Custom bike rebuild question

[Inertianinja]

I'm in a bit of a weird situation. Background: Last year i was in the market for a new steel frame to be my second bike. Despite the few commercially available frames out there, I found an Italian builder who was doing custom frames for a very good price. I had always wanted to do a real custom build, and this seemed like a good way to try it out for the first time without spending too much. Local builders were just too much money. The builder is well known with a good history. I didn't really need custom geometry. The "custom" part of it was really tube choice, frame details (internal brake cable routing etc) , paint, etc. Still, they were going to build it completely custom, so i sent them my measurements. Somehow, with an error on my end or their end, the frame ended up being too big. Other than that, the bike is beautiful and well built. I spoke to the builder and they agreed to build me a new frame. So, rather than just send them measurements again, my inclination is to send them the exact geometry of a bike frame that I know fits me (Felt F series Size 56) and ask them to just copy that this time. I have an email out to the builder already asking if this was possible. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on this idea.

 

[danfoz]

I was perusing some custom builders sites awhile back and remember one of them mentioning something to the same effect i.e. that if one had an existing geometry they were comfortable with that it could be used as some baseline. May have been Rodriquez Bicycles but not sure. It certainly is a valid question but not being a framebuilder don't know the answer.

Curious, was the builder you used Torelli?

 

[alfeng]

Originally Posted by Inertianinja .

Somehow, with an error on my end or their end, the frame ended up being too big. Other than that, the bike is beautiful and well built.

FWIW. I think that you & the framebuilder have probably encountered a failure to communicate ...

• primarily, a philosophical difference
• certainly, an aesthetic difference
• possibly, a generational difference

Sight unseen AND without knowing your stats, presuming that the frame which was built for you has a top tube which is no more than a centimeter longer than the top tube on your current 56cm FELT frame, then I would say that the frame is too large for the first two reasons which I listed ...

So, what are the specs on the custom frame which was built for you?

Braze-ons?

Eyelets?

What are the specs of your Felt frame?

What is the length of your crankarms?

What is the stem length?

What is your handlebar's reach? Drop? Installed angle?

What is the distance from the top of the saddle to the center of the BB spindle?

How tall are you?

• ~180cm?
• taller?

How old are you?

Do you race OR is the bike intended for racing?

Or, did you not spec the intended purpose?

There ARE other questions, but that's a start for determining why the frame which was built for you seems to be too big ...

• Post a picture of your Felt -- preferably, taken from the driveside at as close to perpendicular to the central plane of the bike as you can.
• Post a picture of the frame, too -- preferably, a pic which is perpendicular to the bike's central plane.

BTW. If 'I' were going to have a custom frame built for ME, then I would probably spec the tube lengths & preferred angles ... they would be subject to change if 'I' could be convinced that my specs weren't necessarily the best for me ...

• I have a lot of frames ...
• the sizes vary ... even, the crankarm lengths vary ...
• my aesthetic sensibilities are different than they were decades ago, BUT the contact points are all set up to feel the same to me when I am in the saddle regardless of the actual frame size ...

 

[alienator]

I was perusing some custom builders sites awhile back and remember one of them mentioning something to the same effect i.e. that if one had an existing geometry they were comfortable with that it could be used as some baseline. May have been Rodriquez Bicycles but not sure. It certainly is a valid question but not being a framebuilder don't know the answer. Curious, was the builder you used Torelli?

I believe the majority of custom builders will build from geometry given to them by a customer. After all, if you've found a bike geometry that is ideal for you, then that's the geometry any custom bike you buy should have. With that said, I'd also suggest listening to any suggestions the builder might have about massaging some of the dimensions, if he/she has such suggestions.

 

[Inertianinja]

Curious, was the builder you used Torelli?

It was not them, but i feel like I should leave the name out for now. Don't want to give them bad press if they're going to do the right thing for me.

FWIW. I think that you & the framebuilder have probably encountered a failure to communicate ...

• primarily, a philosophical difference
• certainly, an aesthetic difference
• possibly, a generational difference

Sight unseen AND without knowing your stats, presuming that the frame which was built for you has a top tube which is no more than a centimeter longer than the top tube on your current 56cm FELT frame, then I would say that the frame is too large for the first two reasons which I listed ...
So, what are the specs on the custom frame which was built for you?
Braze-ons?
Eyelets?
What are the specs of your Felt frame?
What is the length of your crankarms?
What is the stem length?
What is your handlebar's reach? Drop? Installed angle?
What is the distance from the top of the saddle to the center of the BB spindle?
How tall are you?

• ~180cm?
• taller?

How old are you?
Do you race OR is the bike intended for racing?
Or, did you not spec the intended purpose?
There ARE other questions, but that's a start for determining why the frame which was built for you seems to be too big ...

• Post a picture of your Felt -- preferably, taken from the driveside at as close to perpendicular to the central plane of the bike as you can.
• Post a picture of the frame, too -- preferably, a pic which is perpendicular to the bike's central plane.

BTW. If 'I' were going to have a custom frame built for ME, then I would probably spec the tube lengths & preferred angles ... they would be subject to change if 'I' could be convinced that my specs weren't necessarily the best for me ...

• I have a lot of frames ...
• the sizes vary ... even, the crankarm lengths vary ...
• my aesthetic sensibilities are different than they were decades ago, BUT the contact points are all set up to feel the same to me when I am in the saddle regardless of the actual frame size ...

This is a lot to respond to, but let me say that I gave the builder A LOT of detail about these things before I made the order, specifically because it was sight unseen. We don't really need to go through all the things that would affect the type of frame I'd get. I'm in my 30s, i race, i have been professionally fit and I gave him the details about my current bike. I was told by many people however, that I should just trust him and not overdo the detail. So I did, and a mistake was made somewhere. The reach on the bike is about 26mm longer than I need. I'm asking him to copy the geo of a Felt F1. I sent him an email with the full geometry and asked him to match it. A steel version of the F series would be great, I think. My question was really focused on whether you all thought that asking him to copy specific geometry would be better than just sending body measurements again. Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by Inertianinja .


It was not them, but i feel like I should leave the name out for now. Don't want to give them bad press if they're going to do the right thing for me.

Mistake or not any builder who puts a priority on customer satisfaction is off to a good start. You also seem to have a good attitude about the mixup. Sounds like things will work out.

 

[alfeng]

Originally Posted by Inertianinja .

We don't really need to go through all the things that would affect the type of frame I'd get. I'm in my 30s, i race, i have been professionally fit and I gave him the details about my current bike.

I was told by many people however, that I should just trust him and not overdo the detail. So I did, and a mistake was made somewhere. The reach on the bike is about 26mm longer than I need.

I'm asking him to copy the geo of a Felt F1. I sent him an email with the full geometry and asked him to match it. A steel version of the F series would be great, I think.

My question was really focused on whether you all thought that asking him to copy specific geometry would be better than just sending body measurements again.

Okay. I'm an inquiring mind ...

So, are you saying that the (¿virtual?) Top Tube length is 58.5cm long?

• Would you say that you have a normal torso or a long torso & arms?

What is it horizontal OR sloping Top Tube?

Have you installed a fork with a headset?

• Did the builder supply a fork?

Although the lower stack of the headset won't change the geometry by a great deal, if it is not in place & you are measuring the frame then you could be making an incorrect measurement ...

THAT is true, too if you are not allowing for a sloping Top Tube.

BTW. I don't think that a professional fitting guarantees that you will necessarily be optimized for riding because the biases of the fitter may come into play ...

• For example, if the fitter is an adherent to KOPS positioning, then everything will progress from that point of view ...
• the "Rivendell" people would undoubtedly fit you a in different way ...
• et cetera

Sight unseen, I'm just going to presume that you are using a 110mm or 120mm stem ... if that is correct & if you aren't already using a 130mm stem, then borrow one, remove your head tube spacers & refit your Felt F1 with it to see if the longer Top Tube might actually be a better fit for you ...

If you are already using a 130mm stem, then slam it down to the headset & see if that is possibly a better position for you ...

• this is most easily done with your bike simply placed in your stationary trainer ... no distractions ... you may be able to tell within minutes whether there is any viability ...

If you are using one of those shallow drop handlebars which seems to have been in vogue for the past couple of years, then borrow a handlebar with a deeper drop & fit it on your Felt & see if it possibly provides a better riding position for you.

THAT's a long way of saying that I wouldn't dismiss the frame which was cobbled up for you just because it doesn't perfectly mimic the Felt's geometry UNTIL you explore the alternative which it provides.

 

[Inertianinja]

OK, i have a little more time to answer.

When I ordered the bike, I had two bikes already. A Felt 58cm with a 100mm stem (first bike, i should have been on a 56), and a Cervelo 56cm with a 110mm stem. On both, i felt i could go another 10mm on the stem pretty soon.
I wanted basically a size 56, but i'm a little shorter in the torso proportionally, so I thought he might make some custom adjustments. I sent them the full geometry and component setup of my 56cm Cervelo and told them I wanted to ride a bike with similar aggressive geometry, but wanted to use a 120mm stem. I told them I intended to use a 43mm rake fork, like most bikes in 56/58cm come with.
For some reason, they built a bike that was 26mm longer in reach (the seat tube angle was a bit slacker than the other bikes) than my other bikes. I'd have to go down to a 90mm stem AND get shorter-reach bars just to get the same reach. With the 110mm stem and a professional fit, I was still extremely stretched out and the front end felt unstable. a 120 or 130mm would be out of the question. I understand that the fit of old school bikes had longer TTs and a more horizontal position, but this was way off.

Anyway, over the weekend I copied the full geometry of a Felt F1 and emailed it to the builder. They said they would copy that geometry and send me a new frame.

 

[alfeng]

Originally Posted by Inertianinja .

OK, i have a little more time to answer.

When I ordered the bike, I had two bikes already. A Felt 58cm with a 100mm stem (first bike, i should have been on a 56), and a Cervelo 56cm with a 110mm stem. On both, i felt i could go another 10mm on the stem pretty soon.
I wanted basically a size 56, but i'm a little shorter in the torso proportionally, so I thought he might make some custom adjustments. I sent them the full geometry and component setup of my 56cm Cervelo and told them I wanted to ride a bike with similar aggressive geometry, but wanted to use a 120mm stem. I told them I intended to use a 43mm rake fork, like most bikes in 56/58cm come with.
For some reason, they built a bike that was 26mm longer in reach (the seat tube angle was a bit slacker than the other bikes) than my other bikes. I'd have to go down to a 90mm stem AND get shorter-reach bars just to get the same reach. With the 110mm stem and a professional fit, I was still extremely stretched out and the front end felt unstable. a 120 or 130mm would be out of the question. I understand that the fit of old school bikes had longer TTs and a more horizontal position, but this was way off.

Anyway, over the weekend I copied the full geometry of a Felt F1 and emailed it to the builder. They said they would copy that geometry and send me a new frame.

Well, clearly you want a different frame FOR COSMETIC REASONS ...

• Nothing wrong with that!

FYI. If your reasoning is that you want to use a 120mm stem instead of a 90mm-or-95mm stem (for cosmetic reasons), then you can simply install the longer stem so that there is less drop from the top of the saddle (i.e., MORE SPACERS between the stem & the headset) ...

• you won't be the first rider whose bike's stem isn't slammed all the way down to the headset ...
• again, if you add MORE spacers between the stem & headset to any setup then you can use a longer stem length ...

BTW. You never said how tall you are ... or, your other dimensions ... OR, the dimensions of the "custom" frame which was sent to you ... WHERE are the brake levers currently located on your handlebars?

• the dimensions of the levers vary ... which brake levers are you using?

HOW are the handlebars currently oriented? How much setback does your seatpost have & where is the saddle located in the seatpost's cradle?

• if you are currently using a seatpost with more setback than not (e.g., some Easton seatposts), then having a slacker seat tube & a slightly longer top tube would allow you to use a greater variety of seatposts ...

Again, you are relying on the so-called "professional fit" which you received in the past, yet you know that it is no longer valid. Think about it ...

• can you currently touch your toes without bending your knees?
• can you place your palms on the floor without bending your knees?
• do you anticipate becoming FITTER in the future than you apparently were last season? you are saying that whenever it was that you had your so-called "professional fit" that you a 10mm longer stem didn't feel right, and yet you are now going to go with a longer stem
• if you do-the-math, the stem you would be putting on the frame which was sent to you would be a 105mm
• again, if you install the stem with less drop, you could use a cosmetically longer stem

Again, think about it.

Basically, you have cited the frame's top tube length + stem length, but you have NOT indicated anything else about how your two bikes are currently setup ...

• what is the crank arm length(s) which currently you use on your two bikes?

I hope your so-called professional fitter took the time to explain MORE of the this-and-that about fitting a bike to a particular rider than you seem to be aware of since your current focus is only on the top tube & stem length.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by Inertianinja .

OK, i have a little more time to answer.

When I ordered the bike, I had two bikes already. A Felt 58cm with a 100mm stem (first bike, i should have been on a 56), and a Cervelo 56cm with a 110mm stem. On both, i felt i could go another 10mm on the stem pretty soon.
I wanted basically a size 56, but i'm a little shorter in the torso proportionally, so I thought he might make some custom adjustments. I sent them the full geometry and component setup of my 56cm Cervelo and told them I wanted to ride a bike with similar aggressive geometry, but wanted to use a 120mm stem. I told them I intended to use a 43mm rake fork, like most bikes in 56/58cm come with.
For some reason, they built a bike that was 26mm longer in reach (the seat tube angle was a bit slacker than the other bikes) than my other bikes. I'd have to go down to a 90mm stem AND get shorter-reach bars just to get the same reach. With the 110mm stem and a professional fit, I was still extremely stretched out and the front end felt unstable. a 120 or 130mm would be out of the question. I understand that the fit of old school bikes had longer TTs and a more horizontal position, but this was way off.

Anyway, over the weekend I copied the full geometry of a Felt F1 and emailed it to the builder. They said they would copy that geometry and send me a new frame.

2.5 cm longer TT than expected is substantial. In standard frame sizing could be two sizes too big. If I was getting a frame custom built I would certainly want everything just right, even if my own miscommunication had me ponying up a few extra $$. Very nice of the builder if he's swallowing some of his margin.

Along with appropriate handling requirements (directly related to one's position over the steering axis), aesthetic considerations are half the fun when getting an Italian thouroughbred built up.

 

[danfoz]

Here is a helpful graphical tool for comparing any two differing setups of stem height/length:

http://alex.phred.org/stemchart/Default.aspx

 

[Inertianinja]

Right, my primary reason for going custom was not fit. It was to get a modern steel frame with high quality tunes, the frame features I wanted, and custom paint. I'll respond to the other stuff when I get a chance.