CSC and Valverde collusion
- Thread starter thunder
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thunder said:
i don't think that's collusion... that's just informing Valverde that it's not in his interest to help Evans... he was not going to win the stage.. pulling was not going to win him the tour... unless he could get away cleanly from Evans it makes no sense for him to pull... for what? he doesn't have a Silence-Lotto jersey on. collusion (the type that's not allowed) is when you convince someone to not do something that would actually be in their interest... like Bettini offering Astraloa money to let him win the 2003 worlds... that's collusion.. that's not allowed.
I can understand Valverde perhaps preferring Sastre to win as a Spaniard... but I don't think he needs a Schleck brother to tell him that.doctorSpoc said:
And there was no guarantee that Valverde couldn't win the stage or be able to ride away from Evans or the rest of the chase group. Surely he would want to perform to the best of his ability and get as high on the podium as possible. Who knows if Evans or any other of his adversaries above him on GC are not going to crash in one of the next few stages?
Arguing that he shouldn't help Evans because he can't beat him seems illogical if by default... he is helping a CSC guy to win by sitting up.
Crankyfeet said:
wha? what seems illogical to me is if he actually had the strength to go away.. he didn't.. obviously he didn't... that' why it never happened. if he could get away cleanly that's another thing but he couldn't so it makes sense to force the others to pull and this makes them weaker and allows you to be in a better position to attack and do better on the stage... it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for Valverde to just drag the others up with hill with him.. as i said there is nothing in it for him... it's for Evans to pull, not him.. it's for Valverde to attack not to pull... add to that like you say, he likely couldn't walk into a bar in Spain with out getting beat the hell up if he did pull the group back to Sastre... there was nothing in it for him either.. it simple didn't make any kind of sense.
Valv actually tried to get away a few times, signalling to F.Schleck to lead him out. In doing this, Evans would have to have pulled them back. Valv knew that CSC weren't happy if he pulled the group along and anyway it was in his interest to gain time on Evans, Kohl.
My opinion, Evans may or may not have been calculating how much time he could lose on the Alpe today and I'm sure he's playing to the strengths he has, but I don't like 'em and neither do alot of others by the sounds of it.
He has no style, no panache, he was looking around today after being on the front for about 5 seconds as if to say "why aren't you helping me", he should never have had the No.1 on his back. He just follows and followers shouldn't be champions. Remember Indurain in '95 when Zulle went off up La Plagne ?, he didn't sit there calculating and wondering if someone else was going to chase, he just ****ed off after him and won the tour with that ride. Valverde probably said to Schleck today " I wasn't going to help him he's a ***** "
What makes it worse is you know what a ***** he is off the bike
He has no style, no panache, he was looking around today after being on the front for about 5 seconds as if to say "why aren't you helping me", he should never have had the No.1 on his back. He just follows and followers shouldn't be champions. Remember Indurain in '95 when Zulle went off up La Plagne ?, he didn't sit there calculating and wondering if someone else was going to chase, he just ****ed off after him and won the tour with that ride. Valverde probably said to Schleck today " I wasn't going to help him he's a ***** "
What makes it worse is you know what a ***** he is off the bike
Guys he's not a superior climber. You have said as much. His strategy is to minimise damage in the mountains... not to attack and put time on his opponents. He's probably sorry that he is not the macho superman all-round dominant cyclist that everyone wishes in their TdF victors. But given his strengths and weaknesses... I can't see how his strategy is flawed.ad9898 said:My opinion, Evans may or may not have been calculating how much time he could lose on the Alpe today and I'm sure he's playing to the strengths he has, but I don't like 'em and neither do alot of others by the sounds of it.
He has no style, no panache, he was looking around today after being on the front for about 5 seconds as if to say "why aren't you helping me", he should never have had the No.1 on his back. He just follows and followers shouldn't be champions. Remember Indurain in '95 when Zulle went off up La Plagne ?, he didn't sit there calculating and wondering if someone else was going to chase, he just ****ed off after him and won the tour with that ride. Valverde probably said to Schleck today " I wasn't going to help him he's a ***** "
What makes it worse is you know what a ***** he is off the bike
He rides to his limit... and keeps his options open on someone else providing assistance... until he is left with no choice but to take the initiative. He has probably learnt the best way to get to the finish line with the best time and the least amount of energy expended over years of experience managing his abilities. Sastre wouldn't have been able to be as "gutsy" without his two team mates disrupting the chase group. However much everyone wants to denigrate Evans for his whinging... he is isolated in the front group and the main target of everyone. I would have liked to have seen Armstrong race with as little support... just to see how that may have evened things up a little.
Crankyfeet said:
this actually did happen, and as much of a self admitted Lance hater as i am the one time i saw Lance completely isolated and surround by T-Mobile guys left and right he performed really well, all things considered... definitely on the defensive, but still performed really well.
2005 TdF Stage 8 - 1st day with a real climb... 3rd cat right at the end of the stage... the entire Discovery team except for Armstrong gets dropped and a 30 man breakaway goes away... Armstrong loses 30 second to Kloden.
Lance couldn't explain what happened, but i figure that the purolator with the rest of team's blood bags arrived a day late 'cause the next day, miraculously, the whole team was just flying again and blew apart the peloton...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005//tour05/?id=results/tour058
Yeah... OP showed that cyclists only kept blood bags for hypothetical reasons...ad9898 said:
And Lance was a different kettle of fish. He was the dominant rider in the peloton. So the examples doctorSpoc and you showed were good spectator viewing... just for the way it evened up the fight somewhat. I may have gave the impression, through clumsy English, that I thought Lance would have performed the same as Cadel if he had Cadel's support. That wasn't my point however. Lance (doped or not... whatever) had many more cards to play in his hand and was clearly (by his record) better in relation to the field than any "slight" overall advantage (given Evans' pre-race favorite tag) that Cadel might have in comparison.
'Collusion' as you guys wanna call it, goes on every day, in every stage...nothing new there. I prefer 'alliances of self interest'...no-one is colluding with anyone unless theres something in it for them...whether the half the riders are smart enough to work out what's in their best interests is another matter entirely...that's why they have DS's screaming down the radio at 'em...Schleck was obviously talking to valverde, but I can't fathom why it would be in Valverde's interests not to do whatever he wanted, (apart from the Spanish thing), although I suspect that like the French, he couldn't care who won (if he can't), as long as it ISN'T one of his countrymen
Oh, watch out, Hitchy probably knows him. I'll bet Evans let him carry his lion...or maybe his accessory dog. I'll bet he would even let him put chamos cream in his shorts....that Hitchy is sooooo above us. He knows people, watch out or he will "pwn" you....plus I think he wants pictures of my tool....Klodifan said:
Have you read about the big money he donates out his own pocket to charity? Do you know anyone who has met him? A young teenage girl in my bike club worships him after he took a significant amount of time to talk and ride with her on a charity ride a few months ago.Klodifan said:
I don't know the bloke personally, never met him, but I know a few people that know him well (not Hitchy BTW - farked if I know if he does or not
) . Their opinion is that he is a good bloke. Don't take his reaction in a high pressure scenario with journos to be his normal disposition. Often riders reactions and comments after stages are toolish in the extreme. Look at Hinault and Fignon in days gone by. Evans is not the only rider on this Tour to make an **** of himself in interview. I think in Evans case he's not coping with the pressure well.
Good post, but you do have to admit that his prickly nature does little to endear himself to those of us without a national attachment. We don't know him, just like we don't really know any of them. That doesn't mean that we, like every human, shouldn't develop opinions about someone based on what we do see of them. We are human, and that is what we do. What we have seen of him in this tour has been very childish in some instances. In some he has been endearing, like the day he won yellow and showed emotion about it. However, his headbutt yesturday was completely uncalled for. He could have avoided that if he had wanted. He wanted to make a point, and he did. Unfortunately, it was a point that will lose him support. It wont change the outcome of the race however.classic1 said:Have you read about the big money he donates out his own pocket to charity? Do you know anyone who has met him? A young teenage girl in my bike club worships him after he took a significant amount of time to talk and ride with her on a charity ride a few months ago.
I don't know the bloke personally, never met him, but I know a few people that know him well (not Hitchy BTW - farked if I know if he does or not
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