Culture Wars (2 Chapters)

  • Thread starter Luigi De Guzman
  • Start date



On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 17:25:13 GMT, "loki" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Curtis L. Russell" <[email protected]> wrote in
>message news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 19:01:39 -0500, Luigi de Guzman
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >There was someone else in the left-turn lane, as it
>> >happend, anyway. I don't much like the idea of being
>> >caught in-between....
>>
>> You don't move all the way left - for that reason. You
>> hold your place to move right as soon as the light
>> changes, but leave right turn room.
>
> I had a culture clash last week on my commute. A minivan
> passes me shortly before a signed residential
> intersection then pulls in front at the cross street. It
> came _very_ close. I don't know what the legal/regulatory
> definition is wrt how close it has to be before your are
> officially cut off

Would depend on the state. A bill was recently passed here
in Virginia that stipulated a minimum two-foot overtaking
distance (applies if you're overtaking a car, truck,
bicycle, oxcart, anything).

>but as far as I was concerned this burgundy minivan was _wa-a-a-a-
>y_ too close. It very much invaded my personal space.
>
> I caught up at the next stop sign and I see the driver -
> yakking on a cell phone. I considered thumping the van to
> get her attention and pointing out her careless driving..
> But it was my commute and I had to be somewhere. Plus I
> was probably to angry to get into it.

My least favourite motorist maneuver is the "right hook,"
where an impatient driver will overtake me (sometimes even
safely!) on the left, then immediately hit the brakes and
make a right turn. the squeal of my brakes is barely audible
over my howl of frustration. Were those acrobatics worth a
tenth of a second's travel time--and were they worth the
risk of colliding with me?

The right-turn-on red incident I classify as cultural,
though, since if I were driving a car, he would have had no
choice but to wait for the light to turn. On a bicycle, I'm
obviously easier to push around, never mind that I've got
my little brother to look after (In traffic, we ride in not-quite-
single file--he goes up ahead, but further right, and I
take a bit more of the lane behind him to give us both
breathing room).

-Luigi
 
Luigi de Guzman wrote:

> My least favourite motorist maneuver is the "right hook,"
> where an impatient driver will overtake me (sometimes even
> safely!) on the left, then immediately hit the brakes and
> make a right turn. the squeal of my brakes is barely
> audible over my howl of frustration. Were those acrobatics
> worth a tenth of a second's travel time--and were they
> worth the risk of colliding with me?

I've often wondered about this, when in car or on bike.

What is it these guys/gals are doing that makes such
maneuvers worth the effort? Surely they see the car or
bike they're going to cut off, cut in front of, push
off the road.

If time is so important to them that the loss of 2-5
seconds is simply too much to stand, even to the point of
risking accident, one wonders just exactly where are they
going and why?

More curious is, why are they actually driving a car if they
really are so important? Should they not be chauffeured so
they can be doing whatever they do that makes their time so
precious? Better still, should they not be helicoptered to
their destination rather than driving at all?

Doesn't figure...unless these really aren't important people
rushing to very important activities. Simply rude people
indulging in selfish behavior devoid of any concern beyond
the confines of their car.

SMH
 
On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 09:47:34 -0500, Stephen Harding
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Collin O'Neill wrote:
>
>> So why the hell do people hate bicyclists so much!? It's
>> bizarre.
>
>It will vary a lot by location, but by and large, I think
>motorists *don't* hate bicyclists. They're pretty good
>about patiently waiting for them when it would be unsafe or
>rude to pass or turn. But I live in a largely bike friendly
>area, so that may simply be the local behavior.

Their hatred will depend on the time of day. In the middle
of the day or on a weekend morning, they're awfully nice.
Five o'clock on a weekday and you're only so much scum they
have to wipe off the grilles of their Ford Invasions.

And I don't even want to think about how ill-humoured they
are on the way home from church! What is it about people
on the way home (presumably) from church that makes them
such cranky drivers? "Peace I leave you, my peace I give
you," indeed!

[although this Sunday the congregation was much nicer than
usual. Maybe because it's Lent?]

>
>The dominant reason is speed IMHO. Bikes are slow and cars
>are fast, and a motorist having to slow down represents a
>terrible hardship. Combine this attitude with some
>seriously erroneous beliefs in what rights a bicyclist has
>on the road, you end up with conflict and negative
>stereotyping.

Race and class play into it as well, but admittedly to a far
lesser degree. The bicycle is the transport of the poor; the
auto is the sure sign that one has 'arrived.' The most
avowed democrat becomes an elitist behind the wheel of his
car; anyone getting round by bicycle is assumed to be
ignorant, and therefore easily bullied or dismissed.

>
>Just keep it all in perspective. At least most places I've
>ridden, motorist attitudes don't seem too negative towards
>bicyclists.

I suppose maybe 80, 90 percent of my interactions with
motorists are fine.

-luigi
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Collin O'Neill" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "frkrygow" <"frkrygow"@omitcc.ysu.edu> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Stephen Harding wrote:
> >
> > > Just keep it all in perspective. At least most places
> > > I've ridden, motorist attitudes don't seem too
> > > negative towards bicyclists.
> >
> > I agree, and I've ridden in _lots_ of places.
> >
> Well, it's good to know other people are having a better
> time of it. When I lived in Southern California, I gave up
> riding my bike after one person purposely swung his car
> into me for no reason, and another sped up and cranked a
> right turn in front of me, almost causing me to slide
> under his truck wheels. I dented his truck but otherwise I
> was alright. He confessed that he saw me and just thought
> he could make it in time. I simply didn't feel like riding
> after those incidents. Now that I'm in Chicago, I find
> it's actually very well suited to riding. You're right
> that the majority of drivers are polite.

One thing I've found is that the faster I ride, the fewer
problems I have. A large part of this is that I think once
you get over a critical speed of about 30 km/h or so, you
start to read as traffic rather than a chicane.

Of course, the other thing is that the faster I go, the
angrier I get when people do something stupid, because I'm
all out, and full of adrenaline and stupidity. Like today,
when a van driver going down the hill beside me thought he
could fully overtake me (no), then thought he could move
right to my lane to avoid the stopped, left-turning car
ahead of him (also no, and I deliberately wasn't leaving
enough room for this, because I saw trouble brewing), and
then came to a near-stop after getting half into my lane and
figuring out he couldn't come any further without cutting me
off, and he couldn't keep going, because he was going to hit
the left-turning car. I made an exasperated gesture as I
passed him.

Then the next kilometre was a stupid-fast descent with three
turns in it; cars don't keep up with me. By the bottom, I
was in the fast lane, yelling "Venga venga!" at the Civic
ahead of me. I kept even with heavy traffic for the next 2-3
km of rolling road, before turning off to go home.

That was a good ride home.
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected]
http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club
 
Ryan Cousineau wrote:

> One thing I've found is that the faster I ride, the fewer
> problems I have. A large part of this is that I think once
> you get over a critical speed of about 30 km/h or so, you
> start to read as traffic rather than a chicane.

I believe this is possibly true, although I really don't
know why 15 mph would register as "toy" while 20 mph would
become "fellow traffic". But I believe you really are more
"accepted" by motorists at a higher speed.

The next theory I'm developing, based on observation, is the
higher pedal cadence, the more respect you get from
motorists sharing the road with you!

So if you're physical condition, or road situation doesn't
allow you to tool along at 35 mph like Lance, try spinning
300 rpm at 12 mph and I believe motorists will sit patiently
behind you while your in the middle of the lane for miles
without complaint!

Go ahead! Give it a try and see!

SMH
 
Stephen Harding <[email protected]> wrote in message 404db841$1@news-
1.oit.umass.edu

[...]

> The next theory I'm developing, based on observation, is
> the higher pedal cadence, the more respect you get from
> motorists sharing the road with you!
>
> So if you're physical condition, or road situation doesn't
> allow you to tool along at 35 mph like Lance, try spinning
> 300 rpm at 12 mph and I believe motorists will sit
> patiently behind you while your in the middle of the lane
> for miles without complaint!

That's because they can see you're putting in an effort. :)

--

"I'm proud that I live in a country where witnessing two
hours of bloody, barbarous torture in gloating detail is
considered indicia of religious piety, whereas a mere second
gazing upon a woman's breast is cause for outraged
apoplexy." Betty Bowers,
http://www.bettybowers.com/melgibsonpassion.html
 
On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 07:27:42 -0500, Stephen Harding
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
>> One thing I've found is that the faster I ride, the fewer
>> problems I have. A large part of this is that I think
>> once you get over a critical speed of about 30 km/h or
>> so, you start to read as traffic rather than a chicane.
>
>I believe this is possibly true, although I really don't
>know why 15 mph would register as "toy" while 20 mph would
>become "fellow traffic". But I believe you really are more
>"accepted" by motorists at a higher speed.

The obstruction-of-traffic law in Virginia says that motor-
vehicle (am unclear about other traffic) traffic that is
up to 15 mph below the posted speed limit in ideal daytime
conditions shall NOT be considered to be unduly
obstructing traffic.

I always use this as my rule of thumb for route selection.
In town I'm within a few mph of the 25 mph limit (sometimes
I exceed it, yay! Haven't been ticketed yet). On larger
highways, where the limit approaches 45, I'm less willing to
get out onto the road, since there's no way I can average 30
mph in the terrain hereabouts prevailing.

I can ride roads with higher speed limits when motor-vehicle
traffic volume is low enough to permit motorists to pass me
safely, or when volume is so high that the effective maximum
speed through the intended stretch is within my physical
capabilities, anyway.

>
>The next theory I'm developing, based on observation, is
>the higher pedal cadence, the more respect you get from
>motorists sharing the road with you!
>
>So if you're physical condition, or road situation doesn't
>allow you to tool along at 35 mph like Lance, try spinning
>300 rpm at 12 mph and I believe motorists will sit
>patiently behind you while your in the middle of the lane
>for miles without complaint!
>
>Go ahead! Give it a try and see

I'm ready to shoot this one down. You're even less worthy if
it looks like you're spinning away for no perceptible gain,
in the eyes of the motorist. I mean, any monkey could ride
down the street at 40 RPM, right?

-Luigi

>
>
>SMH
 
On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 01:28:10 -0500, Luigi de Guzman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I suppose maybe 80, 90 percent of my interactions with
>motorists are fine.

If 10-20% of my interactions with motorists weren't "fine",
I would re-examine my interactions with motorists. Are you
sure about those numbers?

Now, if you include "non-interactions" among the "not-so-
fine", as in "They really don't see me", then 10-20% is on
the low side...
 
On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 17:33:34 -0500, Stephen Harding
<[email protected]> wrote:

>What is it these guys/gals are doing that makes such
>maneuvers worth the effort? Surely they see the car or
>bike they're going to cut off, cut in front of, push off
>the road.

Some have no concept of the speed of the bike in motion.
Same people cut off cars every day. And partly it is the
refusal to think even half a block ahead in traffic, coupled
with a determination to make their turn anyway.

Probably the same or related to the drivers that miss a turn
on the Interstate and back up rather than simply drive to
the next cloverleaf and come back.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
two wheels...
 
On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:52:37 -0800, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]>
wrote:

>yelling "Venga venga!" at the Civic ahead of me.

Yelling in a Romance language at a Japanese car?
 
On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:52:37 -0800, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Then the next kilometre was a stupid-fast descent with
>three turns in it; cars don't keep up with me. By the
>bottom, I was in the fast lane, yelling "Venga venga!"
>at the Civic ahead of me. I kept even with heavy traffic
>for the next 2-3 km of rolling road, before turning off
>to go home.

You wanted the Civic to come to you?

Otherwise, wouldn't it be "vaya, vaya" or even ándale?

-Luigi
 
On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 08:20:17 -0600, Zippy the Pinhead
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:52:37 -0800, Ryan Cousineau
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>yelling "Venga venga!" at the Civic ahead of me.
>
>Yelling in a Romance language at a Japanese car?

I shout in Latin in traffic all the time. Usually it's an
exasperated

FUTUENDI GRATIA!

-Luigi
 
Zippy the Pinhead wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:52:37 -0800, Ryan Cousineau
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>yelling "Venga venga!" at the Civic ahead of me.
>
> Yelling in a Romance language at a Japanese car?

For "intimidation factor" you really need to be yelling
in German.

It's so authoritative!

SMH
 
Luigi de Guzman wrote:

> ... the auto is the sure sign that one has 'arrived.' The
> most avowed democrat becomes an elitist behind the wheel
> of his car; ...

... and it's _really_ scary to think about the
republicans ...

Oops. Sorry, Mark! ;-)

--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, omit what's between "at" and
"cc"]
 
Luigi de Guzman wrote:

> ... the auto is the sure sign that one has 'arrived.' The
> most avowed democrat becomes an elitist behind the wheel
> of his car; ...

... and it's _really_ scary to think about the
republicans ...

Oops. Sorry, Mark! ;-)

--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, omit what's between "at" and
"cc"]
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Luigi de Guzman <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:52:37 -0800, Ryan Cousineau
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Then the next kilometre was a stupid-fast descent with
> >three turns in it; cars don't keep up with me. By the
> >bottom, I was in the fast lane, yelling "Venga venga!"
> >at the Civic ahead of me. I kept even with heavy traffic
> >for the next 2-3 km of rolling road, before turning off
> >to go home.
>
> You wanted the Civic to come to you?
>
> Otherwise, wouldn't it be "vaya, vaya" or even ándale?

It works for Carlos Saiz, the original "Venga!" guy. Or
maybe I mistransliterated what he yells at his riders.

Yes, that's a word,
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected]
http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Luigi de Guzman <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 22:52:37 -0800, Ryan Cousineau
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Then the next kilometre was a stupid-fast descent with
> >three turns in it; cars don't keep up with me. By the
> >bottom, I was in the fast lane, yelling "Venga venga!"
> >at the Civic ahead of me. I kept even with heavy traffic
> >for the next 2-3 km of rolling road, before turning off
> >to go home.
>
> You wanted the Civic to come to you?
>
> Otherwise, wouldn't it be "vaya, vaya" or even ándale?

It works for Carlos Saiz, the original "Venga!" guy. Or
maybe I mistransliterated what he yells at his riders.

Yes, that's a word,
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected]
http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Stephen Harding <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ryan Cousineau wrote:
>
> > One thing I've found is that the faster I ride, the
> > fewer problems I have. A large part of this is that I
> > think once you get over a critical speed of about 30
> > km/h or so, you start to read as traffic rather than a
> > chicane.
>
> I believe this is possibly true, although I really don't
> know why 15 mph would register as "toy" while 20 mph would
> become "fellow traffic". But I believe you really are more
> "accepted" by motorists at a higher speed.

I have a few ideas. One is that you can interact more with
traffic. They can't pass you carelessly, because you're
moving close to their speed.

> The next theory I'm developing, based on observation, is
> the higher pedal cadence, the more respect you get from
> motorists sharing the road with you!
>
> So if you're physical condition, or road situation doesn't
> allow you to tool along at 35 mph like Lance, try spinning
> 300 rpm at 12 mph and I believe motorists will sit
> patiently behind you while your in the middle of the lane
> for miles without complaint!
>
> Go ahead! Give it a try and see!

One thing I will do when I'm worried a car is about to try
an ill-advised overtaking move, besides taking a bit more
lane, is add some action to my pedaling: I move a bit more
on the bike, get it going side-to-side a bit, and try to
accelerate. This seems to make me read a little more
unpredictable, and the cars give me more space.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected]
http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/ President, Fabrizio
Mazzoleni Fan Club