Cycle ride, Sun 02 March 2003: Glasgow - Falkirk Wheel (via Canal)



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"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 3 Mar 2003 16:45:23 -0000, "Tony W" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Hackers, virus writers and the like will always go for the weaknesses in
the
> >most widely used software.
>
> Up to a point, Lord Copper.

May I substitute a 'preferentially' as in 'will preferentially go ...'

T
 
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 0:23:15 +0000, GD <[email protected]> wrote:

>Actually, I think SoftWindows doesn't exist any more. The most common PC emulator on the Mac these
>days is Virtual PC; indeed, there's even a version for the PC! Virtual PC faces an interesting
>future as it's just been bought up by (wait for it) Microsoft.

Ooh, you're right. I've looked - I have VirtualPC. Can't imagine why I called it SoftWindows - post
in haste, repent at leaisure. All my Macs are at home :)

>> Most people never used it, or used it only infrequently. It was rather slow and something of a
>> memory hog (it had to run the Windows

>I've never used Softwindows but I do have Virtual PC (with Win98). To my mind, it has a respectable
>performance but I only use it on those rare occasions when I need something which is PC only.

I find it somewhat sluggish, but since my PC is a 1.8GHz Athlon that's not a big surprise.

>Of course, Word (I think) and Excel were first available on the Mac; I probably still have a copy
>of Excel 1.5 on a 400k floppy disk somewhere. And MS have a Macintosh Business Unit which has
>improved the quality of MS software for the Mac considerably since its slump in the mid-90s.

Agreed. ISTR that the first spreadhseets came out for Apple ][, but my memory is a tad hazy on that.

>The (non-design) organisation I worked for made my section get rid of its Macs by the simple
>expedient of not allowing us to connect to their network. Productivity, ease of use, lifetime cost
>etc - such considerations were de facto deemed to be irrelevant; the IT people knew they weren't
>PCs running Windows and that was enough for them. Suffice to say that, having used both Windows PCs
>and Macs extensively, I buy Apple when it comes to spending my own money.

Very common experience. I didn't get that from my network guys because I *was* the network guy :-D

>After all that, how did the cycle ride go?

Splendid :)
 
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 01:20:53 -0000, "Tony W" <[email protected]> wrote:

>May I substitute a 'preferentially' as in 'will preferentially go ...'

Doesn't change the fundamental point - IIS has relatively small market share but a huge attraction
for crackers / hackers because the default security is wrong and it is full of holes.
 
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 9:05:03 +0000, Just zis Guy, you know? wrote (in message
<[email protected]>):

> Agreed. ISTR that the first spreadhseets came out for Apple ][, but my memory is a tad hazy
> on that.

VisiCalc, the first killer app, usually credited with being the reason businesses adopted the
desktop computer. Its younger sibling, VisiTrend, handled the graphs and pie charts.

In the early days, the reason usually cited for getting a machine at home was to store recipes.

George

--
My email address is geod (at) dial dot pipex dot com You know what to do.
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]... snip
>
> Except that with Outhouse the act of previewing can load the malicious code.
>
> Guy
> ===
> ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
> dynamic DNS permitting)
> NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
> work. Apologies.

Frae Auld Bob Peffers: You just don't listed, do you? I said I run a programme that allows me to
preview, delete and bounce mail right on the server. I only download after doing that. I do not
download, HTML, attachments, pictures or sound, (unless I know who they come from).Then I am also
running a virus checker and firewall. It is thus all checked out before it gets to OE.

Anyone lulling themselves into a sense of false security by thinking their mail client is secure is
little better than a sitting duck. Sitting ducks get shot sooner rather than later.
--
Aefauldlie, (Scots for Sincerely),, Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers, Kelty, Fife. KY4 0HG. Scotland,
(UK). [email protected] (Remove specs to make reply).

*The Eck's Files*, Web Site is http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk/

---
Aa ootgannin mail free frae wee beasties.. Checked by AVG anti-virus system
(http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.456 / Virus Database: 256 - Release Date: 18/02/03
 
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:27:53 -0000, "Robert Peffers" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Except that with Outhouse the act of previewing can load the malicious code.

>You just don't listed, do you? I said I run a programme that allows me to preview, delete and
>bounce mail right on the server.

So you are not using Outhouse to check your mail. I have a program like that as well - SpamKiller.
But most people don't. Most people don't go to the effort of running a second layer of mail software
to bounce the ****. And Outhouse will execute malicious code on preview, so they are at risk.

I never said that you can't use Outhouse without getting a virus, merely that you are at
substantially increased risk if you do. Mainly because MS don't care. Melissa came out in, what?
1999? and the same fundamental flaw is still being exploited by new viruses.

>Anyone lulling themselves into a sense of false security by thinking their mail client is secure is
>little better than a sitting duck.

And the Microsoft ducks have targets painted on their backs where other ducks come fitted with
body armour.
 
[Traditional interleaved quoting: please read to end for all comments]

GD wrote in scot.general: about: Re: Cycle ride, Sun 02 March 2003: Glasgow - Falkirk Wheel
(via Canal)

> After all that, how did the cycle ride go?

err, yes, I'm *sorry* for inadvertently starting all this.. :-(

Actually, the big p*sser is that I don't know: I ended up spending Sunday morning trying to fix my
broken panniers, which I needed one of for the ride as I had leaflets to pass on to people, instead
(what I thought would be a 5 minute job (that I wasn't even expecting to have to do) taking over an
hour and then moving to 'infinite' as I discovered the nature of the problem.. :-( )

You can imagine I wasn't in the best of moods.. :-(

I hope the others enjoyed it, I'll be seeing some of them tonight, and can find out.. :)

--
David Marsh, <reply-to-email is valid at time of writing> | Glasgow, Scotland. [en, fr, (de)] |
http://web.viewport.co.uk/ | begin Learn usenet and netiquette: read news:news.announce.newusers |
>I scorefile posters who don't quote in traditional interspersed style<
 
"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:KQB*[email protected]...
> Robert Peffers <[email protected]> wrote:
> >"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>I notice you have quietly ignored the point about the GNKSA testing.
snip
>
> I don't see that this necessarily invalidates the assertion that anyone with any sense will ditch
> OE. You clearly are oblivious to the abominable security of OE.
> --
> David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
Frae Auld Bob Peffers: You, though, are jumping to conclusions without evidence. I use a programme
that allows me to preview, delete and bounce mail directly on the server. I do not download HTML,
attachments, sound or pictures in mail messages, (unless very sure of their source). I run a
firewall and virus checker and everything is checked before it gets as far as OE. Then all outgoing
posts are also checked before sending. I don't have a sense of false security either. Now if you
think, for a moment, that your system is so secure without such precautions I have to suggest it is
you who are a sitting duck waiting to be shot.
--
Aefauldlie, (Scots for Sincerely),, Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers, Kelty, Fife. KY4 0HG. Scotland,
(UK). [email protected] (Remove specs to make reply).

*The Eck's Files*, Web Site is http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk/

---
Aa ootgannin mail free frae wee beasties.. Checked by AVG anti-virus system
(http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.456 / Virus Database: 256 - Release Date: 18/02/03
 
Robert Peffers <[email protected]> wrote:
>"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>Robert Peffers <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>I notice you have quietly ignored the point about the GNKSA testing.

Thrice.

>>I don't see that this necessarily invalidates the assertion that anyone with any sense will ditch
>>OE. You clearly are oblivious to the abominable security of OE.
>You, though, are jumping to conclusions without evidence. I use a programme that allows me to
>preview, delete and bounce mail directly on the server. I do not download HTML, attachments, sound
>or pictures in mail messages, (unless very sure of their source). I run a firewall and virus
>checker and everything is checked before it gets as far as OE.

Perhaps it would be nice not to bother with all that?

[And I observe that none of that stops the "begin ..." trick that triggered this...]

>Then all outgoing posts are also checked before sending. I don't have a sense of false security
>either. Now if you think, for a moment, that your system is so secure without such precautions I
>have to suggest it is you who are a sitting duck waiting to be shot.

Am I, now? I wonder if you would care to name some of the historically successful attacks on Emacs
VM, my mail client of choice? Bonus points if you can name one that would send itself to all my
correspondents (you can't). This leaves you only with the pretence that the bad guys attack _only_
Microsoft's software, which any non-Windows sysadmin can tell you is arrant nonsense.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
 
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 11:27:53 -0000, "Robert Peffers" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Frae Auld Bob Peffers: You just don't listed, do you? I said I run a programme that allows me to
>preview, delete and bounce mail right on the server. I only download after doing that. I do not
>download, HTML, attachments, pictures or sound, (unless I know who they come from).Then I am also
>running a virus checker

<snip>

>Version: 6.0.456 / Virus Database: 256 - Release Date: 18/02/03

Keep the virus checker upto date then. Latest database is 258, IIRC.

Tim
--

fast and gripping, non pompous, glossy and credible.
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]... snip
> And the Microsoft ducks have targets painted on their backs where other ducks come fitted with
> body armour.
>
Frae Auld Bob Peffers: Let's lay that old myth to rest once and for all. The main motives of anyone
going to the bother of designing any kind of malicious programme is one of two main things. They
stand to make a profit from doing so by also designing protective software, making a name for
themselves, or they hold a grudge, real or imagined, against the computer using public.

In both cases they rely on surprise and hitting the most popular stuff so will attack when not
expected. If you use OE you already expect the attacks and take precautions. If you do not use OE,
and think yourself safe, beware.

Now that covers those who have the ability to design the malicious stuff. The script kiddies are
just vandals.
--
Aefauldlie, (Scots for Sincerely),, Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers, Kelty, Fife. KY4 0HG. Scotland,
(UK). [email protected] (Remove specs to make reply).

*The Eck's Files*, Web Site is http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk/

---
Aa ootgannin mail free frae wee beasties.. Checked by AVG anti-virus system
(http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.456 / Virus Database: 256 - Release Date: 18/02/03
 
"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Jtt*[email protected]... snip
> Am I, now? I wonder if you would care to name some of the historically successful attacks on Emacs
> VM, my mail client of choice? Bonus points if you can name one that would send itself to all my
> correspondents (you can't). This leaves you only with the pretence that the bad guys attack _only_
> Microsoft's software, which any non-Windows sysadmin can tell you is arrant nonsense.
> --
> David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?

Frae Auld Bob Peffers: Don't you guys ever listen? They attack the most popular programme and if it
was not OE it would be something else. Just ask yourself what is the motive for anyone attacking any
mail/news programme?

If you want to argue that Microsoft have produced flawed software then I would agree with you but
that is not what we are debating.

Would that motive go away if Microsoft went out of business tomorrow or would they just attack
whatever else became the most used programme? It does not matter what you personally use, if there
is enough incentive to break it, they will. I have several mail and news clients but I would not
dream of using any of them without other precautions.

Give a little thought as to the reason for anyone going to the bother of writing malicious
programmes and give us your thought on what these people would do if Microsoft had sorted their
programmes out. Do you think they would all go away or give up because it was too hard to break into
other software?
--
Aefauldlie, (Scots for Sincerely),, Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers, Kelty, Fife. KY4 0HG. Scotland,
(UK). [email protected] (Remove specs to make reply).

---
Aa ootgannin mail free frae wee beasties.. Checked by AVG anti-virus system
(http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.456 / Virus Database: 256 - Release Date: 18/02/03
 
Robert Peffers <[email protected]> wrote:
>"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message snip

Ignoring the point about GNKSA evaluations for the _fourth_ time!

>>Am I, now? I wonder if you would care to name some of the historically successful attacks on Emacs
>>VM, my mail client of choice? Bonus points if you can name one that would send itself to all my
>>correspondents (you can't). This leaves you only with the pretence that the bad guys attack _only_
>>Microsoft's software, which any non-Windows sysadmin can tell you is arrant nonsense.
>Don't you guys ever listen? They attack the most popular programme

The idea that they attack _only_ the most popular software remains arrant nonsense. People attack
Microsoft's IIS even though it is not the most popular Web server, do they not? SGI's Irix came in
for a lot of attention even though it is not the most popular UNIX let alone the most popular OS,
because of the awareness in the days before Irix 6 that it was an easy target (rather like OE).
Netscape's Web browser is still subjected to attacks.

Unfortunately, your whole "argument" hangs on the idea that the bad guys attack only the most widely
used software - an idea that is patently false.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
 
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 19:36:27 -0000, "Robert Peffers" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Don't you guys ever listen? They attack the most popular programme and if it was not OE it would be
>something else

Don't you ever listen? IIS is not the leader in web servers by a very long way and they still attack
it because, as with so much MS software, it is insecure by default and full of holes. Same with OE.
Insecure by default, and full of holes. The small subset of users who work out how to block all the
obnoxious and dangerous behaviours of OE therefore often conclude that it's better to use something
else which requires less effort to make it secure.

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
dynamic DNS permitting)
NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
work. Apologies.
 
On Tue, 4 Mar 2003 13:07:39 -0000, "Robert Peffers" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Let's lay that old myth to rest once and for all. The main motives of anyone going to the bother of
>designing any kind of malicious programme is one of two main things. They stand to make a profit
>from doing so by also designing protective software, making a name for themselves, or they hold a
>grudge, real or imagined, against the computer using public.

Or they do it for intellectual curiosity "because they can" - this is a strong motive among script
kiddies, reportedly.

>In both cases they rely on surprise and hitting the most popular stuff so will attack when not
>expected. If you use OE you already expect the attacks and take precautions. If you do not use OE,
>and think yourself safe, beware.

Is the wrong answer. IIS has a very small share of the worldwide http server market, but a
disproportionately large share of the hacked / cracked sites. The software has to be common *and*
easily exploitable. I remember one virus on the Macintosh, which was easily prevented with a simple
INIT. I have never seen a Linux virus. There is a huge body of programmers deeply committed to
Microsoft, many of whom hate Linux with a passion. They still haven't managed to come up with a
virus. Most exploits affecting open source software are established by the developer community,
disseminated immediately and patched rapidly - almost always before the baddies have managed to
exploit them. Microsoft get in a snit if anybody even mentions the existence of a security hole
before they've had a chance to patch it, which can take months.

Face it, Microsoft software is insecure by default. Some of it can be made secure, some can't, but
the root of the problem is that Microsoft don't take security half seriously enough at the design
stage (a fact which Bill Gates himself acknowledged last year). It is also bloated, and obscure. You
can't change some of the things you need to without hacking the registry, and Microsoft officially
don't support that (even when it's the only way and you're following their instructions). And you
can't load a server without the GUI! How **** is that?

Right, that's me off Usenet until Easter.

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
dynamic DNS permitting)
NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
work. Apologies.
 
Tony Raven wrote:
> Just zis Guy, you know? <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I have never seen a Linux virus.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1123827.stm (plus do a search on Linux on
> http://www.symantec.com for a list of Linux viruses, worms etc)
>
> "Experts have warned Linux users to expect growing numbers of attacks as the operating system
> grows in popularity."

I certainly know about worms etc. that affect Solaris, but despite that I've never actually had them
regularly sent to me by email.

However, the main point about UNIX/Linux setups is the basic culture of use is to protect the OS
from the users, while that isn't the case on Windows (even now it's actually *possible*, it isn't
encouraged). And while that continues to be so, Windows will suffer disproportionately from viruses
and other security snafus.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
> Tony Raven wrote:
>> Just zis Guy, you know? <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I have never seen a Linux virus.
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1123827.stm (plus do a search on Linux on
>> http://www.symantec.com for a list of Linux viruses, worms etc)
>>
>> "Experts have warned Linux users to expect growing numbers of attacks as the operating system
>> grows in popularity."
>
> I certainly know about worms etc. that affect Solaris, but despite that I've never actually had
> them regularly sent to me by email.
>

I get a fair volume of e-mail and ahem use Outhouse Depress and Outhouse (with Norton Virus and
Firewall which autoupdate). I only intercept a few viruses a year despite that and probably had more
of the manually transmitted "hoax" virus warnings than real viruses last year. So I'm not sure
volume is a good indicator of activity.

Tony
 
"Tony Raven" <[email protected]> writes:

> Just zis Guy, you know? <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > I have never seen a Linux virus.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1123827.stm (plus do a search on Linux on
> http://www.symantec.com for a list of Linux viruses...

Of which precisely none has ever successfully propagated in the wild...

> , worms etc)

Worms I'll grant you. However, even on worms, Linux' record is significantly better than Win NT.

> "Experts have warned Linux users to expect growing numbers of attacks as the operating system
> grows in popularity."

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they. Peddling panic is how less able security experts make
their living. Until you can point to a single instance of a Linux virus propagating successfully in
the wild I'm not going to get too stressed.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I shall continue to be an impossible person so long as those who are now possible remain
possible -- Michael Bakunin
 
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