This captures the point brilliantly, no punishment from those who infringe cyclists rights
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7308895.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7308895.stm
Cycle lanes for cyclists only then
- Thread starter dvnjhn
- Start date
Honestly I think large cities put in bike lanes just to keep the cycling community off their asses.Car drivers will never "get" bike lanes.I think the politicos do a bare minimum to appease us. the ones i have ridden locally are full of droppings,like rocks and sand!as cars drive by, all the road **** goes in the bike lane and sits there for weeks before a streetcleaner churns it up. so you end up riding into traffic any way.
7wheels said:
Drivers can get it. There are cities where they get it. You need a city government that sees cycling as an asset, and you need cyclists that will work with city officials. If the city doesn't see cycling as a benfit or sees it as a nuisance, then work to change their minds. Work with them, not against them.
Not doing anything just about guarantees you'll gain nothing.
Here, city and county officials, as well as drivers, get it. We already have several hundred miles of bike lane and paths, and last year we voted to pay for the addition of another several hundred miles and for renovation of intersections to make them safer for cyclists. On top of all that, essentially every town in the metro area and county have regulations that require that all new roads and widened roads have to have bicycle lanes included in the project.
Alienator, that is great, but I really think that your city sounds like the exception that proves the rule. Here in Italy we are truly seen as a nuisance in what is an overwhelmingly car-oriented culture. 
Powerful Pete said:Alienator, that is great, but I really think that your city sounds like the exception that proves the rule. Here in Italy we are truly seen as a nuisance in what is an overwhelmingly car-oriented culture.
No, I don't it does. I don't think it's true that drivers "can't get it." Maybe they don't in a lot of areas, but that doesn't mean it can't. It takes effort, education to make the change. It'll happen one way or another, either by choice or as a result of oil prices going much higher in the future and oil supplies dwindling.
the incusion of bike lanes on new and road work roads sounds great.
In the town where i am I think the budget gets eaten by pothole repairs.
99 % of the roads here are more suited to a mountain bike than a road bike.(I just ordered a cross bike for two major reasons)
1 The local roads are ****
2 GAS prices
Ok 3 They look like a blast to ride
And that is sad because the area is really nice. We have miles of rolling farm land,moraines and forest but you can't look at the scenery for fear of going ass over teakettle
Toronto is trying to get more bike lanes and such but I think we lag behind other major cities.
In the town where i am I think the budget gets eaten by pothole repairs.
99 % of the roads here are more suited to a mountain bike than a road bike.(I just ordered a cross bike for two major reasons)
1 The local roads are ****
2 GAS prices
Ok 3 They look like a blast to ride
And that is sad because the area is really nice. We have miles of rolling farm land,moraines and forest but you can't look at the scenery for fear of going ass over teakettle
Toronto is trying to get more bike lanes and such but I think we lag behind other major cities.
The oil issue is a different one. But remember what the price of gasoline/diesel is here in the Old World, and the relatively little impact that it has had on driving - all it has done is force car manufacturers to develop more fuel efficient cars. But people here still insist on using their cars to do everything and go everywhere.alienator said:
Having said that, we now actually have a few kms of real cycling paths in Rome, something I would have never believed possible a few years ago, so maybe you are on to something... (northern Italy is different, they are light years ahead of us in this respect).
Powerful Pete said:The oil issue is a different one. But remember what the price of gasoline/diesel is here in the Old World, and the relatively little impact that it has had on driving - all it has done is force car manufacturers to develop more fuel efficient cars. But people here still insist on using their cars to do everything and go everywhere.
Having said that, we now actually have a few kms of real cycling paths in Rome, something I would have never believed possible a few years ago, so maybe you are on to something... (northern Italy is different, they are light years ahead of us in this respect).
Yeah, I understand. This one of those "pay me now or pay me later" things, though, I think, and if there's anywhere that a bike can be shown to work an a large scale like this, it's Europe where alternative transportation--trains, in this case--between other cities is already well developed on a large scale. Europe has the best possible scenario for making bicycles a major transportation mode in cities. The reality, though, is like you describe: it's driven by the wants of people and their lack of foresight.
Well, you shouldn't generalize to the whole of Europe. Cycling is part of mainstream and is very well developed in many cities in Germany, and in Netherlands. Don't know about other European countries. Yes, there are people who commute 20-80 km (each way) per day in a car in spite of high price of gas, but a significant fraction of the population also bike.alienator said:
Yes Darklord, I guess I was not clear in my original mail. I notice a major difference already been Rome and northern Italy (I actually vacationed in the Trento area this year to be able to access the wonderful bike paths with the entire family). Walking around towns like Trento and Bolzano I noticed the huge amount of bicycles used by all (from the traffic police to university students to office workers) to get around.
Rome is much less fortunate in this respect - there are a significant number of cyclists - the lycra-clad and shaved leg crowd, but commuting cyclists are still few and far between.
I also remember with great fondness my time in university in places like Belgium, where EVERY road had a cycling path shoulder that made it quite safe to ride/train just about anywhere! If only the weather were a bit better there...
Rome is much less fortunate in this respect - there are a significant number of cyclists - the lycra-clad and shaved leg crowd, but commuting cyclists are still few and far between.
I also remember with great fondness my time in university in places like Belgium, where EVERY road had a cycling path shoulder that made it quite safe to ride/train just about anywhere! If only the weather were a bit better there...
Yes, and if there is no bike path, you can use the road without any problems from the motorists. They expect it, and accept you in the road. I do hear you about the weather - sunshine is a very rare commodity.Powerful Pete said:
We have no trouble (or not an unusual amount of trouble) training on roads around Rome, that is not really the issue. Car drivers know where the riders train, or rather, are used to seeing us on certain roads.TheDarkLord said:
What the system has not encouraged in any meaningful manner here in Rome is the use of the bicycle as a means of transportation - an alternative to public transport, private cars and/or motorcycles/scooters.
That is the crux of the issue - if you are riding a bicycle you are a cyclist out for a training ride. The idea of riding to work or school is not even considered...
I always picture Europe as bicycle friendly, although I have never traveled there... But I do recall seeing some video long ago of drivers in Italy (I believe it was Rome) that made me realize that I never wanted to drive there, so I can imagine the hassle of cycling in those congested areas is very risky.Powerful Pete said:
I also see pictures of old bicycles parked against walls in quaint villages, so I was under the impression (from far too limited information) that cycling is a way of life in Italy... whether racing or not.
Cycling here in the coal country of Pennsylvania we have a lot in common with Italy in the cycling realm. No bike lanes, and only a few routes where cyclists are seen as anything but a nuisance. And you can hardly drive a mile without passing an Italian restaurant.
Again, the congestion is something you get used to. I hate driving in the US, while I have no trouble here...dgregory57 said:I always picture Europe as bicycle friendly, although I have never traveled there... But I do recall seeing some video long ago of drivers in Italy (I believe it was Rome) that made me realize that I never wanted to drive there, so I can imagine the hassle of cycling in those congested areas is very risky.
I also see pictures of old bicycles parked against walls in quaint villages, so I was under the impression (from far too limited information) that cycling is a way of life in Italy... whether racing or not.
Cycling here in the coal country of Pennsylvania we have a lot in common with Italy in the cycling realm. No bike lanes, and only a few routes where cyclists are seen as anything but a nuisance. And you can hardly drive a mile without passing an Italian restaurant.
Northern Italy (Tuscany/Umbria on up) is the cycling heartland here. In the center and south we are... accepted.
But I would venture to say that with the exception of Lombardia and Veneto cycling, northern Europe is where you want to be for cycling 'as a way of life'.
