims, frankly it seems possible. Given the type of injuries Lemond had versus the type that Lance had, it seems not that abnormal that lance came back quicker than lemond. Especially given that lance got to to some degree pick his poison. i.e. he chose to spare his lungs and risk death.
I have no clue if the guy is clean. But, lemond should check his facts, in terms of physiology, HR, VO2max, etc. Lance clearly was up there with everyone before his cancer. 36th at the tour seems fine for a 23yo.
I have no clue if he dopes, I wish he would issue a McGee style challenge. LeMond did seem to be right with lance, you're either a liar or out to destroy the sport. Whether or not he dopes, lance is clearly sick and tired of having to hear a damn thing about doping. That clearly comes from one of two reasons: A. he is on dope and thinks everyone else is too, therefore is sick of having his hard work not appreciated just because the whole sport dopes.. B. He has developed an oversensitivity to the issue from having come back from cancer and come to the top of the sport and have so many people say that it's just dope.
fyi. people google, language tools, read bad translations of what lemond actually said... the best evidence against lance is that lemond seems to have gotten some calls that support theory A more than theory B. However nowing what it is like to be white guy with some dumb macho ideas about honor/pride (like lance does), I have been in situations where I did dumb dumb things that made me look guilty even when I was innocent.
It does seem that regardless of lance doping or not he seems to actually help the testing people somewhat.. course that can easily be taken on the same level as him apperently being miffed cuz t-mobile got DA SRMs before he did..
The guy is obsessive and intense... and I still have no idea.. he could just be that defensive. He could alos be doped. I'd have to get to spend time with him to really now... McGee, go win the gold..!
The reason Amrstrong denies doping so often is because he is asked the question so often. No one asks Ullrich if he is doping even though he has proven he is willing to use illicit substances. What about Mayo? Maybe he sucked at the TDF this year because he skipped hi EPO therapy due to the new testing regimen implemented at the '04 TDF. Zubeldia also was a no show.limerickman said:
If Armstrong is doping and his competitors are clean then I am amazed at how close in performance they are to him. The fact is almost all are all doping. This is what Greg Lemond has stated and what Andy Hampsten has backed up today on the Velo News website.
The reason LA gets asked about doping more is that he is SUCCESSFUL in races, and has won five (soon to be six) TdFs. That does not mean he dopes. It means he is highly successful. People don't want to acknowledge that LA/USPS/Bruyneel are more talented, hard-working and strategic-thinking than they are, so it's more protective of one's ego (or more protective, in the case of, say, a Mayo fan, of his image of Mayo and Mayo's capabilities) to blame the superior performance of LA on doping instead of recognizing what the true causes of such performance are.
The reason fewer people ask why JU dopes is that he has not won five (soon to be six) TdFs and he does not generally perform as well as LA.
People don't want to acknowledge that LA/USPS/Bruyneel are more talented, hard-working and strategic-thinking than they are, so it's more protective of one's ego (or more protective, in the case of, say, a Mayo fan, of his image of Mayo and Mayo's capabilities) to blame the superior performance of LA on doping instead of recognizing what the true causes of such performance are. The reason fewer people ask why JU dopes is that he has not won five (soon to be six) TdFs and he does not generally perform as well as LA.
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