Cycle to welcome congestion charge?

[Stephen \]

"Tony W" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "Stephen (aka steford)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > Yes one of Ken's concerns when he was planning this is that it forces
poor
> > people off the roads which is why he wanted to charge small cars less
but
> > this was a practical impossibility apparently. Even if it only raises
> money
> > for transport it'll be good. Hopefully the charge will be increased to
£10
> > (or more for larger cars if it becomes possible, 1 occupant etc) and
> traffic
> > will get less. It also ought to be more inconvenient to drive in London
in
> > general I think with more pedestrian zones, cycle paths, no car
days/times
> > etc. I'm sure for the 1st few weeks of the charge it'll be a nightmare around the zone with
> > those bailing out at the last second.
>
>
> Where, pray, is the problem in charging by size? The system identifies number plates. Number
> plates are issued to individual cars and DVLA obviously know a Roller from a Reliant Robin.
>
> If extracting the information from DVLA is considered an infringement of human rights (and Ken
> must be intending to contact DVLA for those who have not paid) then drivers can be asked what type
> of car they are driving when they phone up to pay. False declaration is fraud -- at which time the
> fraudster gives up certain rights and privileges by committing a crime. A random check would act
> as a deterrent for the fraudsters.
>
> Simple -- another few lines of code & its done.
>
> T
>
I emailed Ken to tell him exactly that after hearing him say it was an imposibility on newsnight I
think it was. All I can think of is it is either a data problem (ie the data is not there although I
think it is) or a privacy problem (ie maybe only police are allowed to look up types/size of cars).

 

[-Lsqnot Respond]

On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 20:05:55 -0000, "Danny Colyer" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Tony W wondered:
>> Where, pray, is the problem in charging by size? The system identifies number plates. Number
>> plates are issued to individual cars and DVLA obviously know a Roller from a Reliant Robin.
>
>I think you'd end up with something similar to the situation in Athens (IIRC), where cars with odd
>numbered plates and cars with even numbered plates are let in on alternate days. Those who can
>afford it simply own two cars, and drive in every day.
>
>In London, those who could afford it would simply buy a second car, small enough for lower
>congestion charges. I suppose that wouldn't be entirely a bad thing, though I have an image of
>parking problems just outside the charging zones, where people drive their Jags to the edge of the
>zone, then get in the Fiesta to go the rest of the way.

I used to be convinced that congestion charging was a Bad Thing; an inequitable, socially devisive
policy that would result in roads cleared of lesser traffic allowing people in Mercedes to cruise to
their destination.

However, I had a long journey to do on Boxing Day last year and found the roads empty of all but
myself. I realised what a Good Thing congestion charging is : an inequitable, socially devisive
policy that would result in roads cleared of lesser traffic allowing people in Mercedes to cruise to
their destination.

More seriously, I'm not against charging but I'm not 100% convinced either. On balance, I think I'm
happier with congestion; if you choose to drive, you suffer delays and have a miserable journey.
Simple. Combined with higher fuel duties you'll pay as well. Bingo! Add decent PT (no need to spend
public money; just reallocate roadspace for starters) and *quality* bike facilities (nb not yet
available in the UK) and you've got a decent transport policy.

You could even build something useful on the car park wildernesses that fill our town centres.

 

[Eatmorepies]

> I think you'd end up with something similar to the situation in Athens (IIRC), where cars with odd
> numbered plates and cars with even numbered plates are let in on alternate days. Those who can
> afford it simply own two cars, and drive in every day.
>

The odd/even system would surely solve the problem without any expensive tax collecting system. The
percentage of people that could afford to run a second car must be quite low (10%?). It would force
people to car share (with real people).

Someone made the point that car drivers have already paid for the roads and will feel miffed at
being charged again - I agree; and Ken needs to remember that the bulk of the electorate are car
drivers. Will we see a Conservative candidate with a car friendly manifesto?

John

 

[Tony W]

"Danny Colyer" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

>
> In London, those who could afford it would simply buy a second car, small enough for lower
> congestion charges. I suppose that wouldn't be entirely a bad thing, though I have an image of
> parking problems just outside the charging zones, where people drive their Jags to the edge of the
> zone, then get in the Fiesta to go the rest of the way.

There is, apparently, evidence of something similar. Sales of scooters, and 'green' cars
(LPG/electric etc.) are booming in London.

T

 

[Ambrose Nankive]

"Danny Colyer" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Tony W wondered:
> > Where, pray, is the problem in charging by size? The system identifies number plates. Number
> > plates are issued to individual cars and DVLA obviously know a Roller from a Reliant Robin.
>
> I think you'd end up with something similar to the situation in Athens (IIRC), where cars with odd
> numbered plates and cars with even numbered plates are let in on alternate days. Those who can
> afford it simply own two cars, and drive in every day.
>
Well, what would be the problem with the less rich being able to pay a discounted charge: You'd need
to apply for it, but after that, you would show the ID when buying your ticket (that's how it works,
isn't it?) and would only have to pay a quid or £2.50 or something. After all, they can check
eligibility easily enough: IIRC (from Newsnight on Monday), the number plate database is already up
and running.

 

[-Lsqnot Respond]

On 14 Jan 2003 20:37:21 GMT, "Eatmorepies" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Someone made the point that car drivers have already paid for the roads and will feel miffed at
>being charged again - I agree; and Ken needs to remember that the bulk of the electorate are car
>drivers. Will we see a Conservative candidate with a car friendly manifesto?
>
>John

Hmm. Nationally and out in the sticks, yes. Not so sure if the majority of London residents are car
drivers. Nationally, 1/3 of households do not have a car (probably an out of date figure, I admit)
and London has particularly low levels of car ownership because
1. Congestion is so bad.
2. PT is so good. (relatively)
3. It's an old fashioned, dense city with short distances.

 

[W K]

"Eatmorepies" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> The odd/even system would surely solve the problem without any expensive
tax
> collecting system. The percentage of people that could afford to run a second car must be quite
> low (10%?).

Err... I've got a car that cost £0, insurance £300, tax £105. Relative to many other things, thats
not much is it? OTOH what if you are a two car household where one person doesn't go into the zone -
just swap cars every day.

Finally - Ken - even if it doesn't really work or is just so so, he deserves a lot of praise - how
many other politicians are quite so willing to put their **** on the block.

 

[Stephen \]

"Eatmorepies" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> > I think you'd end up with something similar to the situation in Athens (IIRC), where cars with
> > odd numbered plates and cars with even numbered plates are let in on alternate days. Those who
> > can afford it simply own two cars, and drive in every day.
> >
>
> The odd/even system would surely solve the problem without any expensive
tax
> collecting system. The percentage of people that could afford to run a second car must be quite
> low (10%?). It would force people to car share (with real people).
>
> Someone made the point that car drivers have already paid for the roads
and
> will feel miffed at being charged again - I agree; and Ken needs to
remember
> that the bulk of the electorate are car drivers. Will we see a
Conservative
> candidate with a car friendly manifesto?
>
> John
>
Note quite right as the majority of Londoners do not drive in to the central zone, they want a
better public transport system which this should help pay for and the charge isn't for roads - it's
to prevent congestion/pollution. I think the majority of Londoners in the central zone think that
people in cars there are idiots.

 

[Stephen \]

"Ambrose Nankivell" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "Danny Colyer" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > Tony W wondered:
> > > Where, pray, is the problem in charging by size? The system identifies number plates. Number
> > > plates are issued to individual cars and DVLA obviously know a Roller from a Reliant Robin.
> >
> > I think you'd end up with something similar to the situation in Athens (IIRC), where cars with
> > odd numbered plates and cars with even numbered plates are let in on alternate days. Those who
> > can afford it simply own two cars, and drive in every day.
> >
> Well, what would be the problem with the less rich being able to pay a discounted charge: You'd
> need to apply for it, but after that, you would show the ID when buying your ticket (that's how it
> works, isn't it?) and would only have to pay a quid or £2.50 or something. After all, they can
> check eligibility easily enough: IIRC (from Newsnight on Monday), the
number
> plate database is already up and running.
>
Admin costs - there are already loads of exemptions which must be a nightmare to administer.
Fraud also.

 

[Daniel Wilcox]

[Not Responding] wrote:
> On 14 Jan 2003 20:37:21 GMT, "Eatmorepies" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> Hmm. Nationally and out in the sticks, yes. Not so sure if the majority of London residents are
> car drivers. Nationally, 1/3 of households do not have a car (probably an out of date figure, I
> admit) and London has particularly low levels of car ownership because
> 1. Congestion is so bad.
> 2. PT is so good. (relatively)
> 3. It's an old fashioned, dense city with short distances.
>
>

Should be,

3. It's a nether region, dense people with short tempers.



Daniel.

 

[Ambrose Nankive]

"Stephen (aka steford)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Ambrose Nankivell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Danny Colyer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Tony W wondered:
> > > > Where, pray, is the problem in charging by size? The system identifies number plates. Number
> > > > plates are issued to individual cars and DVLA obviously know a Roller from a Reliant Robin.
> > >
> > > I think you'd end up with something similar to the situation in Athens (IIRC), where cars with
> > > odd numbered plates and cars with even
numbered
> > > plates are let in on alternate days. Those who can afford it simply
own
> > > two cars, and drive in every day.
> > >
> > Well, what would be the problem with the less rich being able to pay a discounted charge: You'd
> > need to apply for it, but after that, you would show the ID when buying your ticket (that's how
> > it works, isn't it?) and would only have to pay a quid or £2.50 or something. After all, they
> > can check eligibility easily enough: IIRC (from Newsnight on Monday), the
> number
> > plate database is already up and running.
> >
> Admin costs - there are already loads of exemptions which must be a nightmare to administer.
> Fraud also.
>
Yes, but all you have to do, is, for example, if the registered owner is allowed another benefit,
such as free prescriptions, allow proof of eligibility for that to count for a discount on the
congestion charge

I hope they're already allowing disabled badge holders some kind of discount, anyway.

A

 

[Eatmorepies]

> > >
> >
> > The odd/even system would surely solve the problem without any expensive
> tax
> > collecting system. The percentage of people that could afford to run a second car must be quite
> > low (10%?). It would force people to car share (with real people).
> >
> > Someone made the point that car drivers have already paid for the roads
> and
> > will feel miffed at being charged again - I agree; and Ken needs to
> remember
> > that the bulk of the electorate are car drivers. Will we see a
> Conservative
> > candidate with a car friendly manifesto?
> >
> > John
> >
> Note quite right as the majority of Londoners do not drive in to the
central
> zone, they want a better public transport system which this should help
pay
> for and the charge isn't for roads - it's to prevent congestion/pollution.
I
> think the majority of Londoners in the central zone think that people in cars there are idiots.
>
>
Good point - I live in rural Mid Wales and am insulated from knowledge about central London. I wish
you all well. (I have been to London twice - once on a train and once on my Yamaha).

John

 

[John]

"Tony W" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
> If extracting the information from DVLA ...
>
> Simple -- another few lines of code & its done.
>

You may think it simple, but you know who's responsible for DVLA's code, don't you?

 

[Tony W]

"John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Tony W" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > If extracting the information from DVLA ...
> >
> > Simple -- another few lines of code & its done.
> >
>
> You may think it simple, but you know who's responsible for DVLA's code, don't you?

No -- though I appreciate that my statement is, itself, simplistic and that virtually every
government software project ends in tears.

The concept is simple -- I am sure the implementation would require months and millions.

T

 

[Stephen \]

"Ambrose Nankivell" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "Stephen (aka steford)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Ambrose Nankivell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "Danny Colyer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > Tony W wondered:
> > > > > Where, pray, is the problem in charging by size? The system identifies number plates.
> > > > > Number plates are issued to individual cars and DVLA obviously know a Roller from a
> > > > > Reliant Robin.
> > > >
> > > > I think you'd end up with something similar to the situation in
Athens
> > > > (IIRC), where cars with odd numbered plates and cars with even
> numbered
> > > > plates are let in on alternate days. Those who can afford it simply
> own
> > > > two cars, and drive in every day.
> > > >
> > > Well, what would be the problem with the less rich being able to pay a discounted charge:
> > > You'd need to apply for it, but after that, you
would
> > > show the ID when buying your ticket (that's how it works, isn't it?)
and
> > > would only have to pay a quid or £2.50 or something. After all, they
can
> > > check eligibility easily enough: IIRC (from Newsnight on Monday), the
> > number
> > > plate database is already up and running.
> > >
> > Admin costs - there are already loads of exemptions which must be a nightmare to administer.
> > Fraud also.
> >
> Yes, but all you have to do, is, for example, if the registered owner is allowed another benefit,
> such as free prescriptions, allow proof of eligibility for that to count for a discount on the
> congestion charge
>
> I hope they're already allowing disabled badge holders some kind of discount, anyway.
>
> A
>
Yes disabled badge holders are exempt. See:-
https://www.cclondon.com/WebCenterBrandedTR4/StaticPages/exemptions.aspx