cycle lane versus cycle path

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Sue Rogers, Jun 24, 2003.

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  1. Sue Rogers

    Sue Rogers Guest

    Hi, I'm looking for some impartial information please on:

    1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.

    2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also travelling
    in both directions.

    3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is painted
    down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians are
    travelling in both directions.

    I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
    personal tales of near-mishaps.

    Also lighting. Is street lighting necessary/legal for 1,2 and 3.

    Info needed for work tied in with Safe Routes to School so aimed at secondary school age children.

    Newsgroup replies or emails are fine.

    Thanks,
     
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  2. Peter Clinch

    Peter Clinch Guest

    Sue Rogers wrote:

    > I'm looking for some impartial information please on:
    >
    > 1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.
    >
    > 2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also travelling
    > in both directions.
    >
    > 3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is
    > painted down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians
    > are travelling in both directions.
    >
    > I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
    > personal tales of near-mishaps.

    It very much depends on the exact implementation and local circumstances
    (i.e., shared use track which has so many pedestrians they ignore the line is no use to anybody,
    undifferentiated shared track with minor ped traffic and open sightlines is generally no
    trouble, cycle lanes marked on the road can be ghastly if they tend to shoehorn cyclists into
    poor places, and so on (and on, and on). You can have superb facilities which in terms of dry
    description are no different to unsafe shockers.

    Not much help, but I'm afraid that's the way it seems to be.

    > Also lighting. Is street lighting necessary/legal for 1,2 and 3.

    I'd ask the council direct on that one.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
    http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
     
  3. Mark Ayliffe

    Mark Ayliffe Guest

    On or about Tue, 24 Jun 2003 at 13:24 GMT, Sue Rogers <[email protected]> illuminated us with:
    > Hi, I'm looking for some impartial information please on:
    >
    > 1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.
    >
    > 2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also travelling
    > in both directions.
    >
    > 3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is
    > painted down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians
    > are travelling in both directions.
    >
    > I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
    > personal tales of near-mishaps.
    >
    > Also lighting. Is street lighting necessary/legal for 1,2 and 3.
    >
    > Info needed for work tied in with Safe Routes to School so aimed at secondary school age children.
    >
    > Newsgroup replies or emails are fine.

    This maybe grandmother egg sucking instruction, but have you looked at the Cambridge Cycle Campaign
    website? Resources http://www.camcycle.org.uk/resources/ and links http://www.camcycle.org.uk/links/
    pages in particular.

    --
    Mark Please remove nospam | A clear conscience is usually the sign to reply by email. | of a bad
    memory. www.ayliffe.org |
     
  4. Panda

    Panda Guest

    Peter Clinch wrote:
    > Sue Rogers wrote:
    >
    >> I'm looking for some impartial information please on:
    >>
    >> 1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.
    >>
    >> 2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also
    >> travelling in both directions.
    >>
    >> 3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is
    >> painted down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians
    >> are travelling in both directions.
    >>
    >> I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
    >> personal tales of near-mishaps.
    >
    > It very much depends on the exact implementation and local circumstances (i.e., shared use track
    > which has so many pedestrians they ignore the line is no use to anybody, undifferentiated shared
    > track with minor ped traffic and open sightlines is generally no trouble, cycle lanes marked on
    > the road can be ghastly if they tend to shoehorn cyclists into poor places, and so on (and on, and
    > on). You can have superb facilities which in terms of dry description are no different to unsafe
    > shockers.
    >
    > Not much help, but I'm afraid that's the way it seems to be.
    >
    >> Also lighting. Is street lighting necessary/legal for 1,2 and 3.
    >
    > I'd ask the council direct on that one.
    >
    > Pete.

    id second that, for instance here in hull we have what sounds like a perfect solution. there is a
    cycle path that runs next to the road, but is seperated off. it can physically not be driven on by
    cars, and since its a step down pedestrians stick to the path. however i avoid it like the plague on
    my journey home, and actually prefer to ride on the "more dangerous" road. the reason for this is
    because the path is hidden from the road by parked cars. it is designed this way and it means that
    drives on the road cannot see you, or you see them as they turn in for side streets. also drivers
    coming out of the side streets assume that the road starts where the parked cars are ( i cant really
    blame them since this is true for most circumstances) so they dont really look for you either. so a
    apparently ideal set-up (theoretically similar to that in holland) has lead to an accident waiting
    to happen.

    panda
     
  5. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    "Sue Rogers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hi, I'm looking for some impartial information please on:
    >
    > 1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.
    >
    > 2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also travelling
    > in both directions.
    >
    > 3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is
    > painted down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians
    > are travelling in both directions.
    >
    > I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
    > personal tales of near-mishaps.
    >
    > Also lighting. Is street lighting necessary/legal for 1,2 and 3.
    >
    > Info needed for work tied in with Safe Routes to School so aimed at secondary school age children.
    >
    > Newsgroup replies or emails are fine.
    >
    > Thanks,

    Impartial may be a little hopeful though if you search back through this newsgroup you will find
    plenty of comments on shared use pavements and cycle lanes.

    In general cyclists are safest on the road. That is where they belong and all this fetishism of
    local councils to get them off the road is simply making life more difficult and dangerous for
    cyclists. Pavements are for pedestrians and toddlers on trikes.

    The problem is that road engineers design roads for the motor car and forget about making them
    suitable for cyclists -- so they paint a gutter green or declare a pavement 'shared use'.

    Probably the best the best thing you can do for secondary age children is traffic calm so that cars
    are travelling slowly. Convincing little Johnny's Mum to let him cycle and leave the Chelsea Tractor
    in the drive will contribute to little Johnny's safety two fold -- it will make him more independent
    and fitter -- and it will remove one more dangerous, badly driven and inappropriate vehicle from the
    neighbourhood of the school.

    Finally, you have to convince the school to let little Johnny park his bike at school. There is
    little point in having safe routes to school if the Head then declares that Johnny must have a
    helmet, facemask, gloves, body armour etc -- but that, since there is nowhere to store this stuff,
    with regret, facilities must be withdrawn (don't laugh -- some schools have been so b**** awkward.

    Schools should be prevailed upon to provide proper, adequate training to the kids, sufficient,
    secure bike storage (hell -- didn't we all learn some very valuable lessons behind the bike sheds!!)
    and leave other issues (helmets etc) to the parents.

    When the engineers start to plan the system ask them 1. what the breakdown of journeys is now and 2.
    what they plan it should be post the work -- bet they can't tell you.

    T
     
  6. Iarocu

    Iarocu Guest

    Sue Rogers <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Hi, I'm looking for some impartial information please on:
    >
    > 1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.
    >
    > 2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also travelling
    > in both directions.
    >
    > 3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is
    > painted down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians
    > are travelling in both directions.
    >
    > I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
    > personal tales of near-mishaps.
    >
    > Also lighting. Is street lighting necessary/legal for 1,2 and 3.

    > Hi Have you looked at www.lesberries.co.uk/cycling/cycling.html.
    John Franklins site. cheers Iain
     
  7. Gareth Rees

    Gareth Rees Guest

    Sue Rogers wrote:
    > I'm looking for some impartial information please on:
    >
    > 1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.
    > 2. Cycle paths [shared]
    > 3. Cycle paths [separated]
    >
    > I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
    > personal tales of near-mishaps.

    You don't say what aspect of cycle infrastructure you're looking at. Safety? Cost?
    Effectiveness? Usage?

    If you're looking at safety, there's a bibliography of research at
    <http://www.lesberries.co.uk/cycling/infra/research.html>.

    --
    Gareth Rees
     
  8. Tim Ward

    Tim Ward Guest

    "Tony W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Impartial may be a little hopeful

    Indeed, I think she may be looking in the wrong place.

    > In general cyclists are safest on the road. That is where they belong and all this fetishism of
    > local councils to get them off the road

    No, that is not what happens. Not round here, anyway. The councils have no desire to stop anyone
    cycling on the road if that's what they want to do. This is quite explicit in the documents and
    discussions, and is even a point of agreement between officers and councillors.

    > Probably the best the best thing you can do for secondary age children is traffic calm so that
    > cars are travelling slowly.

    Provided that this can be done in such a way that doesn't make things worse for cyclists, ie no
    bumps, no build-outs, no pinch points, no 20cm wide cycle "bypasses", ...

    --
    Tim Ward - posting as an individual unless otherwise clear Brett Ward Ltd - www.brettward.co.uk
    Cambridge Accommodation Notice Board - www.brettward.co.uk/canb Cambridge City Councillor
     
  9. Simon Mason

    Simon Mason Guest

    "panda" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    >
    > id second that, for instance here in hull we have what sounds like a
    perfect
    > solution. there is a cycle path that runs next to the road, but is
    seperated
    > off. it can physically not be driven on by cars, and since its a step down pedestrians stick to
    > the path. however i avoid it like the plague on my journey home, and actually prefer to ride on
    > the "more dangerous" road.

    Which cycle path is it Panda?
    --
    Simon Mason Anlaby East Yorkshire. 53°44'N 0°26'W http://www.simonmason.karoo.net
     
  10. "Sue Rogers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hi, I'm looking for some impartial information please on:
    >
    > 1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.
    >
    > 2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also travelling
    > in both directions.
    >
    > 3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is
    > painted down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians
    > are travelling in both directions.
    >
    > I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
    > personal tales of near-mishaps.
    >
    > Also lighting. Is street lighting necessary/legal for 1,2 and 3.
    >
    > Info needed for work tied in with Safe Routes to School so aimed at secondary school age children.
    >
    > Newsgroup replies or emails are fine.
    >
    > Thanks,

    CTC have reports on this.
     
  11. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:24:42 +0100, Sue Rogers <[email protected]> wrote:

    >I'm looking for some impartial information please on:

    I suggest you subscribe to transport_health at yahoo groups and ask them - Meyer Hillman is a
    regular contributor and may well have the Right Answers. They are very helpful.

    Guy
    ===
    ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com Advance
    notice: ADSL service in process of transfer to a new ISP. Obviously there will be a week of downtime
    between the engineer removing the BT service and the same engineer connecting the same equipment on
    the same line in the same exchange and billing it to the new ISP.
     
  12. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    "Tim Ward" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > No, that is not what happens. Not round here, anyway. The councils have no desire to stop anyone
    > cycling on the road if that's what they want to do. This is quite explicit in the documents and
    > discussions, and is even a
    point
    > of agreement between officers and councillors.

    Utopia!!

    Cambridge is different.

    > > Probably the best the best thing you can do for secondary age children
    is
    > > traffic calm so that cars are travelling slowly.
    >
    > Provided that this can be done in such a way that doesn't make things
    worse
    > for cyclists, ie no bumps, no build-outs, no pinch points, no 20cm wide cycle "bypasses", ...

    All very true.

    T
     
  13. On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:02:25 +0100, panda <[email protected]> wrote:
    > id second that, for instance here in hull we have what sounds like a perfect solution. there is a
    > cycle path that runs next to the road, but is seperated off. it can physically not be driven on by
    > cars, and since its a step down pedestrians stick to the path.

    Here in Peterborough we have a road (dual carriageway) with grass divider from the pavement. Then
    there is some bushes, then the cycle path. Some people still ride on the pavement. Personally I
    prefer the road as the cycle path is a bit rutted and certainly not as good a surface as the road
    even if it wasn't.

    --
    Andy Leighton => [email protected] "The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep
    dog trials"
    - Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
     
  14. Ric

    Ric Guest

    "Sue Rogers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hi, I'm looking for some impartial information please on:
    >
    Impartial? That's a bit optimistic! But you might like to look at Germany. Many towns there (an
    excellent example is Konstanz) have gone down a long investigatory trail with all sorts of
    university research projects on these questions and have concluded that "it depends". If you are in
    urban different to suburb, different to country etc. But the common factor is that the best solution
    overall is to educate/discipline/fine/imprison the cyclists worst enemy - the aggressive car-driver.
    Go on holiday to a German cycling town (most but Konstanz is a good example) - you will love it and
    learn a huge amount even if you don't speak German.
     
  15. David Hansen

    David Hansen Guest

    On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:24:42 +0100 someone who may be Sue Rogers <[email protected]> wrote this:-

    >I'm looking for some impartial information please on:

    Everybody thinks that they are impartial, but that does not mean that they are.

    >1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.

    Can be useful; if they are wide enough, are not obstructed by parked motor vehicles, pass outside
    the door zone of motor vehicles parked inside them, do not narrow when they should get wider,
    adopt the correct road position at junctions, are regularly swept and many other things. The
    important thing is that they are designed by people who understand how to cycle properly, ie not
    most road builders.

    >2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also travelling
    > in both directions.

    Likely to be highly dangerous for everyone using it.

    >3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is painted
    > down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians are
    > travelling in both directions.

    Possibly marginally less dangerous than 2.

    >I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
    >personal tales of near-mishaps.

    Follow the references others have given and use something like Google. There are a number of facts
    and figures about York, how far they are broken down I have no idea.

    You didn't include 4. Cycling on the road in a proper fashion, with cycle facilities provided at the
    most dangerous places for cyclists, junctions. Such facilities would include a roundabout removal
    programme (there is one in Edinburgh) and Advanced Stop Lines.

    >Also lighting. Is street lighting necessary/legal for 1,2 and 3.

    Not here. I presume it is the same in Cambridge.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
    keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
     
  16. Martin Read

    Martin Read Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, David Hansen <> wrote:
    >On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 14:24:42 +0100 someone who may be Sue Rogers <[email protected]> wrote this:-
    >>I'm looking for some impartial information please on:
    >
    >Everybody thinks that they are impartial, but that does not mean that they are.

    I tend to think I'm partial even when I'm not :)

    m.
    --
    \_\/_/| Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish. \ / | eine answeringmachine
    fuer letzte frage als selbstschussanlage \/ | stuhl. letztendlich letztmalig ein hecke brennender
    buesche ------+ -- Einstuerzende Neubauten, "Sie"
     
  17. Peter Fox

    Peter Fox Guest

    Following on from Sue Rogers's message. . .
    >Hi, I'm looking for some impartial information please on:
    >
    >1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.
    >
    >2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also travelling
    > in both directions.
    >
    >3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is painted
    > down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians are
    > travelling in both directions.
    >
    >I need pros and cons for both, facts and figures rather than emotive views on which is best or
    >personal tales of near-mishaps.
    >
    >Also lighting. Is street lighting necessary/legal for 1,2 and 3.
    >
    >Info needed for work tied in with Safe Routes to School so aimed at secondary school age children.

    Beware of the factual approach. Engineers love it as they can prove anything with bogus figures. To
    them a solid white line is an effective separator but as we all that is nonsense.

    Cost and engineering preferences may affect what is possible in a practical world. There are, ahem,
    'standards' such as LTN 2/86 (Local Transport Note 2/86 from the DoH web site. Engineers may say
    things like "Oh we can't possibly do that because there isn't enough room according to "the
    standard".

    Shared use without lights is a definite no-no. (Shared use is a last resort anyway.)

    It may be worth turning SRTS round and looking at perceived and actual danger points. For example
    crossing a road, turning right, parked cars, lorry movements or a parade of shops.

    Consider time separation - This causes ructions initially but appears to be quite successful.

    IMHO making cycling to school dependent on the provision of cycle facilities is likely to scupper
    the whole thing and definitely the wrong way to go about it.

    So real good practice and an experienced eye for what is important and possible may be more valuable
    than 'standards' and statistics[1]. There are probably people here who could visit and help you
    assess possibilities and suggest options and action points.

    [1] The County Council (Or other Hghway authority) has access to accident data collected by the
    police. "Stats20". Ask for a listing of say the last 3 years of cycle/pedestrian accidents and a
    map. Although these are only the tip of the iceberg they may point to patterns.

    --
    PETER FOX Not the same since the deckchair business folded

    Witham Cycling Campaign www.eminent.demon.co.uk/wcc.htm East Anglian Pub cycle rides
    www.eminent.demon.co.uk/rides
     
  18. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

    Sue Rogers wrote:

    > Hi, I'm looking for some impartial information please on:
    >

    Good luck ;-)

    > 1. Cycle lanes marked in the road.
    >
    > 2. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a pavement shared with pedestrians also travelling
    > in both directions.
    >
    > 3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is
    > painted down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians
    > are travelling in both directions.

    Too bad no-one is dicsussing my favourite: seperate paths (say, seperated by curbs), like we use in
    Denmark. Oh, and where there isn't space for seperate paths, the cycles have to go in the road with
    the cars and nowhere near the pedestrians.

    Ahh, to be in a country where one can cycle safely :-( :-(

    Regards

    Jens
    - --
    Key ID 0x09723C12, [email protected]/[email protected] Analogue filtering / 5GHz RLAN / Mdk
    Linux / odds and ends http://www.imaginet.fr/~jensting/ +44 1223 211 585 "Pourqoi ?" "On me paye
    pour ca" 'Le Samourai' -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux)

    iD8DBQE++Tr2imJs3AlyPBIRAuwRAKCHJTuaqllvLKm34YjTjZGSzmFdPQCfWipA p4RTdNjSQGj8U3FQmlS8cTA= =qyAw
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
     
  19. Panda

    Panda Guest

    clarence street , between holderness road and alfred gelder street, east of the bridge

    panda

    Simon Mason wrote:
    > "panda" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >>
    >> id second that, for instance here in hull we have what sounds like a perfect solution. there is a
    >> cycle path that runs next to the road, but is seperated off. it can physically not be driven on
    >> by cars, and since its a step down pedestrians stick to the path. however i avoid it like the
    >> plague on my journey home, and actually prefer to ride on the "more dangerous" road.
    >
    > Which cycle path is it Panda?
     
  20. David Hansen wrote:

    >> 3. Cycle paths where the cycle path is 2-way on a sufficiently wide pavement that a line is
    >> painted down middle so cyclist use one half and pedestrians the other half. Again pedestrians
    >> are travelling in both directions.
    >
    > Possibly marginally less dangerous than 2.

    Possibly, but unlikely, coz the wretched pedos are incapable of paying any attention to the lines.
    There is one like this around part of the Tottenham one-way system, but after a day when I nearly
    nowed down a women with a pram, a bloke with his nose buried in "Auto Trader", two coppers and
    two-thirds of a bus queue, I came to the conclusion that the road was safer as everyone there was
    moving in the same direction and at least doing lip service to the concept of looking where they're
    going. And have not used the path since.

    Such paths are the Work of Stan and should be utterly cryt doune and nocht usyt.

    Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
    ===========================================================
    Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
    http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
    ===========================================================
     
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