Cycle Speed Limits on a normal Cycle Path?

[Alan Braggins]

In article <[email protected]>, Paul Boyd wrote:
>Alan Braggins said the following on 08/02/2007 12:14:
>
>> What rubbish. We have a rough sense of how much our ability has been
>> impaired by alcohol
>
>No we don't, which is why people under-estimate how drunk they are.

What part of "rough" and "a sense which can itself be impaired by alcohol"
didn't you understand?


>What we do have is the ability to count, so 1 pint is OK, but 5 pints
>isn't.

That's hardly "built-in alcohol measuring devices", is it?

 

[Alan Braggins]

In article <[email protected]>, Phil Cook wrote:
>Alan Braggins wrote:
>>In article <[email protected]>, Tom Crispin wrote:
>>>
>>>My comments had nothing (probably) to do with me not getting the job.
>>>The clincher was my answer to the question, "If we offered you this
>>>job, would you accept it?" Which begged the follow up question, "Why
>>>the f*&$ did you bother applying in the first place?"
>>
>>So (taking the '"beg the question" doesn't mean that/yes it does now language
>>changes over time' argument as read), why _did_ you bother applying in the
>>first place?
>
>Well I can think of job interviews where I have decided "I don't want
>to work with these people" so Tom may have wanted the job before he
>knew what king of people the head and govenors were.

"It wasn't clear what the job and/or pay being offered was until the
interview" is another possibility (I've been there). But I'm still
curious to know Tom's answer.

 

[Paul Boyd]

Andy Leighton said the following on 08/02/2007 14:49:

> I doubt a limit of 0 would be very enforceable and certainly wouldn't
> have the support of the public.

Tell you what, how about finding out how they enforce it in Estonia,
Lithuania, Malta, Romania, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Hungary, or certain
states in the USA where under-21s have a zero limit?

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

 

[bobrayner]

On 7 Feb, 17:24, David Hansen <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 7 Feb 2007 08:17:15 -0800 someone who may be
> [email protected] wrote this:-
>
> >Are there any speed-limits for a standard cycle?
>
> Not on public roads, where speed limits only apply to motor
> vehicles.

Really?

"Where a traffic sign ... has been lawfully placed on or near a road,
a person driving or propelling a vehicle who fails to comply with the
indication given by the sign is guilty of an offence."
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1988/Ukpga_19880052_en_2.htm#mdiv36

Is a bicycle not a vehicle?

 

[Tony Raven]

bobrayner wrote on 08/02/2007 15:40 +0100:
> On 7 Feb, 17:24, David Hansen <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 7 Feb 2007 08:17:15 -0800 someone who may be
>> [email protected] wrote this:-
>>
>>> Are there any speed-limits for a standard cycle?
>> Not on public roads, where speed limits only apply to motor
>> vehicles.
>
> Really?
>
> "Where a traffic sign ... has been lawfully placed on or near a road,
> a person driving or propelling a vehicle who fails to comply with the
> indication given by the sign is guilty of an offence."
> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1988/Ukpga_19880052_en_2.htm#mdiv36
>
> Is a bicycle not a vehicle?
>

But what is the "30" sign indicating? If you read the legislation it is
to inform the drivers of motor vehicles that there is a 30mph speed
limit for motor vehicles on that road. Ditto for other speed limit
signs. So unless your bicycle is a motor vehicle there is no indication
for you to comply with. Simple really.

--
Tony

"...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
wildly inaccurate..."
Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

 

[Will Cove]

Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote in news:530vh5F1njesaU1
@mid.individual.net:

> But what is the "30" sign indicating? If you read the legislation it is
> to inform the drivers of motor vehicles that there is a 30mph speed
> limit for motor vehicles on that road. Ditto for other speed limit
> signs. So unless your bicycle is a motor vehicle there is no indication
> for you to comply with. Simple really.

Er, no. Not AFAICT. TSRGD 2002 Part I, Section 5, subsection (1):

5. - (1) In these Regulations "speed limit" means a maximum or minimum
limit of speed on the driving of vehicles on a road -
(followed by references to traffic orders etc. that must exist for the
limit to be valid.)

Note the absence of the word "motor" before the word "vehicle". Note also
that RTA 1988 refers to drivers of motorcycles, which suggests that cycles
are also "driven" for the purposes of the legislation.

So, if a bicycle is a vehicle for the purposes of TSRGD 2002 and RTA 1988,
speed limits do apply to cyclists. That said I can't find a definition of
the term "vehicle" in either Act except for implict definitions such as the
rules for cycle lanes, which include "used by vehicles other than pedal
cycles", so implying that the term "vehicle" includes pedal cycles.

 

[Clive George]

"Will Cove" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote in news:530vh5F1njesaU1
> @mid.individual.net:
>
>> But what is the "30" sign indicating? If you read the legislation it is
>> to inform the drivers of motor vehicles that there is a 30mph speed
>> limit for motor vehicles on that road. Ditto for other speed limit
>> signs. So unless your bicycle is a motor vehicle there is no indication
>> for you to comply with. Simple really.
>
> Er, no. Not AFAICT. TSRGD 2002 Part I, Section 5, subsection (1):
(etc)

Do you know how many times this one has been argued here? I expect somebody
with more knowledge of the detail will correct you soon enough, but it's
always interesting to see people making the same mistake again and again -
and with such confidence

cheers,
clive

 

[Daniel Barlow]

Will Cove wrote:
> Er, no. Not AFAICT. TSRGD 2002 Part I, Section 5, subsection (1):
>
> 5. - (1) In these Regulations "speed limit" means a maximum or minimum
> limit of speed on the driving of vehicles on a road -
> (followed by references to traffic orders etc. that must exist for the
> limit to be valid.)

So go and look at the traffic orders it refers to and what do you find?
From memory, most speed limits on public roads are enforced under the
Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, and the relevant provisions of that
Act apply only to motor vehicles.

ICBW, ad it might have changed, but I'd be surprised if so.


-dan

--
http://www.coruskate.net/

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>,
bobrayner ('[email protected]') wrote:

> On 7 Feb, 17:24, David Hansen <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 7 Feb 2007 08:17:15 -0800 someone who may be
>> [email protected] wrote this:-
>>
>> >Are there any speed-limits for a standard cycle?
>>
>> Not on public roads, where speed limits only apply to motor
>> vehicles.
>
> Really?
>
> "Where a traffic sign ... has been lawfully placed on or near a road,
> a person driving or propelling a vehicle who fails to comply with the
> indication given by the sign is guilty of an offence."
> http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1988/Ukpga_19880052_en_2.htm#mdiv36
>
> Is a bicycle not a vehicle?

No, incompetent draftsmanship of the act. There is no offence for the
person propelling a pedal cycle to be guilty of, and this act does not
create such an offence. So it's just wrong.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
,/| _.--''^``-...___.._.,;
/, \'. _-' ,--,,,--'''
{ \ `_-'' ' /
`;;' ; ; ;
._..--'' ._,,, _..' .;.'
(,_....----''' (,..--''

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Paul Boyd
('usenet.dont.work@plusnet') wrote:

> Anthony Jones said the following on 08/02/2007 09:21:
>
>> Are you suggesting that a typical person can more accurately estimate
>> their blood alcohol level than their speed? Excluding the case when
>> they've consumed no alcohol (but then see below), I'd disagree.
>
> No, which I don't think is what I said. As I said in another post just
> now, the average person can tell the difference between drinking one
> pint and five pints, even if they have no idea what how many mg of blood
> are in their alcohol stream. If you've drunk one pint you can legally
> drive, if you've drunk five pints you can't.

If I've drunk one pint of beer I most certainly cannot legally drive - I
might pass a breath test, but I cannot control a vehicle safely. Mind you,
the difference between me and most of the rest of the population is that I
know this.

> Simple as that - the
> "measuring device" could be the fingers. I'm not sure exactly where the
> limits are because I work on a zero limit (polishes halo!!),

Absolutely. There is no other safe limit.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Andy Leighton
('[email protected]') wrote:

> On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:33:57 +0000,
> Paul Boyd <usenet.dont.work@plusnet> wrote:
>> Anthony Jones said the following on 08/02/2007 13:28:
>
>>> I think you underestimate the variability with respect to blood alcohol
>>> levels. Under some circumstances one pint could put someone over the
>>> limit (small woman drinking strong beer on an empty stomach), and under
>>> others five pints could leave someone under the limit (stereotypical
>>> rugby player drinking weak beer on a full stomach). It's not a simple
>>> as 'counting units' at all.
>>
>> Which is precisely why the limit should be zero - there can be no doubt
>> then.
>
> Yep all those people who have recently used an alcohol based mouthwash,
> those who have eaten a bit of sherry trifle, and those who experience
> endogenous fermentation would fail a breath test.

It isn't about passing a breath test. It's about being safe to drive.

> As driving whilst tired can be as dangerous as driving under the
> influence (driving after 18 hours with no sleep is equivalent to
> 50mg/100ml blood according to some studies) are you as tolerant on
> that? How tired is too tired?

IME a ten-hour day at work on a new project is too tired. I broke my back
after such a day through driving when too fatigued, and I'm quite lucky I
didn't injure anyone else.

> I doubt a limit of 0 would be very enforceable and certainly wouldn't
> have the support of the public. A reduction to 50mg/100ml which is the
> usual limit for western Europe would have the broad support of the
> public I feel (although not everyone).

So it's not worth doing anything three thousand people killed on the roads
every year, but it's worth invading two foreign countries and destroying
our foreign policy relationships with a third of the world in response to
27 people killed in the underground just once? That is a bizarre set of
values you've got there.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; single speed mountain bikes: for people who cycle on flat mountains.

 

[James Thomson]

"Roger Thorpe" <[email protected]> a écrit:

> Fascinating! that french bike seems to follow the Citroen design
> philosophy of clever-but-complicated weirdness.

In many aspects, yes - but the front brake looks extraordinarily well
thought out and sturdy compared with its contemporaries. Look at the
sliding cable stop on the brake straddle rod, with the single coil spring
behind:

http://www.reneherse.com/images/DSC_00333.JPG

All milled from steel rod, hand-brazed, and chrome plated!

I haven't found much information about Schulz. This comes from the French
text of Jan Heine's recent book "The Golden Age of Handbuilt Bicycles" (I
don't own a copy):


Schultz fut un inventeur prolifique : hors ce cadre au dessin étonnant,
il inventa des freins très puissants et un dérailleur indexé nommé le
"Funiculo". Les jantes légères de ce vélo sont en feuilles d’aluminium
pliées et rivetées sur leur axe central. ... Avec autant de pièces
"spéciales" réalisées à la main, les bicyclettes Schultz étaient chères,
il s’en construisit donc très peu.

Schulz was a prolific inventor: beside this astonishing frame design,
he invented very powerful brakes, and an indexed derailleur caled the
"Funiculo". The light rims of this bicycle are made from folded sheet
aluminium, riveted along the central axis. With so many specialised
hand-made parts, Schulz bicycles were expensive and therefore
very few were made.


I presume the text refers to this same bicycle (dated 1935-37).

You can see the indexing positions in the gear lever:

http://www.reneherse.com/images/DSC_00322.JPG

and the riveted rims:

http://www.reneherse.com/images/DSC_0034.JPG

But that rear brake is still a puzzle:

http://www.reneherse.com/images/DSC_0034.JPG

http://www.reneherse.com/images/DSC_00443.JPG

James Thomson

 

[GeoffC]

Roger Merriman <[email protected]> wrote:
> noticed posties on the bikes round here (hampton) very quaite heh. way
> way too hilly and to honest you'd never fit 100KG+ mail on to a bike,
> might get the weight i guess but that is a lot of bags...
>

One of these perhaps?

http://cockie.org/postbodefiets.jpg

--

Geoff

 

[[email protected]]

On 7 Feb, 16:17, [email protected] wrote:
> Are there any speed-limits for a standard cycle?

ISTR reading somewhere that if you are riding at 18mph or more you
should be on a road, rather than a cycle path. That strikes me as
fairly reasonable.

Does this help with the question... the thread seems to have
frayed

Cheers,
W.

 

[Will Cove]

Daniel Barlow <[email protected]> wrote in news:1170953470.1601.0
@proxy02.news.clara.net:

> So go and look at the traffic orders it refers to and what do you find?
> From memory, most speed limits on public roads are enforced under the
> Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, and the relevant provisions of that
> Act apply only to motor vehicles.
>
> ICBW, ad it might have changed, but I'd be surprised if so.

Although most orders are indeed made under the 1984 Act, TSRGD 2002 allows
for speed limits to be imposed by local Act - and those can apply to pedal
cycles.

FWIW, I've seen claims that the 1984 Act excludes pedal cycles, but since
I've never had access to the full text I don't know for sure. Does anyone
know of the full text of RTA 1984 on the 'net?

 

[GeoffC]

Paul Boyd <usenet.dont.work@plusnet> wrote:
> Buck said the following on 08/02/2007 10:38:
>
>> I had the old "don't shout at me what's wrong with your bell?" line
>> from a ped the
>> other day, I said "I rang it three times but you ignored it", "oh"
>> was the reply.
>
> Oh yes - I've had that, and my bell is hardly the quietest on the
> block.

IME a soft "ding" type bell is often more agreeable than the loud strident
sort. Often more effective too as the ped will often turn around to see WTF
that funny noise was.

--

Geoff

 

[GeoffC]

Mark Thompson
<pleasegivegenerously@warmmail*_turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com> wrote:
>> If I am walking along a cycle path I would
>> rather be warned by a gentle "ding " than surprised by the slipstream
>> of a passing bike.
>
> 'Surprised by the slipstream of a passing bike' might imply that
> you're going a little fast or close for their comfort.

You need to go fast so that by the time they react you are already long
past, otherwise you might get a flailing arm in the face.

--

Geoff

 

[Will Cove]

"Clive George" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Do you know how many times this one has been argued here? I expect
> somebody with more knowledge of the detail will correct you soon
> enough, but it's always interesting to see people making the same
> mistake again and again - and with such confidence

Yep, I do know how many times it's been argued and I have yet to see
something that explicitly and globally excludes bicycles from speed limits.
As Daniel Barlow wrote, the individual traffic order might apply only to
motor vehicles - but you'd need sight of each and every traffic order that
imposed a speed limit on every road on which you ride to be sure that
you're never subject to a speed limit.

Although most orders are indeed made under the Road Traffic Act 1984, which
allegedly excludes pedal cycles, TSRGD 2002 allows for speed limits that
apply to pedal cycles to be imposed by local Acts.

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, James
Thomson ('[email protected]') wrote:

> "Roger Thorpe" <[email protected]> a écrit:
>
>> Fascinating! that french bike seems to follow the Citroen design
>> philosophy of clever-but-complicated weirdness.
>
> In many aspects, yes - but the front brake looks extraordinarily well
> thought out and sturdy compared with its contemporaries. Look at the
> sliding cable stop on the brake straddle rod, with the single coil spring
> behind:
>
> http://www.reneherse.com/images/DSC_00333.JPG
>
> All milled from steel rod, hand-brazed, and chrome plated!
>
> I haven't found much information about Schulz. This comes from the French
> text of Jan Heine's recent book "The Golden Age of Handbuilt Bicycles" (I
> don't own a copy):
>
> Schulz was a prolific inventor: beside this astonishing frame design,
> he invented very powerful brakes, and an indexed derailleur caled the
> "Funiculo". The light rims of this bicycle are made from folded sheet
> aluminium, riveted along the central axis. With so many specialised
> hand-made parts, Schulz bicycles were expensive and therefore
> very few were made.
>
> I presume the text refers to this same bicycle (dated 1935-37).

The 1952 model is also very impressive.
http://www.reneherse.com/RHchrome.html

Look at this detail, to protect the rear brakes from the panniers:
http://www.reneherse.com/images/DSCN0010.JPG

Lovely detail in these pictures
http://www.reneherse.com/images/DSCN00302.JPG


--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; ... exposing the violence incoherent in the system...

 

[Roger Burton West]

GeoffC wrote:

>IME a soft "ding" type bell is often more agreeable than the loud strident
>sort. Often more effective too as the ped will often turn around to see WTF
>that funny noise was.

I've found that "'Scuse me!" said in a loud _friendly_ voice is the best
bet - pedestrians expect people to hail them, so they don't freeze or
panic the way a lot of them do when they hear a cycle bell.

It's also more friendly in general - a bike bell is much like a car
hooter in that it only sends one message, which is "there is a bicycle
somewhere within a few hunded yards". Calling out instead of ringing the
bell lets me interact as a _person_ rather then as a vehicle operator.

R