Cycle vs. car RTA - provision of contact details.

[[email protected]]

I'm cross-posting this query from a local newsgroup
(southportforums.com) as, being both a cyclist and a car-driver, I'd
be interested in what the legal position is regarding accidents in
which a cyclist causes damage to a car. Does a cyclist have to give
their name and address, allowing the car driver to claim for damages?

"A cyclist hit the side of my new car (it was the cyclists fault), it
cost to me £350 to get fixed. He refused to give me his name and
address - he just got back on his bike and rode away. I went to the
police station and I was told it was a civil matter."

 

[David Hansen]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 04:47:54 -0800 (PST) someone who may be
[email protected] wrote this:-

>I'm cross-posting this query from a local newsgroup
>(southportforums.com) as, being both a cyclist and a car-driver, I'd
>be interested in what the legal position is regarding accidents in
>which a cyclist causes damage to a car.

Is there anything unclear about Rule 286 of the Highway Code, or the
law it is based on? I rather doubt that this particular law only
applies to motorists. If I was interested enough I could look up the
law to confirm my belief.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

 

[[email protected]]

On Jan 19, 1:39 pm, David Hansen <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 04:47:54 -0800 (PST) someone who may be
> [email protected] wrote this:-
>
> >I'm cross-posting this query from a local newsgroup
> >(southportforums.com) as, being both a cyclist and a car-driver, I'd
> >be interested in what the legal position is regarding accidents in
> >which a cyclist causes damage to a car.
>
> Is there anything unclear about Rule 286 of the Highway Code, or the
> law it is based on? I rather doubt that this particular law only
> applies to motorists. If I was interested enough I could look up the
> law to confirm my belief.
>
> --
>   David Hansen, Edinburgh
>  I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
>  http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

I have looked it up - do you think that I'd be asking if I couldn't
find an answer myself?

Highway Code rule 286 cites The Road Traffic Act 1988 (Section 170).
This relates to accidents involving "mechanically propelled
vehicles" / "motor vehicles" and their "drivers" - no mention of pedal
cyclists. I'm still none the wiser.

 

[Sir Jeremy]

On 19 Jan, 12:47, [email protected] wrote:
> I'm cross-posting this query from a local newsgroup
> (southportforums.com) as, being both a cyclist and a car-driver, I'd
> be interested in what the legal position is regarding accidents in
> which a cyclist causes damage to a car. Does a cyclist have to give
> their name and address, allowing the car driver to claim for damages?
>
> "A cyclist hit the side of my new car (it was the cyclists fault), it
> cost to me £350 to get fixed. He refused to give me his name and
> address - he just got back on his bike and rode away. I went to the
> police station and I was told it was a civil matter."


You'd be better off posting this on the Safespeed forum. There are
serving police officers posting there and people are rather more
friendly. Hansen is about as useful as a chocolate teapot in any case.

 

[spindrift]

On 19 Jan, 14:22, Sir Jeremy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 19 Jan, 12:47, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > I'm cross-posting this query from a local newsgroup
> > (southportforums.com) as, being both a cyclist and a car-driver, I'd
> > be interested in what the legal position is regarding accidents in
> > which a cyclist causes damage to a car. Does a cyclist have to give
> > their name and address, allowing the car driver to claim for damages?
>
> > "A cyclist hit the side of my new car (it was the cyclists fault), it
> > cost to me £350 to get fixed. He refused to give me his name and
> > address - he just got back on his bike and rode away. I went to the
> > police station and I was told it was a civil matter."
>
> You'd be better off posting this on the Safespeed forum. There are
> serving police officers posting there and people are rather more
> friendly. Hansen is about as useful as a chocolate teapot in any case.

"There are serving police officers posting there "

Guffaw. You mean the single most prolific poster "In Gear" who
describes himself variously as a "lawyer/surgeon/vet/copper".

If you seriously believe that muppet's a copper Jezza then I'd like to
talk to you about smuggling £44m out of Nigeria.

 

[spindrift]

On 19 Jan, 14:22, Sir Jeremy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 19 Jan, 12:47, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > I'm cross-posting this query from a local newsgroup
> > (southportforums.com) as, being both a cyclist and a car-driver, I'd
> > be interested in what the legal position is regarding accidents in
> > which a cyclist causes damage to a car. Does a cyclist have to give
> > their name and address, allowing the car driver to claim for damages?
>
> > "A cyclist hit the side of my new car (it was the cyclists fault), it
> > cost to me £350 to get fixed. He refused to give me his name and
> > address - he just got back on his bike and rode away. I went to the
> > police station and I was told it was a civil matter."
>
> You'd be better off posting this on the Safespeed forum. There are
> serving police officers posting there and people are rather more
> friendly. Hansen is about as useful as a chocolate teapot in any case.

"There are serving police officers posting there "

Guffaw. You mean the single most prolific poster "In Gear" who
describes himself variously as a "lawyer/surgeon/vet/copper".

If you seriously believe that muppet's a copper Jezza then I'd like to
talk to you about smuggling £44m out of Nigeria.

 

[Nigel Cliffe]

[email protected] wrote:
> I'm cross-posting this query from a local newsgroup
> (southportforums.com) as, being both a cyclist and a car-driver, I'd
> be interested in what the legal position is regarding accidents in
> which a cyclist causes damage to a car. Does a cyclist have to give
> their name and address, allowing the car driver to claim for damages?
>
> "A cyclist hit the side of my new car (it was the cyclists fault), it
> cost to me £350 to get fixed. He refused to give me his name and
> address - he just got back on his bike and rode away. I went to the
> police station and I was told it was a civil matter."

Same rules as any incident.

If there was no injury, just damage, then its a civil matter. It doesn't
matter if the incident involved a bus, tractor, 4x4, car, cycle,
rollerskate...

The advice from the police station is correct.


Its only a requirement to exchange details (or report to police) in the
event of an injury/death of a person or dog (and a few other animals).



- Nigel


--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

 

[Ian Smith]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008, [email protected] <> wrote:
>
> Highway Code rule 286 cites The Road Traffic Act 1988 (Section 170).
> This relates to accidents involving "mechanically propelled
> vehicles" / "motor vehicles" and their "drivers" - no mention of pedal
> cyclists. I'm still none the wiser.

If it refers to mechanically propelled vehicles then it does not apply
to cyclists.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

 

[Ian Smith]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008, [email protected] <> wrote:
>
> Highway Code rule 286 cites The Road Traffic Act 1988 (Section 170).
> This relates to accidents involving "mechanically propelled
> vehicles" / "motor vehicles" and their "drivers" - no mention of pedal
> cyclists. I'm still none the wiser.

If it refers to mechanically propelled vehicles then it does not apply
to cyclists.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

 

[Ian Smith]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:56:10 -0000, Nigel Cliffe <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Its only a requirement to exchange details (or report to police) in the
> event of an injury/death of a person or dog (and a few other animals).

Really?

So when the Road Traffic Act 1988 section 170 says the following,
what, exactly, does it mean?

"170: This section applies in a case where, owing to the presence of a
motor vehicle on a road, an accident occurs by which damage is caused
to a vehicle other than that motor vehicle or a trailer drawn by that
motor vehicle,

"the driver of the motor vehicle must stop and, if required to do
so by any person having reasonable grounds for so requiring, give his
name and address and also the name and address of the owner and the
identification marks of the vehicle.

"If for any reason the driver of the motor vehicle does not give
his name and address under subsection (2) above, he must report the
accident.

"A person who fails to comply with subsection (2) or (3) above is
guilty of an offence."

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

 

[[email protected]]

On Jan 19, 3:56 pm, "Nigel Cliffe" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Same rules as any incident.
>
> If there was no injury, just damage, then its a civil matter.  It doesn't
> matter if the incident involved a bus, tractor, 4x4, car, cycle,
> rollerskate...
>
> The advice from the police station is correct.
>
> Its only a requirement to exchange details (or report to police) in the
> event of an injury/death of a person or dog (and a few other animals).
>
> - Nigel
>
> --
> Nigel Cliffe,
> Webmaster athttp://www.2mm.org.uk/

Quoting the Road Traffic Act, I don't that's quite right - even if
there are no injuries but the motor vehicle causes damage to another
"vehicle", fixed roadside property or certain animals then the driver
is legally obliged to offer up his details or report the accident to
the police.


DUTY OF DRIVER TO STOP, REPORT ACCIDENT AND GIVE INFORMATION OR
DOCUMENTS

1) This section applies in a case where, owing to the presence of a
mechanically propelled vehicle on a road, an accident occurs by which
-
(a) personal injury is caused to a person other than the driver of
that mechanically propelled vehicle, or
(b) damage is caused -
(i) to a vehicle other than that mechanically propelled vehicle or a
trailer drawn by that mechanically propelled vehicle, or
(ii) to an animal other than an animal in or on that mechanically
propelled vehicle or a trailer drawn by that mechanically propelled
vehicle, or
(iii) to any other property constructed on, fixed to, growing in or
otherwise forming part of the land on which the road in question is
situated or land adjacent to such land

(2) The driver of the mechanically propelled vehicle must stop and, if
required to do so by any person having reasonable grounds for so
requiring, give his name and address and also the name and address of
the owner and the identification marks of the vehicle.

(3) If for any reason the driver of the mechanically propelled vehicle
does not give his name and address under subsection (2) above, he must
report the accident.

(4) A person who fails to comply with subsection (2) or (3) above is
guilty of an offence.

[snip]

(8) In this section "animal" means horse, cattle, ass, mule, sheep,
pig, goat or dog.



I don't know if there are any other relevant pieces of legislation,
but if this is the only relevant bit then -

1) Car hits cyclist, cyclist is injured - car driver must give his
details to cyclist.
2) Car hits cyclist, cyclist and driver are uninjured but his bike is
damaged - car driver must give his details to cyclist. (assuming that
"vehicle", rather than "motor vehicle", in 1(b)(i) applies to pedal
cycles).
3) Cyclist hits car, cyclist and driver are uninjured, cycle is
undamaged, car is damaged - it seems that there is no obligation for
the cyclist to give his name and address to the driver of the car and
it's a civil matter. Is that right,as it seems a little unfair that in
such a case a cyclist could keep his mouth shut and ride away?

 

[Nigel Cliffe]

Ian Smith wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 15:56:10 -0000, Nigel Cliffe <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Its only a requirement to exchange details (or report to police) in
>> the event of an injury/death of a person or dog (and a few other
>> animals).
>
> Really?

OK, brain fade, got that wrong.


- Nigel



--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/

 

[vernon]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:54ecc247-9d76-4186-a134-fe85dfddd240@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 19, 3:56 pm, "Nigel Cliffe" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Same rules as any incident.
>
> If there was no injury, just damage, then its a civil matter. It doesn't
> matter if the incident involved a bus, tractor, 4x4, car, cycle,
> rollerskate...
>
> The advice from the police station is correct.
>
> Its only a requirement to exchange details (or report to police) in the
> event of an injury/death of a person or dog (and a few other animals).
>
> - Nigel
>
> --
> Nigel Cliffe,
> Webmaster athttp://www.2mm.org.uk/

Quoting the Road Traffic Act, I don't that's quite right - even if
there are no injuries but the motor vehicle causes damage to another
"vehicle", fixed roadside property or certain animals then the driver
is legally obliged to offer up his details or report the accident to
the police.


DUTY OF DRIVER TO STOP, REPORT ACCIDENT AND GIVE INFORMATION OR
DOCUMENTS

1) This section applies in a case where, owing to the presence of a
mechanically propelled vehicle on a road, an accident occurs by which
-
(a) personal injury is caused to a person other than the driver of
that mechanically propelled vehicle, or
(b) damage is caused -
(i) to a vehicle other than that mechanically propelled vehicle or a
trailer drawn by that mechanically propelled vehicle, or
(ii) to an animal other than an animal in or on that mechanically
propelled vehicle or a trailer drawn by that mechanically propelled
vehicle, or
(iii) to any other property constructed on, fixed to, growing in or
otherwise forming part of the land on which the road in question is
situated or land adjacent to such land

(2) The driver of the mechanically propelled vehicle must stop and, if
required to do so by any person having reasonable grounds for so
requiring, give his name and address and also the name and address of
the owner and the identification marks of the vehicle.

(3) If for any reason the driver of the mechanically propelled vehicle
does not give his name and address under subsection (2) above, he must
report the accident.

(4) A person who fails to comply with subsection (2) or (3) above is
guilty of an offence.

[snip]

(8) In this section "animal" means horse, cattle, ass, mule, sheep,
pig, goat or dog.



I don't know if there are any other relevant pieces of legislation,
but if this is the only relevant bit then -

1) Car hits cyclist, cyclist is injured - car driver must give his
details to cyclist.
2) Car hits cyclist, cyclist and driver are uninjured but his bike is
damaged - car driver must give his details to cyclist. (assuming that
"vehicle", rather than "motor vehicle", in 1(b)(i) applies to pedal
cycles).
3) Cyclist hits car, cyclist and driver are uninjured, cycle is
undamaged, car is damaged - it seems that there is no obligation for
the cyclist to give his name and address to the driver of the car and
it's a civil matter. Is that right,as it seems a little unfair that in
such a case a cyclist could keep his mouth shut and ride away?

Sometimes things are not fair.

A true scenario - moving car hits stationary car. Details are exchanged.
Owner of stationary car discovers that third party fire and theft insurance
cover only covers damage caused by stationary car should it cause damage to
property of a third party. The owner of the stationary car is unable to
make claim through insurance company because legal cover 'bolt on' had not
been purchased to allow uninsured loss to be reclaimed even though the
driver of the moving car initially admitted liability.

I know of two occurances of the above. The losses could have been recovered
by civil action but weren't. Too much hasstle I suppose?

 

[[email protected]]

On Jan 19, 6:04 pm, "vernon" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Sometimes things are not fair.
>
> A true scenario - moving car hits stationary car.  Details are exchanged..
> Owner of stationary car discovers that third party fire and theft insurance
> cover only covers damage caused by stationary car should it cause damage to
> property of a third party.  The owner of the stationary car is unable to
> make claim through insurance company because legal cover 'bolt on' had not
> been purchased to allow uninsured loss to be reclaimed even though the
> driver of the moving car initially admitted liability.
>

I don't see any problem or unfairness in this case - I've always known
that if I insure my car TPFT (without legal cover) then I'll have to
make my own claim against any driver who damages it.

Going back the the "cyclist damages car" scenario - as far as we know
so far it seems, legally, to be equivalent to causing accidental
damage to someone else's property. Akin to accidentally kicking a
football through a window or dropping a china plate in a shop.
My question is, in such cases is there any way the person whose
property has been damaged can make the person who has damaged it
provide their name and address so that they can be later sued for
damages. If it was "criminal damage" then I suppose that the police
could be called, but what about accidents? Perhaps I need to go over
to uk.legal.....

 

[David Hansen]

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 06:22:12 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Sir
Jeremy <[email protected]> wrote this:-

>Hansen is about as useful as a chocolate teapot in any case.

Excellent, being rude by only using my surname and a personal insult
in one sentence. Do keep it up.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

 

[David Hansen]

On 19 Jan 2008 16:14:08 GMT someone who may be Ian Smith
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>On Sat, 19 Jan 2008, [email protected] <> wrote:
>>
>> Highway Code rule 286 cites The Road Traffic Act 1988 (Section 170).
>> This relates to accidents involving "mechanically propelled
>> vehicles" / "motor vehicles" and their "drivers" - no mention of pedal
>> cyclists. I'm still none the wiser.
>
>If it refers to mechanically propelled vehicles then it does not apply
>to cyclists.

Indeed and my assumption was wrong.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

 

[Tony]

On Jan 19, 12:47 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> I'm cross-posting this query from a local newsgroup
> (southportforums.com) as, being both a cyclist and a car-driver, I'd
> be interested in what the legal position is regarding accidents in
> which a cyclist causes damage to a car. Does a cyclist have to give
> their name and address, allowing the car driver to claim for damages?
>
> "A cyclist hit the side of my new car (it was the cyclists fault), it
> cost to me £350 to get fixed. He refused to give me his name and
> address - he just got back on his bike and rode away. I went to the
> police station and I was told it was a civil matter."

As a matter of interest where & when did this happen?

Tony

 

[Sir Jeremy]

On 20 Jan, 11:52, David Hansen <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 06:22:12 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Sir
> Jeremy <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
> >Hansen is about as useful as a chocolate teapot in any case.
>
> Excellent, being rude by only using my surname and a personal insult
> in one sentence. Do keep it up.
>
> --
>   David Hansen, Edinburgh
>  I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
>  http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54


If he'd asked the same question from the cyclists point of view then
you'd have fallen over yourself to be helpful. I pointed him in the
right direction, but you couldn't resist the temptation to give a
smart-**** answer thus rendering yourself about as useful as a choc
tea pot.

 

[iarocu]

On 19 Jan, 04:47, [email protected] wrote:
> I'm cross-posting this query from a local newsgroup
> (southportforums.com) as, being both a cyclist and a car-driver, I'd
> be interested in what the legal position is regarding accidents in
> which a cyclist causes damage to a car. Does a cyclist have to give
> their name and address, allowing the car driver to claim for damages?
>
> "A cyclist hit the side of my new car (it was the cyclists fault), it
> cost to me £350 to get fixed. He refused to give me his name and
> address - he just got back on his bike and rode away. I went to the
> police station and I was told it was a civil matter."

Incorrect. If the cyclist was at fault there is likely to be the
criminal offence of careless or dangerous cycling depending on the
circumstances.
RTA 1988
28 Reckless cycling

A person who rides a cycle on a road recklessly is guilty of an
offence.

In this section "road" includes a bridleway.
29 Careless, and inconsiderate, cycling

If a person rides a cycle on a road without due care and attention, or
without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road, he
is guilty of an offence.

In this section "road" includes a bridleway.

Having said that in practise the chances of tracing the cyclist look
to be slight.

Iain

 

[David Hansen]

On Sun, 20 Jan 2008 14:57:12 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Sir
Jeremy <[email protected]> wrote this:-

>If he'd asked the same question from the cyclists point of view then
>you'd have fallen over yourself to be helpful.

Excellent, another claim of mind reading. Do keep it up.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54