Cycle helmets - major study



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Kit Wolf <[email protected]> wrote:
>>I've not seen any real evidence of torsional injuries in cyclists.
>I'm still not quite sure. What exactly are 'torsional injuries' and how do you spot them?

Twisting injuries to the neck; broken necks or less serious injuries.

As I understand it Russell Pinder has unfortunately suffered such an injury.
--
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On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:20:08 +0100, Michael MacClancy <[email protected]> wrote:

>>Many accidents, even probably most accidents, are due to inattention, and I have no reason to
>>believe that the proportions are unequal between car drivers and cyclists.

>Show us evidence and we'll be pleased to reconsider.

Evidence of what? That many accidents are caused by inattention? You need evidence of that?
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Paul Smith Scotland, UK http://www.safespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
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On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:36:36 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Geraint
Jones) wrote:

>Perhaps that's partly because you don't keep your **** sticking out to the front on the end of a
>stalk when cycling.

When it comes to that, I don't do that with my head either. It sits several feet from the front of
the bike, comfortably resting against my Ortlieb bike-box.

Guy
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On 24 Apr 2003 13:24:50 +0100 (BST), David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:

>>So, when considering cyclist safety the Government (and the road "safety" establishment) is
>>conditioned by decades of practice to consider that helmets are a valid safety measure,
>
>Especially since helmets, unlike accident prevention measures, would be paid for by the cyclist,
>not the State.

As with seat belts. But in neither case is the fundamental problem addressed, nor is it ever likely
to be at the present rate.

Guy
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On 24 Apr 2003 13:21:15 +0100 (BST), David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:

>>>I've not seen any real evidence of torsional injuries in cyclists.
>Twisting injuries to the neck; broken necks or less serious injuries.

Those are not the dread "torsional injuries" of concern to neurologists; twisting of the neck is not
(to my knowledge) a major source of injury to cyclists.

Guy
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On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:35:52 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Chris Malcolm) wrote:

>Don't forget that you've done a great deal of learning about how to stop hitting your head; you
>duck just enough to avoid branches; when falling over backwards you pull your head up just enough
>to avoid floor impact, etc..

And all of the above is completely invalidated by the simple and obvious fact that, when riding a
bike, you are at a different height and attitude than when you are off the bike.

As I have said elsewhere, arguing about ****ling and unproven effects of the small increase in size
/ mass of a helmet merely gives the helmet nazis something to get thier teeth into. Once they have
undermined the suggestion, by whatever means, part of your argument is demolished. Far better to
work on the real issues - preventing the crash from happening in the first place by improving driver
skills and road layout, for example.

Guy
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On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 23:07:02 +0100, Paul Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

>>(a) the exercise contributes to greater alertness, (b) you're not isolated form your surroundings
>> and (c) inattention is a great way to end up dead, thanks to the fact that large numbers of
>> drivers /are/ in the aforementioned brain-dead inattention state.

>Speaking as someone who once cycled into a parked car, but has never driven into a parked car I
>disbelieve your suggestion.

You are free to believe whatever you like, but this is neither a suggestion nor mine. All three of
the reasons are known documented facts, particularly c.

>Many accidents, even probably most accidents, are due to inattention, and I have no reason to
>believe that the proportions are unequal between car drivers and cyclists.

That would be because you don't cycle :)

Guy
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On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:33:58 +0100, Paul Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

>Evidence of what? That many accidents are caused by inattention? You need evidence of that?

Depends - could it be evidence of the "speed cameras kill" variety? In which case: I predicted it
therefore it is true :-D

Guy
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On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:53:41 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote:

>>>(a) the exercise contributes to greater alertness, (b) you're not isolated form your surroundings
>>> and (c) inattention is a great way to end up dead, thanks to the fact that large numbers of
>>> drivers /are/ in the aforementioned brain-dead inattention state.

>>Speaking as someone who once cycled into a parked car, but has never driven into a parked car I
>>disbelieve your suggestion.

>You are free to believe whatever you like, but this is neither a suggestion nor mine. All three of
>the reasons are known documented facts, particularly c.

a) the exercise itself might lead to distraction and inattention especially if it makes you leg hurt
or something like that.

b) also leads to unknown conclusions; I could equally argue that increased isolation requires more
concentration,

And we don't know whether or not c) applies MORE to drivers than cyclists.

And I could add a d) from my own experience and that would be that the lower speed of cycling is
inherently less demanding of attention so less attention is given.

I see no need to argue the case, and I HAVE NO DATA to back up my position, but I wanted to point
out that your original conclusion about "cyclists concentrating better" would require evidence;
proposed mechanisms are insufficient.

>>Many accidents, even probably most accidents, are due to inattention, and I have no reason to
>>believe that the proportions are unequal between car drivers and cyclists.

>That would be because you don't cycle :)

Or maybe not. :)
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Kit Wolf <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> > I've not seen any real evidence of torsional injuries in cyclists. I really do think it's a red
> > herring, like the extra height issue. A helmet increases my height on a bike by under 1% -
> > definitely insignificant.
>
> I'm still not quite sure. What exactly are 'torsional injuries' and how do you spot them? I would
> have thought you might expect some brain injuries - akin to shaken baby syndrome. But whether the
> medics can tease them apart from other sorts of brain damage, I don't know.
> >

A sudden rotation of the head is generally a *more* effective way of causing brain damage than a
direct blow. This is why boxers will favour an uppercut to the chin over a punch between the eyes,
brain damage being the object of the exercise. The difference in damage is probably only
identifiable at a post-mortem, but has the same cause - the brain stays still whilst the skull moves
around it, for long enough to do damage anyway.

This is quite separate from the broken neck issue, which I would agree is sufficiently uncommon to
be of much significance.

Andrew
 
On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:22:03 +0100, Paul Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

> HAVE NO DATA to back up my position,

No change there, then :)

> but I wanted to point out that your original conclusion about "cyclists concentrating better"
> would require evidence; proposed mechanisms are insufficient.

It has evidence, the effects described are known physiological facts. And the conclusions are
supported by other facts, such as drivers being responsible for the majority of fatal
car-bike crashes.

You don't ride a bike, do you?

Guy
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"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> > but I wanted to point out that your original conclusion
> > about "cyclists concentrating better" would require evidence;
proposed
> >mechanisms are insufficient.

> It has evidence, the effects described are known physiological facts.

My experience playing rugby tells me that as soon as I start breathing hard, my mental capacity
diminishes. I'm guessing the brain competes for blood flow with muscles.
 
On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:15:12 -0400, "Robert Goodman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> > but I wanted to point out that your original conclusion about "cyclists concentrating better"
>> > would require evidence; proposed mechanisms are insufficient.

>> It has evidence, the effects described are known physiological facts.

>My experience playing rugby tells me that as soon as I start breathing hard, my mental capacity
>diminishes. I'm guessing the brain competes for blood flow with muscles.

That's interesting. Perhaps the blood oxygen saturation drops? That would be a very simple
explanation for the effect.
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"Andrew Sweetman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> A sudden rotation of the head is generally a *more* effective way of
causing
> brain damage than a direct blow. This is why boxers will favour an
uppercut
> to the chin over a punch between the eyes, brain damage being the
object of
> the exercise.

> The difference in damage is probably only identifiable at a
post-mortem, but
> has the same cause - the brain stays still whilst the skull moves
around it,
> for long enough to do damage anyway.

Right -- there's more of what's called "contra coup" effect that way. In a straight-on hit, you get
that initial impulse transferred to the brain, and by the time the head stops moving that's going to
be considerably damped, so the brain doesn't hit the opposite side of the skull (contra coup --
opposite the blow) as hard.

Robert
 
"Paul Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:53:41 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> And we don't know whether or not c) applies MORE to drivers than cyclists.
>
> And I could add a d) from my own experience and that would be that the lower speed of cycling is
> inherently less demanding of attention so less attention is given.
>
> I see no need to argue the case, and I HAVE NO DATA to back up my position, but I wanted to point
> out that your original conclusion about "cyclists concentrating better" would require evidence;
> proposed mechanisms are insufficient.

Cyclists find out very quickly that inattention hurts. Drivers found out that inattention hurts
someone else. Darwinism.
>
> >>Many accidents, even probably most accidents, are due to inattention, and I have no reason to
> >>believe that the proportions are unequal between car drivers and cyclists.

See above.
>
cheers

Rich
 
On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:27:51 +0100, "Richard Burton" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> And we don't know whether or not c) applies MORE to drivers than cyclists.

>> And I could add a d) from my own experience and that would be that the lower speed of cycling is
>> inherently less demanding of attention so less attention is given.

>> I see no need to argue the case, and I HAVE NO DATA to back up my position, but I wanted to point
>> out that your original conclusion about "cyclists concentrating better" would require evidence;
>> proposed mechanisms are insufficient.

>Cyclists find out very quickly that inattention hurts. Drivers found out that inattention hurts
>someone else. Darwinism.

Apart from the fact that your proposed mechanism is nonsense, proposed mechanisms are clearly
insufficient. So that's a double zero for you.
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Paul Smith Scotland, UK http://www.safespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives
 
On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:37:05 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> HAVE NO DATA to back up my position,

>No change there, then :)

Very nice snipping.

>> but I wanted to point out that your original conclusion about "cyclists concentrating better"
>> would require evidence; proposed mechanisms are insufficient.

>It has evidence, the effects described are known physiological facts.

So were the alternative cases I offered.

>And the conclusions are supported by other facts, such as drivers being responsible for the
>majority of fatal car-bike crashes.

I don't even know that that's a fact, but even if it is, it could quite conceivably have more to do
with opportunities for fatal error than proportions of inattention.

>You don't ride a bike, do you?

Yawn.
--
Paul Smith Scotland, UK http://www.safespeed.org.uk please remove "XYZ" to reply by email speed
cameras cost lives
 
Richard Burton <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Yes, but mostly by other people! Especially the ones who, in broad daylight, find it difficult to
> see someone wearing fluorescent yellow from head to toe.
>

Its probably that fixation thing - when you stare at something you are trying to miss you tend to
hit it (cue Frasier). Perhaps urban camoflague fatigues would work better for you.

Tony

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http://www.raven-family.com

"All truth goes through three steps: First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed.
Finally, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> writes:

>On Thu, 24 Apr 2003 09:35:52 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Chris Malcolm) wrote:

>>Don't forget that you've done a great deal of learning about how to stop hitting your head; you
>>duck just enough to avoid branches; when falling over backwards you pull your head up just enough
>>to avoid floor impact, etc..

>And all of the above is completely invalidated by the simple and obvious fact that, when riding a
>bike, you are at a different height and attitude than when you are off the bike.

What, your concern is with hitting you're head while you're actually *on* the bike?

You need more than a bike helmet!

I was talking about what happens in an accident, when get separated from the bike, maybe fly through
the air, and hit the ground or other objects with various parts of your anatomy, while your reflexes
try to ensure that you avoid hitting your head by twisting body, throwing arms out, etc..
--
Chris Malcolm [email protected] +44 (0)131 650 3085 School of Artificial Intelligence, Division of
Informatics Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/daidb/people/homes/cam/ ] DoD #205
 
Paul Smith <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> >> but I wanted to point out that your original conclusion
> >> about "cyclists concentrating better" would require evidence;
> >It has evidence, the effects described are known physiological facts.
> So were the alternative cases I offered.

Clearly, then, your use of terms such as "might," "could" and "don't know" needs a little
brushing up.

> >And the conclusions are supported by other facts, such as drivers being responsible for the
> >majority of fatal car-bike crashes.

> I don't even know that that's a fact

It is.

> but even if it is, it could quite conceivably have more to do with opportunities for fatal error
> than proportions of inattention.

Assuming you mean the relative severity of consequences of inattention, that is possible - but that
doesn't mitigate the undoubted fact that very few drivers give uniformly high levels of attention to
their driving, and most drive with one or more sources of distraction running in their car (children
/ radio / phone / whatever). And even during manoeuvres which demand high levels of concentration,
like overtaking on a narrow road, many drivers do not apply the higher level of attention required;
staggering numbers fail even to take the elementary precaution of looking far enough ahead to see if
there is car approaching in the opposite direction. It's as if the sphere of attention extends about
far enough to match, say, the speed of a running human, and not much further.

If you ride a bike like that, you crash fairly soon. If you drive a car like that you become just
another SMIDSY, with cyclists and motorcyclists veering left and right to avoid you as you go your
merry way. Mr Magoo is alive and well and living in a Mondeo near you.

> >You don't ride a bike, do you?
> Yawn.

We'll take that as a "no" then :)
 
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