Cycle ride, Sun 02 March 2003: Glasgow - Falkirk Wheel (via Canal)

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by David Marsh, Feb 25, 2003.

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  1. David Marsh

    David Marsh Guest

    Go Bike cycle ride, Sun 02 March 2003: Glasgow - Falkirk Wheel (via Forth & Clyde Canal)

    Visit the impressive engineering achievement of the Falkirk Wheel which links the Forth & Clyde and
    Union Canals, and perhaps take a boat ride high up into the sky? Chill out by following the
    traffic-free canal towpath through some hidden central Scotland countryside, which, on a fine sunny
    spring day (here's hoping) can actually be quite pleasant.. And no shortage of canalside pubs for
    emergency refreshments or shelter from any rain.

    Route: via the Forth & Clyde Canal from Glasgow - Kirkintilloch - Falkirk.

    Return to Glasgow by train: from Falkirk High (limited bike spaces) or from Larbert. Or cycle back
    along the canal (ride leaders: anybody up for that?)

    Meet: 11:00, Bell's Bridge, Scottish Exhibition Centre, Finnieston, Glasgow.

    (or phone the Go Bike mobile to arrange to meet elsewhere on the canal)

    Further information from: 07932 460093, http://www.GoBike.org/

    All welcome: children under 16 must be accompanied by an adult.

    --
    David Marsh, <reply-to-email is valid at time of writing> | Glasgow, Scotland. [en, fr, (de)] |
    http://web.viewport.co.uk/ | begin usenet by learning how to post: read news:news.announce.newusers
    >I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interspersed style<
     
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  2. Simon Mason

    Simon Mason Guest

  3. David Marsh

    David Marsh Guest

    [Traditional interleaved quoting: please read to end for all comments]

    Simon Mason wrote in scot.general: about: Re: Cycle ride, Sun 02 March 2003: Glasgow - Falkirk Wheel
    (via Canal)

    > Was there supposed to be an attachment to your post?

    Hi Simon..

    No, no attachment. I post in plaintext only, from a non-Windoze environment. No risk from me :)

    > I didn't open it as it could be a virus.

    Hmm.. Ah, oh, it was my sig, and your newsreader disagreeing with it ;-)

    No personal offence intended, but it's my mission to make using Outbreak as difficult as possible
    until M$ fix all of the known bugs in it and make it standards-compliant. I suspect I may be waiting
    some time :-(

    --
    David Marsh, <reply-to-email is valid at time of writing> | Glasgow, Scotland. [en, fr, (de)] |
    http://web.viewport.co.uk/ | begin usenet by learning how to post: read news:news.announce.newusers
    >I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interspersed style<
     
  4. Simon Mason

    Simon Mason Guest

    "David Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > [Traditional interleaved quoting: please read to end for all comments]
    >
    >
    > Simon Mason wrote in scot.general: about: Re: Cycle ride, Sun 02 March 2003: Glasgow - Falkirk
    > Wheel (via
    Canal)
    >
    > > Was there supposed to be an attachment to your post?
    >
    > Hi Simon..
    >
    > No, no attachment. I post in plaintext only, from a non-Windoze environment. No risk from me
    :)
    >
    >
    > > I didn't open it as it could be a virus.
    >
    > Hmm.. Ah, oh, it was my sig, and your newsreader disagreeing with it ;-)
    >
    > No personal offence intended, but it's my mission to make using Outbreak as difficult as possible
    > until M$ fix all of the known bugs in it and make it standards-compliant. I suspect I may be
    > waiting some time :-(

    Ah, that was it. Thanks. Simon
     
  5. "David Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > [Traditional interleaved quoting: please read to end for all comments]
    >
    >
    > Simon Mason wrote in scot.general: about: Re: Cycle ride, Sun 02 March 2003: Glasgow - Falkirk
    > Wheel (via
    Canal)
    >
    > > Was there supposed to be an attachment to your post?
    >
    > Hi Simon..
    >
    > No, no attachment. I post in plaintext only, from a non-Windoze environment. No risk from me
    :)
    >
    >
    > > I didn't open it as it could be a virus.
    >
    > Hmm.. Ah, oh, it was my sig, and your newsreader disagreeing with it ;-)
    >
    > No personal offence intended, but it's my mission to make using Outbreak as difficult as possible
    > until M$ fix all of the known bugs in it and make it standards-compliant. I suspect I may be
    > waiting some time :-(
    >
    >
    > --
    > David Marsh, <reply-to-email is valid at time of writing> | Glasgow, Scotland. [en, fr, (de)] |
    > http://web.viewport.co.uk/ |
    >
    Frae Auld Bob Peffers: The very good reason OE is the target for all sorts is the very fact that it
    is the most used. Every plonker that ever was wants to do down Microsoft. Face it, if they did not
    have MS to get at they would target someone else.
    --
    Aefauldlie, (Scots for Sincerely),, frae Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers, In Kelty, *Kingdom Of Fife*,
    Scotland, (UK). [email protected] (Remove specs to make reply).

    *The Eck's Files*, Web Site is http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk/

    ---
    Aa ootgannin mail free frae wee beasties.. Checked by AVG anti-virus system
    (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.456 / Virus Database: 256 - Release Date: 18/02/03
     
  6. Nick Kew

    Nick Kew Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, one of infinite monkeys at the keyboard of "Simon
    Mason" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Was there supposed to be an attachment to your post? I didn't open it as it could be a virus.

    What *are* you on?

    Oh, I see, your headers tell me you have a virus. And no, there wasn't an attachment to
    David's post.

    --
    Wear your paunch with pride!
     
  7. Nick Kew

    Nick Kew Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, one of infinite monkeys at the keyboard of "Robert
    Peffers" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Frae Auld Bob Peffers: The very good reason OE is the target for all sorts is the very fact that
    > it is the most used. Every plonker that ever was wants to do down Microsoft. Face it, if they did
    > not have MS to get at they would target someone else.

    Rubbish.

    You want to read a complete recipe for an Outlook virus? You can read one published in 1992. Yes,
    that's several years before Outlook existed.

    It's part of the formal standard for MIME attachments in internet mail. The recipe is by way of
    background information, explaining the kind of thing that could happen if some moron ignored the
    relevant parts of the standard. At the time of writing, it was purely hypothetical.

    I don't blame you as a user for not being familiar with the standards. But if you were to write
    an Internet mailer, I hope you'd take the time to read them, and I would not be sympathetic if
    you didn't.

    --
    Wear your paunch with pride!
     
  8. Robert Peffers <[email protected]> wrote:
    >"David Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>No personal offence intended, but it's my mission to make using Outbreak as difficult as possible
    >>until M$ fix all of the known bugs in it and make it standards-compliant. I suspect I may be
    >>waiting some time :-(
    >The very good reason OE is the target for all sorts is the very fact that it is the most used.

    Except it's, er, not, in many groups - and it's also true that it's a popular target because it is
    full of holes.
    --
    David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!
     
  9. "David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:2qD*[email protected]...
    > Robert Peffers <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >"David Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >>No personal offence intended, but it's my mission to make using Outbreak as difficult as
    > >>possible until M$ fix all of the known bugs in it and make it standards-compliant. I suspect I
    > >>may be waiting some time :-(
    > >The very good reason OE is the target for all sorts is the very fact that
    it
    > >is the most used.
    >
    > Except it's, er, not, in many groups - and it's also true that it's a popular target because it is
    > full of holes.
    > --
    > David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!
    Frae Auld Bob Peffers: Na! The holes are only exposed due to every oik on the internet looking for
    them due to OE being the most used mail/news client. If it was a little used programme they would
    not bother.
    --
    Aefauldlie, (Scots for Sincerely),, frae Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers, In Kelty, *Kingdom Of Fife*,
    Scotland, (UK). [email protected] (Remove specs to make reply).

    *The Eck's Files*, Web Site is http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk/

    ---
    Aa ootgannin mail free frae wee beasties.. Checked by AVG anti-virus system
    (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.456 / Virus Database: 256 - Release Date: 18/02/03
     
  10. Simon Ward

    Simon Ward Guest

    In uk.rec.cycling Robert Peffers <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I am in my mid seventies and have been involved in computers since 1952.
    And it's pretty bloody obvious that some of your computing knowledge is firmly wedged in the early
    50s as well.

    Simon
    --
    Simon Ward, Accent Optical Technologies (UK) Ltd., York, YO31 8SD, UK "Perl is the ideal tool for
    the inspired slacker who'd rather sing and dance than spend longer than they need to at work ..."
    - http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2002/12/18/hohoho.html
     
  11. Auld Bob

    Auld Bob Guest

    nux.net> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > In uk.rec.cycling Robert Peffers <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > I am in my mid seventies and have been involved in computers since 1952.
    > And it's pretty bloody obvious that some of your computing knowledge is firmly wedged in the
    > early 50s as well.
    >
    > Simon
    > --
    > Simon Ward, Accent Optical Technologies (UK) Ltd., York, YO31 8SD, UK "Perl is the ideal tool for
    > the inspired slacker who'd rather sing and
    dance
    > than spend longer than they need to at work ..." -
    http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2002/12/18/hohoho.html

    Frae Auld Bob Peffers: OooooH! Ageism and bigotry is it? There are many of us old uns who are not
    suffering Alzheimer's yet. Now tell me just what is there about my points you think has me stuck in
    a time warp? Do you disagree with my claim MS OE is the most used Mail/News client? Do you disagree
    with my claim that people who wish to either spread troublesome little programmes or break into
    other people's systems concentrate most on the most used mail/news programme,(they would be stupid
    if they did not)? Is it just that you have a built in dislike of older people and you are biased
    against Microsoft? The whole fact is that you have given no good reason for your claim. I, on the
    other hand have given good reasons for people using OE and for people to get at OE. All this has
    nothing to do with technical merit and I never claimed that it did. All this shows you are just one
    more bigot and ageist nutter.
    --
    Frae Auld Bob Peffers, [email protected]

    Web Site The Eck's Fifes http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk/
     
  12. Tim Woodall

    Tim Woodall Guest

    On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 13:24:52 -0000, Auld Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Do you disagree with my claim MS OE is the most used Mail/News client?

    No.

    > Do you disagree with my claim that people who wish to either spread troublesome little programmes
    > or break into other people's systems concentrate most on the most used mail/news programme,(they
    > would be stupid if they did not)?

    Yes. Otherwise these "crackers" would attack apache rather than IIS. Its a combination of them not
    being very good and needing a soft target.

    Or atacking oracle rather than bringing the internet to its knees for a few hours by attacking
    sqlserver.

    The "crackers" are just lucky in the Outlook/OE case that the soft target is also the biggest target
    although IIS and SQLServer prove that that isn't really necessary. A 20% market share is big enough
    for the "crackers" to cause everybody a headache so why waste effort going for the hard targets.

    And there have been worms for wu-ftpd on RedHat. I can't belive this makes up more than 10-20% at
    most of the "targets" and yet someone went to the bother. But then wu-ftpd has a repuatation as
    being something of a soft target as well.

    > And you are biased against Microsoft?

    When I get called out of bed on a Saturday morning because an important server has suddenly died
    only to discover so other prat on the same subnet has decided to run an M$ product and has managed
    to flood the network and _EVERYTHING_ else on the network is working perfectly then yes, I'm biased.
    And when I investigate further and discover that you needed a PhD in order to install an M$ patch
    and it doesn't work on MSDE anyway then I'm a little more sympathetic of my contemporary M$ admins
    and have and even greater dislike of M$.

    So, no it's not that crackers attack OE because its the biggest target, crackers attack OE because
    it's the easiest target. The fact that OE has the biggest share of the news/email market and their
    users are, for the most part completely clueless, means that it is guaranteed to cause the maximum
    headache and problems to the entire internet.

    Tim.

    --
    God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.

    http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/
     
  13. Simon Mason

    Simon Mason Guest

    "Nick Kew" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:eek:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, one of infinite monkeys at the keyboard of "Simon
    > Mason" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Was there supposed to be an attachment to your post? I didn't open it
    as
    > > it could be a virus.
    >
    > What *are* you on?
    >
    > Oh, I see, your headers tell me you have a virus. And no, there wasn't an attachment to
    > David's post.

    In OE David's posts all have a separate file attached called "usenet by learning how to post_
    read news_news.announce"

    Simon
     
  14. Auld Bob

    Auld Bob Guest

    "Tim Woodall" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]... snip

    > So, no it's not that crackers attack OE because its the biggest target, crackers attack OE because
    > it's the easiest target. The fact that OE has the biggest share of the news/email market and their
    > users are, for the most part completely clueless, means that it is guaranteed to cause the maximum
    > headache and problems to the entire internet.
    >
    >
    > Tim.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.
    >
    > http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/
    Frae Auld Bob Peffers: You know as well as I do that much of the bother actually comes from the
    script kiddies who have little clue as to what they are doing. The people who do what they are doing
    have one of two motives. Probably the people with the most at stake are those who produce the
    anti-viral and firewall programmes. Now they would probably never admit to it but it is in their
    best interests if the danger out there continues. No danger then no sales.

    The other catagory are after bigger fish with some making a name for themselves and some even
    getting employed under the old, old adage of set a theif to catch a thief. These are the ones who
    find the holes in programmes and who produce the programmes that cause the trouble. Now if almost
    everyone is using Windows and Windows gives OE away free then that is a powerful incentive to find a
    hole in OE. If the majority programme became something else then these eople would concentrate on
    that programme. The wholw name of the game is to cause as much chaos as possible and that means
    hitting on the most popular software - whateve it is.

    I have only ever been hit twice and one of those was caused by me taking down the defences while
    making some major changes. It was only down for les than 30 seconds.the resultant worm did not cause
    too much bother. The other is on one machine just now and is rather a weired one..I have not quite
    solved it yet. I can tell you it is very fleeting, does little harm but causes a lot of frustration.
    When I get some time I will check it through. It may even prove to be an electronic rather than
    software fault. I have to say, though, it is on OE.
    --
    Frae Auld Bob Peffers, [email protected]

    Web Site The Eck's Fifes http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk/
     
  15. David Marsh

    David Marsh Guest

    [Traditional interleaved quoting: please read to end for all comments]

    Robert Peffers wrote in scot.general: about: Re: Cycle ride, Sun 02 March 2003: Glasgow - Falkirk
    Wheel (via Canal)

    > "David Marsh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>
    >> No personal offence intended, but it's my mission to make using Outbreak as difficult as possible
    >> until M$ fix all of the known bugs in it and make it standards-compliant. I suspect I may be
    >> waiting some time :-(
    >>
    >>
    > The very good reason OE is the target for all sorts is the very fact that it is the most used.
    > Every plonker that ever was wants to do down Microsoft. Face it, if they did not have MS to get at
    > they would target someone else.

    No Bob, it's simply because it's a pile of junk, as noted above.

    The sad fact is that most M$ stuff is a pile of junk. Their "OS" is based on DOS, which is an aged,
    stunted, featureless pile of junk, and everything else is kludged onto that.

    If M$ actually did something "right", I'd be happy for them (but fearful for the rest of us). Sadly,
    I don't see that happening any time soon. (Look, I actually *like* the (idea of the)
    calendaring/organiser functions of full-on Outbreak, it's just a damn shame the program is so broken
    otherwise, and uses proprietary (ie, non-interchangeable) data formats, rendering it unacceptable in
    a world where free choice is important!)

    Apple had the right idea: the Mac OS was elegant, but getting old, so they rightly decided to
    re-implement it based on a well-designed and well-tested unix core..

    "'Good enough' *is* the death knell of progress" as various people's sigs have said (no idea who
    actually said it!). That's why M$'s failings make me particularly sad, not to mention all their
    well-known anti-competitive, lock-in and illegal/immoral activities..

    Anyway, this has started getting beyond off-topic..

    --
    David Marsh, <reply-to-email is valid at time of writing> | Glasgow, Scotland. [en, fr, (de)] |
    http://web.viewport.co.uk/ | begin usenet by learning how to post: read news:news.announce.newusers
    >I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interspersed style<
     
  16. David Marsh

    David Marsh Guest

    [Traditional interleaved quoting: please read to end for all comments]

    Robert Peffers wrote in scot.general: about: Re: Cycle ride, Sun 02 March 2003: Glasgow - Falkirk
    Wheel (via Canal)

    > Na! The holes are only exposed due to every oik on the internet looking for

    I think that expert computer professionals would object to being described as oiks..

    > them due to OE being the most used mail/news client. If it was a little used programme they would
    > not bother.

    In this day and age, any internet-aware program which does not take security seriously *deserves*
    all the ridicule it gets. That's what peer review and "the bazaar versus the cathedral" [sic] are
    about. M$ have been peer-reviewed and shown to be *still* lacking.

    But, go on, feel free to do your online banking transactions (etc) with insecure versions of
    Internet Exploder if you wish (see CERT advisories for sample flaws). With that level of risk often
    presented, security fixes are a requirement, not a wishlist..

    I for one don't want any "oik" to have access to my finances!

    --
    David Marsh, <reply-to-email is valid at time of writing> | Glasgow, Scotland. [en, fr, (de)] |
    http://web.viewport.co.uk/ | begin usenet by learning how to post: read news:news.announce.newusers
    >I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interspersed style<
     
  17. David Marsh

    David Marsh Guest

    [Traditional interleaved quoting: please read to end for all comments]

    Auld Bob wrote in scot.general: about: Re: Cycle ride, Sun 02 March 2003: Glasgow - Falkirk Wheel
    (via Canal)

    > is that you have given no good reason for your claim. I, on the other hand have given good reasons
    > for people using OE and for people to get at OE. All

    The only reason people use OE is inertia and lack of awareness that there are alternatives. I'll bet
    if your average home user was even remotely aware of the history of security problems in the OE/IE
    combo, they'd run away screaming. I know I did. (Well, I never went there in the first place, but
    the security holes have me (silently) screaming)

    --
    David Marsh, <reply-to-email is valid at time of writing> | Glasgow, Scotland. [en, fr, (de)] |
    http://web.viewport.co.uk/ | begin usenet by learning how to post: read news:news.announce.newusers
    >I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interspersed style<
     
  18. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    David Marsh wrote:

    > The sad fact is that most M$ stuff is a pile of junk. Their "OS" is based on DOS, which is an
    > aged, stunted, featureless pile of junk, and everything else is kludged onto that.

    are you sure about that? really really sure? (check calendar before answering...)

    cheers, clive

    (No axe to grind either way - I'm using OE/IE coz I like it, it works well enough and it doesn't
    give me grief. using 98 for work reasons - admittedly very crap and I'd rather be using one of the
    NT versions. And if somebody is tedious enough to want to try and expose a bug MS know about then
    that's their problem.).
     
  19. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 23:07:55 -0000, "Robert Peffers" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Na! The holes are only exposed due to every oik on the internet looking for them due to OE being
    >the most used mail/news client. If it was a little used programme they would not bother.

    The holes, though, were for the most part exposed years ago. If Microsoft had the wit or the
    inclination to fix them, they would have done so long ago. Sadly they don't.

    Which is why Outlook in all its forms is a steaming pile of ordure.

    Guy
    ===
    ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
    dynamic DNS permitting)
    NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
    work. Apologies.
     
  20. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 01:13:42 -0000, "Robert Peffers" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >You are not naive enough to think people could not write some kind of programme to crack any other
    >mail/news programme if they had enough incentive are you?

    No indeed - I know of at least two exploits which could theoretically be used against Lotus Notes
    mail clients. Both of which were fixed by Lotus in Release 5, several years ago.

    Guy
    ===
    ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
    dynamic DNS permitting)
    NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
    work. Apologies.
     
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