Cycle Shoes

Michael MacClancy said:

Velvet said:

Quoted message said:

Velvet wrote:

>Unless you don't fancy the inevitable falling over
>during the learning process...

Quoted message said:

I'll use them when I'm ready for them, ta :-) I *want* to,
but I don't want to set myself more hurdles than I can
jump over.

Yes, and in the meantime you're suggesting to other
people that clipless pedals are a bigger problem than
they really are (for most people). There's nothing
inevitable about it.

So just why is it that I think there's a problem, that I
*will* fall off?

Is it, just maybe, because that's what I've seen here?

Is it the case that people actually *don't* fall off, that
the tales I hear HERE are, in fact, nothing more than just
that, tall tales with no fact?

NEVER have I said spds are bad and that they shouldn't be
used. I say 'inevitable' because that applies to me (and, I
have to say, seems to have been borne out by others that
post here).

I might point out that I'm NOT suggesting to OTHER people
that they are a bigger problem than they really are.
Someone expressed surprise that I was using cycling
specific shoes with no restraining mechanisms, and someone
else that any sort of distance being cycled and you might
as well put them on...

I then explained WHY I haven't, and pointed out that cycling
50 miles with cycling shoes on normal pedals isn't a
problem, with the intention that the OP would therefore
realise that there ARE benefits to cycling specific shoes,
without needing to actually fit the assosciated pedals, if
they didn't feel it was for them, at that point of time.

--

Velvet

Jon Senior said:

Velvet [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Yebbut I don't fancy that either ;-)

In around 7 years of riding clipless, I've only done it
twice. The only other time I nearly came off was when
taking a bike out for a test ride. My co-rider was just
getting used to clipless when he discovered that 1 of the
4 tension adjusters had been left at "normal". He nearly
wiped me out while desperately trying to unclip.

While I couldn't really recommend falling off it is such a
rarity that it's not worth worrying about. I'm sure that
this wont convince you anymore than all the others have
but really...

You use them on a turbo trainer? Loose bolts aside, how
often are you unable to unclip?

Jon

At the moment? nearly every time, and that's with them set
to their loosest (and yes, I've double and triple checked,
and they go from very hard to impossible, so I know I'm
going the right way with it).

There's absolutely no way I'd dare going out with the time
it takes me to unclip at the moment. They *are* the black
single-release cleats though, at some point I'll try the
silver multi ones.

Maybe I just have wimpy ankles, but even a good hard twist
doesn't always free them, and I certainly can't do both at
the same time - in fact, only one of them (and the wrong
one) tends to come free first or second time, the other one
I struggle with even more.

I have to put so much oomph behind it that there's no way
I'd be able to retain my balance on the bike while doing
this twisting.

So there you go, the reasons why clipless aren't for me
outdoors yet. Even on grass. I don't relish the bruises
I'd pick up even on grass from failing to unclip, or
unclipping and overbalancing, and ending up tangled in
bike lying on my side.

--

Velvet

Velvet [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

At the moment? nearly every time, and that's with them set
to their loosest (and yes, I've double and triple checked,
and they go from very hard to impossible, so I know I'm
going the right way with it).

There's absolutely no way I'd dare going out with the time
it takes me to unclip at the moment. They *are* the black
single-release cleats though, at some point I'll try the
silver multi ones.

Maybe I just have wimpy ankles, but even a good hard twist
doesn't always free them, and I certainly can't do both at
the same time - in fact, only one of them (and the wrong
one) tends to come free first or second time, the other
one I struggle with even more.

I have to put so much oomph behind it that there's no way
I'd be able to retain my balance on the bike while doing
this twisting.

So there you go, the reasons why clipless aren't for me
outdoors yet. Even on grass. I don't relish the bruises
I'd pick up even on grass from failing to unclip, or
unclipping and overbalancing, and ending up tangled in
bike lying on my side.

Now that sounds like a better reason. What are the pedals
(Model)? I find that the Shimano ones that I own have all
been fine at the default tension (About halfway I think!).
Have you had a chance to try any others?

Jon

"Ambrose Nankivell" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In "]news:[email hidden],
Velvet <[email hidden]> typed:

Quoted message said:

Yeah, I did that too. I'm now an expert at removing
cleats (without shoes) from spds pedals. Brute force
took care of removing the shoes from the cleats...
luckily the shoes survived.

Also luckily, this was all with the bike firmly on the
turbo!!

I found it was OK to do get them off once you'd removed
your feet, as you could now twist the shoes enough to
unclip them. Of course, the truly flexible could turn
their legs more than 90 degrees and not need to take their
shoes off.

A

Exactly the same experience last Sunday, out audaxing with
my sister, we stopped and helen couldn't unclip. She had new
shoes and the bolts weren't tight enough. Fortunately the
shoe came out of the pedal easily although we neaely lost a
bolt in the process.

Additionally I would add that I have fallen off with
clipless pedals (Time Atacs as I have a dodgy knee). The
scenario was simple, pedal up hill, decide to change to
inner chainring, chain comes off, fall onto verge.
Annoyingly I not only cut my knee on some stones but had a
hole in my tights to fix as well. Ho hum

Julia

Jon Senior said:

Velvet [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

At the moment? nearly every time, and that's with them set
to their loosest (and yes, I've double and triple checked,
and they go from very hard to impossible, so I know I'm
going the right way with it).

There's absolutely no way I'd dare going out with the time
it takes me to unclip at the moment. They *are* the black
single-release cleats though, at some point I'll try the
silver multi ones.

Maybe I just have wimpy ankles, but even a good hard twist
doesn't always free them, and I certainly can't do both at
the same time - in fact, only one of them (and the wrong
one) tends to come free first or second time, the other
one I struggle with even more.

I have to put so much oomph behind it that there's no way
I'd be able to retain my balance on the bike while doing
this twisting.

So there you go, the reasons why clipless aren't for me
outdoors yet. Even on grass. I don't relish the bruises
I'd pick up even on grass from failing to unclip, or
unclipping and overbalancing, and ending up tangled in
bike lying on my side.

Now that sounds like a better reason. What are the pedals
(Model)? I find that the Shimano ones that I own have all
been fine at the default tension (About halfway I think!).
Have you had a chance to try any others?

Jon

They're shimano M424s I think, from memory? they're double-
sided, with (removable, apparently) plastic/resin cage to
allow for use without cleats (not that I use them that way,
I have normal platform/cage types on).

The cleat-grabbing bits are the 'pop-up' type to be easier
to get into (no problems with that bit, though they are a
bit stiff to get into).

Not tried any others, I'd made the decision that I wanted
shoes I could walk in (so not Looks etc) and thus with
decent tread, and from there narrowed it down to Shimano,
the available women's shoes (I have narrow heels and didn't
want shoes slipping while I tried to get out), and then
looked at compatible pedals which I could have a removable
cage on (cage would stay on for a while till I was used to
it, then take off once I was completely happy about cycling
clipped in).

Love the shoes, but as I said, other skills take priority
over going clipless for the moment. Silver cleats might
solve the unclipping thing, I don't know, but that's a
bridge to cross when I come to it...

--

Velvet

Reply to Velvet

Quoted message said:

They're shimano M424s I think, from memory? they're double-
sided, with (removable, apparently) plastic/resin cage to
allow for use without cleats (not that I use them that
way, I have normal platform/cage types on).

I've got those pedals on my errands bike, and when I use my
SPD shoes, the cage interferes with the sole of the shoe
such that it can be a right pain to clip in and out. It
could be that if you tried SPD pedals *without* the cage
round them, you might find it much easier.

I'd suggest removing the resin cage; but I've never tried
it, and I don't know how.

--
Mark, UK. We hope to hear him swear, we love to hear him
squeak, We like to see him biting fingers in his horny beak.

in message <[email hidden]>, Velvet

(') said:

Michael MacClancy said:

Velvet said:

>Velvet wrote:
>
>>Unless you don't fancy the inevitable falling over
>>during the learning process...

Quoted message said:

I'll use them when I'm ready for them, ta :-) I *want*
to, but I don't want to set myself more hurdles than I
can jump over.

Yes, and in the meantime you're suggesting to other
people that clipless pedals are a bigger problem than
they really are (for most people). There's nothing
inevitable about it.

So just why is it that I think there's a problem, that I
*will* fall off?

Well, you know, pratfalls are just that. Good for a laugh,
rarely hurt. In the days when I used old fashioned cleated
shoes with toeclips and straps - so you *really* couldn't
get your foot out in a hurry - I went for thirteen years
before my first and only fall with them, and that came about
as a result of riding out onto a sandy beach.

Since switching to SPDs I've had exactly one SPD related
fall, when I stopped alongside a post, decided not to
unclip, reached out to lean on the post... and found it was
further away than I thought it was.

Both incidents were pure stupidity, both were at practically
zero speed, and in both cases no damage whatever was done
either to my bike or my skin.

Of course I fall off pretty regularly when riding off road.
And as both my hill bikes now have SPDs, that means I fall
off when I'm wearing SPDs. But these are not falls caused by
SPDs they're falls caused by misjudgement or by trying to do
things which are beyond my technical skill - or simply
fooling about.

Quoted message said:

Is it, just maybe, because that's what I've seen here?

Is it the case that people actually *don't* fall off, that
the tales I hear HERE are, in fact, nothing more than just
that, tall tales with no fact?

Well, one of the nicer things about this group is the way
people are prepared to own up to their own stupidities. And
probably sooner or later most people do get over-confident
and have a pratfall with their SPDs. And look stupid and get
laughed at. But the thing about this particular sort of fall
is that it *only* happens at zero mph. Which means two
things. First it means that you topple over reasonably
gently, sideways, which looks stupid but is highly unlikely
to actually hurt. And second it means that you are by
definition not in moving traffic (else why have you
stopped?) so it's most unlikely that anything is going to
squish you.

I do appreciate these things are scarey first time. And I
think the people who are sort of putting moral pressure on
you to use them are misguided. But I also think that you
could use them and that if you did use them you'd find that
you appreciated them.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)
jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

;; making jokes about dyslexia isn't big, it isn't
clever and ;; it isn't furry.

On Wed, 12 May 2004 23:35:03 GMT, Simon Brooke wrote:

snipped

Quoted message said:

I do appreciate these things are scarey first time. And I
think the people who are sort of putting moral pressure on
you to use them are misguided. But I also think that you
could use them and that if you did use them you'd find
that you appreciated them.

I think Simon's summed up the situation very well. I'm not
one of those putting pressure on Velvet to go clipless, what
she does is a matter for her. What I don't like is her
implication that the learning process involves lots of (my
inference, painful) falling over and the fact that this may
deter many people from doing something that will improve
their cycling pleasure.

--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "A modest little person,
with much to be modest about."- Winston Churchill
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk

Velvet said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Unless you don't fancy the inevitable falling over
>> during the learning process...

Michael MacC:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes, and in the meantime you're suggesting to other
people that clipless pedals are a bigger problem than
they really are (for most people). There's nothing
inevitable about it.

Quoted message said:

So just why is it that I think there's a problem, that I
*will* fall off?

Because many people seem to fall off once, after the
learning process is over, just as they are starting to find
them second nature and forget about them. This is
dramatically less common that it used to be in the days of
clips and straps, of course. I don't think it's universal; I
don't recall falling off when learning to ride clipless
(although I might be wrong), but I did fall over rather
spectacularly when attempting a scooting dismount while
wearing Looks.

Quoted message said:

Is it the case that people actually *don't* fall off, that
the tales I hear HERE are, in fact, nothing more than just
that, tall tales with no fact?

Mostly, yes. Falling off a bike is not a once-in-a-lifetime
event. Badly set drop kerbs on cyclepaths are a good way of
proving that, or big potholes, or clueless cagers on
roundabouts, or the occasional bail-out to avoid some twunt
who thinks it's OK to overtake when the vehicle coming the
other way is only a bike...

Quoted message said:

I might point out that I'm NOT suggesting to OTHER people
that they are a bigger problem than they really are.
Someone expressed surprise that I was using cycling
specific shoes with no restraining mechanisms, and someone
else that any sort of distance being cycled and you might
as well put them on...

Yes and no. My wife won't even use Zéfal toecups, which are
pretty benign. It's not compulsory, although it does seem to
improve efficiency.

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.ukOpen ↗

Victory is ours! Down with Eric the Half A Brain!

Velvet said:

True - but round here roads aren't quiet, or flat. I'm
getting closer to being able to manage it (little steps
at a time)

All you need is a few tens of meters. Slight downhill is
better as you can start freewheeling and avoid a pedal
induced shimmy, just roll along and get used to moving
with one hand on the bars only. Are there really no bits
of road (or playground, or field, or carpark) that don't
fit the bill? (And if not, go somewhere there is: if
you're cycling 50 milers that gives you a 20 mile radius
to find somewhere okay).

IME little steps at a time works best if you do a lot of
those little steps in a short time. Go back and forth
continually and you'll concentrate the practice and move on
much faster. I've had to do this sort of thing recently to
get to grips with the unicycle, and you just keep at it and
at it and at it and at it (aside to Guy if he's reading:
how's the unicycling going?).

<snip very sensible traffic procedures?

Quoted message said:

Then again, he did demonstrate that even cyclists used to
spds fall off with them the other weekend... ;-) So it's
not just you lot scaremongering about them that puts me
off trying them at this point in my learning-how-to-cycle-
again curve :-)

I've come off since I got used to them, freely admitted. But
then I've slid off on gravel long after I learned you slide
on gravel and so on. Most of us have fallen off a bike for
reasons that if we didn't dare repeat them, we'd never ride
at all. I've come to grief from having my feet fly off
platforms when I'd have been okay clipped in, and that's
potentially far scarier because you're doing more than 0 mph
when it happens...

Seems odd that you can't get out of them on the turbo though
(but a very sensible basis for not trying them on the road,
I must admit!). Are you trying to unclip at all points
around the pedal cycle? I can't think it's "wimpy ankles",
if they couldn't supply the force to undo a SPuD you
wouldn't be able to stand up! OTOH I've found that there are
various points around the circle where I just can't move
things far enough to unclip, but move my leg a little
further and it's no problem. Also note that you can move
your heel in as well as out to unclip, which helps
sometimes.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Velvet said:

Quoted message said:

You use them on a turbo trainer? Loose bolts aside, how
often are you unable to unclip?

Quoted message said:

At the moment? nearly every time, and that's with them set
to their loosest (and yes, I've double and triple checked,
and they go from very hard to impossible, so I know I'm
going the right way with it). [...] They *are* the black
single-release cleats though, at some point I'll try the
silver multi ones.

No difference, IME. I have used both, and now use entirely
the black ones because otherwise my feet tend to bounce out
of the pedals on the recumbent, but I don't find the release
action any different between the two.

Quoted message said:

Maybe I just have wimpy ankles, but even a good hard twist
doesn't always free them, and I certainly can't do both at
the same time - in fact, only one of them (and the wrong
one) tends to come free first or second time, the other
one I struggle with even more.

That sounds wrong. Have you tried oiling the pedals and
putting a small amount of wax or grease on the cleats?

And are you sure the tension really is at the low end? With
the tension backed off I find the cleats release so easily
as to make riding a challenge.

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. chapmancentral.co.ukchapmancentral.co.ukOpen ↗

Victory is ours! Down with Eric the Half A Brain!

Peter Clinch said:

Roos learned to use them on Real Roads while also learning
to ride a 'bent /and/ using my SPuD sandals which were size
too big, and she didn't keel over during the process (or
since, I think).

I did fall off once...I think. In the dark, coming up the
steep potholed bit at the bottom of Hazel Avenue, slightly
intoxicated, in the wrong gear, not used to the 'bent yet,
ran out of speed, and suddenly I sat on my side. Nobody and
nothing got hurt (you don't fall that far on a 'bent
🙂

It also helps if you're not particularly concerned about
scrapes and bruises :-)

Roos

Velvet said:

There's absolutely no way I'd dare going out with the time
it takes me to unclip at the moment. They *are* the black
single-release cleats though, at some point I'll try the
silver multi ones.

Maybe I just have wimpy ankles, but even a good hard twist
doesn't always free them, and I certainly can't do both at
the same time - in fact, only one of them (and the wrong
one) tends to come free first or second time, the other
one I struggle with even more.

I have to put so much oomph behind it that there's no way
I'd be able to retain my balance on the bike while doing
this twisting.

What position have you got the pedals in when you try to
release? And why do you want to do both at the same time?

When I started I got a sore ankle the first day. Since then
no problem. I do lubricate my (Look) pedals regularly.
--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "His mother should have
thrown him away and kept the stork." - Mae West
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk

Velvet:

Quoted message said:

Is it the case that people actually *don't* fall off

Apparently, some people manage not to. I'm not one of them.

Quoted message said:

the tales I hear HERE are, in fact, nothing more than just that, tall tales with no fact?

The facts in my case are these: I've had just one "proper" fall - a majestic sideways topple where I fully hit the ground before my feet came unclipped, and I've had several partial falls, where I've managed to get a foot down before losing it completely. But falling is not something that would put me off using clipless - even the "proper" fall didn't damage anything except my pride - I actually found it quite funny (great slapstick moment - if someone had filmed it, I'd be sending the video off to You've Been Framed).

Quoted message said:

I then explained WHY I haven't, and pointed out that cycling 50 miles with cycling shoes on normal pedals isn't a

problem

You've obviously given the matter plenty of thought and it's clear that your fears aren't based on ignorance, but I'm sure everyone is taking that into account in their comments - which are all well-meant - and I'm sure that everyone is respectful of the fact that it's entirely your decision.

d.

Roos Eisma said:

Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Roos learned to use them on Real Roads while also learning
to ride a 'bent /and/ using my SPuD sandals which were
size too big, and she didn't keel over during the process
(or since, I think).

Quoted message said:

I did fall off once...I think. In the dark, coming up the
steep potholed bit at the bottom of Hazel Avenue

Objection! Hazel Avenue isn't a Real Road! ;-)

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Michael MacClancy said:

Velvet said:

There's absolutely no way I'd dare going out with the
time it takes me to unclip at the moment. They *are* the
black single-release cleats though, at some point I'll
try the silver multi ones.

Maybe I just have wimpy ankles, but even a good hard
twist doesn't always free them, and I certainly can't do
both at the same time - in fact, only one of them (and
the wrong one) tends to come free first or second time,
the other one I struggle with even more.

I have to put so much oomph behind it that there's no way
I'd be able to retain my balance on the bike while doing
this twisting.

What position have you got the pedals in when you try to
release? And why do you want to do both at the same time?

Indeed. During normal riding I think I only ever release my
left cleat. If I have to leave or walk the bike then I
release my right foot once the bike is stationary and my
left foot is on the ground.

Colin

Just zis Guy said:

That sounds wrong. Have you tried oiling the pedals and
putting a small amount of wax or grease on the cleats?

And are you sure the tension really is at the low end?
With the tension backed off I find the cleats release so
easily as to make riding a challenge.

Yes, they're definitely at the low end, cos if I crank
them up to the other end, they're bloody hard to get in,
and impossible to get out of without spending several
minutes trying.

No, I've not oiled or greased anything, I wasn't aware this
was something good to do.

--

Velvet

Michael MacClancy said:

Quoted message said:

What position have you got the pedals in when you try to
release? And why do you want to do both at the same time?

When I started I got a sore ankle the first day. Since
then no problem. I do lubricate my (Look) pedals
regularly.

It's been a while since they've been on, but if I remember
right I've tried at about 3 o'clock and 6 o'clock with the
pedals stationary and neither worked. I have to say I'm
slightly perturbed by the thought that they might unclip
reliably in only one or two places in the pedal stroke?!

I don't necessarily want to do both at the same time, but I
want them both unclipped well before I stop. And thus if I
stop suddenly, yes I will require both to unclip at the same
time. Clipping back in is easy enough, but I'm not all that
happy that I can manage to reliably set down my left foot
(the only one that *works* to set down when stopping, for
me) every single time, and have had one incident with very
loose toestraps where the bike decided to go the other way
and I suddenly needed to put my *right* foot down. Very
unpleasant, I spent the rest of the ride a bag of nerves
from that, and stopping wasn't confident again for quite a
while after that.

--

Velvet

Peter Clinch said:

All you need is a few tens of meters. Slight downhill is
better as you can start freewheeling and avoid a pedal
induced shimmy, just roll along and get used to moving
with one hand on the bars only. Are there really no bits
of road (or playground, or field, or carpark) that don't
fit the bill? (And if not, go somewhere there is: if
you're cycling 50 milers that gives you a 20 mile radius
to find somewhere okay).

Yep, I can't think of anywhere around here that's flat (it's
all hills and valleys, the car parks are generally 24/7
places, and after dark contain a different hazard - that of
the boy racer), what's flat tends to be busy. I cycle miles
like that on mostly empty country roads, which don't exist
near me, and involve dragging the bike through the centre of
london on trains, currently. I really dislike cycling on the
roads near me, they're full of car drivers who rarely see
cyclists, and I'm not the sort of cyclist they should be
learning how to behave around on.

I'm making progress slowly on signalling, but it is slow. I
used to be able to do it so I'll manage it again, but this
bike is a lot different in position/handling which is
probably why it's taking longer. It's much twitchier, I have
more weight on the bars from the position, etc.

I'm starting to think this thread has rambled on rather now
;-) I'll get there in the end, and one day I'll get those
clipless things on too.

--

Velvet

Velvet said:

Michael MacClancy wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What position have you got the pedals in when you try to
release? And why do you want to do both at the same time?

When I started I got a sore ankle the first day. Since
then no problem. I do lubricate my (Look) pedals
regularly.

It's been a while since they've been on, but if I remember
right I've tried at about 3 o'clock and 6 o'clock with the
pedals stationary and neither worked. I have to say I'm
slightly perturbed by the thought that they might unclip
reliably in only one or two places in the pedal stroke?!

I don't necessarily want to do both at the same time, but
I want them both unclipped well before I stop. And thus if
I stop suddenly, yes I will require both to unclip at the
same time.

I'm sure that most people only unclip one when stopping,
usually the less dominant leg. You're causing yourself
problems if you're trying to do both at the same time. I'm
sure I've read that it's best to have the foot you want to
release at the bottom of the stroke but I find it's easier
to have it at the top.

Perhaps you shouldn't be bothering with clipless at the
moment. You seem to have enough problems with other, much
more fundamental, skills. For instance, I think you really
do need to learn to put down just one foot (and always the
same foot) whenever you stop. I simply can't remember when I
have ever put down the 'other' foot - in 30 years or more of
cycling on bikes with and without clipless pedals.
--
Michael MacClancy Random putdown - "He has no enemies, but
is intensely disliked by his friends." -Oscar Wilde
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk www.macclancy.co.uk