Cycling article in Telegraph.

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Simon Mason, Sep 8, 2004.

  1. DSK

    DSK New Member

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  2. Rich

    Rich Guest

    "Simon Mason" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > You need to subscribe, so I posted the text:
    >
    > £60,000 on riding lessons? On your bike, drivers tell council
    > By Nick Britten
    > (Filed: 03/09/2004)
    > Commuters in a wealthy city suburb are being offered bicycle lessons in an
    > attempt to persuade them to leave their cars at home.
    >
    >
    > But residents said the £60,000 plan was "absolutely ridiculous" and a
    > "complete waste of money".
    > Wolverhampton city council has targeted 400 households in Tettenhall
    > offering them personal journey plans. Cycling training, advice on how to
    > be
    > more economical when driving and promotional offers on public transport
    > are
    > included. The council hopes the project will help reduce pollution, road
    > accidents and congestion but residents are not so keen.
    >

    This sounds just like a Travelwise project to me, where residents are given
    individual advice about how to make their travel more sustainable. Tried
    successfully in many parts of the UK, Australia and NZ ISTR.

    The fact that the Torygraph decided to make a story out of it is indicative
    of nothing other than the fact that they were short of a good story or two
    for that edition.
     
  3. Pete Biggs

    Pete Biggs Guest

    Terry D wrote:
    > I think DSK is missing the point here. I also feel that the quoted
    > population of Tettenhall were making the same mistake. Cycle training
    > does not necessarily mean teaching people how to balance or operate
    > the brakes or change gear. The most difficult part of utility cycling
    > (i.e. cycling to get somewhere as opposed to going somewhere to
    > cycle) is learning to cope with the fact that you are not the only
    > person using the road. It is possible to cycle to work using shared
    > use roads, I know because that's how I commute, but it is not an
    > innate skill, it has to be learned.


    Well said. I had to learn the hard way, by making mistakes. That's not a
    great thing to do on the roads.

    ~PB
     
  4. > People have little choice about the time
    >they travel to work.


    They may have little choice about the time they start and finish work, but they
    have more choice over what job they do, distance they live from the job and
    means of transport used to get to and from job. Note I'm not suggesting they
    have total freedom of choice, but they do have some input. Example - son's
    current place of work is studying at a college 13 miles away. Choices: - bus,
    car or bike. Train is not an option as there is no train locally at either end.

    Bus - no bus from home to college. He'd have to use another form of transport
    to get to nearest town (4.5 miles roughly) and then get a bus. Ditto for return
    journey. As local public transport stands, there is no bus into town at the
    necessary times, so he'd either have to walk it, much along country roads with
    no footpaths or bike it. The local bus transport was axed recently - this has
    adversely affected *lots* of people locally. Then there's the problem of the
    bike on the bus, and as he doesn't have a folder, it narrows this option
    considerably.

    Car - he's too young to drive, so it would be down to his Dad or me to take
    him. Various parents do transport their offspring this way, but I am not going
    to be the taxi service. He needs to develop some independence. Plus, we have
    our own schedules to take into account.

    Bike - this is what he does - he cycles there & back. Many an adult cannot
    conceive of cycling this sort of distance, yet it is a far more realistic
    option than many seem to think it is.

    Come the *really* foul weather, I will take him in the car - but I haven't told
    him this as I don't want him to think he's being let off the hook in getting
    there under his own steam and to think the car will be made available to him at
    the mere sniff of rain. He has waterproofs and lights to be used.

    If we lived in a town, there'd be more options open, the ease of travel by bus
    would be much greater, for instance. Indeed, in an urban area the
    practicalities of choice are *much* easier and having lived in both
    countryside, town and city during my life, I know from personal experience that
    it's much easier to do without a car when you live and work in an urban setting
    than in a rural setting. BUT, too many people don't *think* about what their
    options really are. They *assume* it's car only that's available to them.

    Cheers, helen s



    --This is an invalid email address to avoid spam--
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  5. David Hansen

    David Hansen Guest

    On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:43:27 GMT someone who may be "soup"
    <[email protected]> wrote this:-

    > £60,000 , surely the 'council' could get a bulk discount and get
    >1,000 bicycles [1]for that money, [snip]
    > surely this will do more to alleviate
    >congestion than teaching people how to ride in traffic [2]


    More cycles are sold than cars and that has been the case for a few
    decades. However, most of the cycles languish at the back of sheds,
    or are thrown away. Adding 1,000 bikes to this would not be a wise
    use of money.

    Teaching adults how to ride on the roads properly is a very good way
    of using the money.


    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
    I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
    prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
     
  6. David Hansen

    David Hansen Guest

    On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:13:38 GMT someone who may be "Cicero"
    <[email protected]> wrote this:-

    >
    >Apart from creating more congestion


    Congestion tends to be caused by cars, not buses.

    >all that has
    >happened is that bus commuters are being given priority over other
    >commuters.


    Glad to hear it.

    >This seems to be rather unfair bearing in mind that many car
    >users simply could not travel by bus because of poor transport links.


    My recollection of an RAC report of about five years ago is that
    most motorists they interviewed accepted that they could have made
    their journey by other means.

    >Councillor Jaspal, like so many
    >Councillors doesn't appear to understand that public money isn't an
    >unlimited resource.


    As has been said, neither is road space. It makes sense to encourage
    those who minimise the use of this scarce commodity, cyclists,
    pedestrians and those using public transport.


    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
    I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
    prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
     
  7. On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:14:11 +1000, DSK wrote:

    >
    > IMO, its great that something is being done to push folks towards
    > cycling. However, £60K on teaching folks how to get from A to B and
    > how to stay upright is pointless.

    It is not about staying upright.
    Many London boroughs have a scheme to pay for adults to have cycling
    lessons. These are about getting back on your bike, and cycling on
    the road.
    I met someone on our ride on Saturday who had some lessons, and was
    very pleased with them.

    These are NOT sessions where adults are taken to the park, stabilizers
    put on and somebody runs after them.
     
  8. On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 19:56:00 +0100, D.M. Procida wrote:

    >
    > A couple of weeks ago there was a festival in Cardiff Bay. The traffic
    > was horrendous - people circling round and round the roads, trying to
    > find a space to park. They should have had a cycle park, and a stall,
    > and anyone parking their cycle there would be given £5 if they left at
    > least 60 minutes later.


    At the Transport for London Cyclefest in Trafalgar Suare, and at the
    finish of the Tour of Britain on Sunday TfL made a big deal of getting
    cyclists to park on the eighth floor of a multistory car park
    at Admirality Arch.
    Most cyclists at the Tour finish kept their bikes with them or chained
    them to the railings in Whitehall.
    Actually, I'm surprised 'the authorities' didn't have a snit about this.
     
  9. DSK

    DSK New Member

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    If thats the case, it sounds good, but I didin't assumr that the lessons would have been as comprehensive as that, I thought more like a cycling proficiency (spelling?) test that kids do at schools.

    As for car commuters, there are a majority that can either car share and those who live within walking > cycling disctance (lets say 5 miles as that seems like an acceptable general figure) but always get a lift or take the car.

    I found when got back on the bike, my journey was quicker to and from university (4 mile trip). 15 minute drive to the nearest free parking public on a public road from uni, and 15 minute walk to uni = about a 30 minute trip. Cycle = 15-20mins to uni (hill), Uni > Home = 10 minutes when pushing myself to the limit.
     
  10. In article <[email protected]>, Danny Colyer wrote:
    >Simon Mason quoted:
    >> £60,000 on riding lessons? On your bike, drivers tell council

    ><snip>
    >> But residents said the £60,000 plan was "absolutely ridiculous" and a
    >> "complete waste of money".

    >
    >Seems like an excellent use of taxpayer's money to me. I think the
    >council spokesman was spot on:
    >
    >> A lot of people have a perception that cycling on the roads is very
    >> dangerous," he said. "A lot of cyclists are not aware of the rules of the
    >> road and how they've got to behave on the road."


    It's allegedly targetted at adult commuters in 400 households. Assuming
    an average of two relevent people per household (which is almost certainly
    high), that's 75 pounds per person. If it actually results in significant
    numbers of people taking up cycling, more safely than they would without
    it, it could be worth it. I'm not entirely convinced though.
     
  11. Ian Smith

    Ian Smith Guest

    On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 21:43:00 GMT, Cicero <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > It's quite irrelevant to me personally because I don't commute. The point is
    > that people pay their taxes and have a right to choose their own mode of
    > transport without being penalised for their choice. That's a question of
    > being fair not a matter for childish sarcasm.


    Don't be silly. (It's practically a dead cert than when someone
    starts with "I pay my taxes" they're about to say something silly).

    Strange as it may seem, the people on teh bus pay taxes too. They
    have at least as much right not to be held up by cars as cars have not
    to be held up by busses. In fact, since the busses have potential to
    be less damaging to the environs and environment, there is good reason
    for people choosing to use the bus to receive (fractional)
    preferential treatment.

    The car drivers of this country, far from being penalised for their
    choice, are only just beginning to experience some of teh consequences
    of their choices. Since this comes after a long period of car drivers
    being protected from teh consequences of their actions (and everyone
    else being made to suffer instead), it comes as a bit of a shock to
    teh poor dears.

    regards, Ian SMith
    --
    |\ /| no .sig
    |o o|
    |/ \|
     
  12. David Hansen

    David Hansen Guest

    On Thu, 9 Sep 2004 12:30:10 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be Ian Smith
    <[email protected]> wrote this:-

    >Strange as it may seem, the people on teh bus pay taxes too. They
    >have at least as much right not to be held up by cars as cars have not
    >to be held up by busses. In fact, since the busses have potential to
    >be less damaging to the environs and environment, there is good reason
    >for people choosing to use the bus to receive (fractional)
    >preferential treatment.


    Looking at a congested city like London it is clear that in the
    1950s the roads were relatively freely flowing because most people
    travelled by bus and cycle. Now the roads are far more congested and
    I gather they are carrying less people than they were in the 1950s.
    This theft of roadspace has been allowed to go on for too long.




    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
    I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
    prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
     
  13. Dave Kahn

    Dave Kahn Guest

    "Rich" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<PZL%[email protected]>...

    > This sounds just like a Travelwise project to me, where residents are given
    > individual advice about how to make their travel more sustainable. Tried
    > successfully in many parts of the UK, Australia and NZ ISTR.
    >
    > The fact that the Torygraph decided to make a story out of it is indicative
    > of nothing other than the fact that they were short of a good story or two
    > for that edition.


    And of course the £60,000 is for the whole scheme; it's not all for
    cycle training. The journalist gets the response he wants by asking a
    dishonest question: "Do you think spending £60,000 on cycle training
    for 400 households is a good use of public money?"

    --
    Dave...
     
  14. JohnB

    JohnB Guest

    ScumOfTheRoad wrote:
    >
    > On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:14:11 +1000, DSK wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > IMO, its great that something is being done to push folks towards
    > > cycling. However, £60K on teaching folks how to get from A to B and
    > > how to stay upright is pointless.


    > It is not about staying upright.
    > Many London boroughs have a scheme to pay for adults to have cycling
    > lessons. These are about getting back on your bike, and cycling on
    > the road.
    > I met someone on our ride on Saturday who had some lessons, and was
    > very pleased with them.


    95% of the riders who have taken our training over this summer (to the
    National Standards) have said they will cycle more as a result.

    John B
    http://www.hampshirecycletraining.org.uk
     
  15. JohnB

    JohnB Guest

    ScumOfTheRoad wrote:

    > At the Transport for London Cyclefest in Trafalgar Suare, and at the
    > finish of the Tour of Britain on Sunday TfL made a big deal of getting
    > cyclists to park on the eighth floor of a multistory car park
    > at Admirality Arch.
    > Most cyclists at the Tour finish kept their bikes with them or chained
    > them to the railings in Whitehall.


    In Whitehall there were some cyclists who chained their bikes to the
    barriers thus preventing others from getting good positions to view the racing.
    Selfish lot.

    John B
     
  16. JohnB

    JohnB Guest

    DSK wrote:
    >
    > If thats the case, it sounds good, but I didin't assumr that the lessons
    > would have been as comprehensive as that, I thought more like a cycling
    > proficiency (spelling?) test that kids do at schools.


    I do both training for the Local Authority in primary schools (to their
    scheme) and also training for children and adults to the new standards
    introduced this year.
    Whilst the LA has good intentions there really is no comparison with
    proper cycle training using real roads and real traffic situations.

    John B
    http://www.hampshirecycletraining.org.uk
     
  17. On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:20:43 +0000, JohnB wrote:

    >
    >
    > In Whitehall there were some cyclists who chained their bikes to the
    > barriers thus preventing others from getting good positions to view the racing.
    > Selfish lot.
    >

    I didn't see that, but I agree that it is selfish.

    I would like to see TfL setting up temporary bike racks at events like
    these, and having a couple of stewards stand by them.

    I saw some temporary racks set up at a French food fair in Greenwich,
    so its certainly possible.
     
  18. JohnB

    JohnB Guest

    ScumOfTheRoad wrote:
    >
    > On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:20:43 +0000, JohnB wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >
    > > In Whitehall there were some cyclists who chained their bikes to the
    > > barriers thus preventing others from getting good positions to view the racing.
    > > Selfish lot.
    > >

    > I didn't see that, but I agree that it is selfish.


    There was a group of about ten who turned up, chained their bikes to the
    barrier posed by them, had their pic taken, then left for a coffee (or
    something), leaving the bikes blocking access to watch the racing.
    Yellow tops from a South London Club starting with Su-----.

    > I would like to see TfL setting up temporary bike racks at events like
    > these, and having a couple of stewards stand by them.


    I'm sure I saw some notices that advertised that (or something similar).

    John B
     
  19. Eiron

    Eiron Guest

    JohnB wrote:

    >
    > 95% of the riders who have taken our training over this summer (to the
    > National Standards) have said they will cycle more as a result.


    What is the new "National Standard?"
     
  20. JohnB

    JohnB Guest

    Eiron wrote:
    >
    > JohnB wrote:
    >
    > > 95% of the riders who have taken our training over this summer (to the
    > > National Standards) have said they will cycle more as a result.

    >
    > What is the new "National Standard?"


    It is a comprehensive set of National Standards for Cycle Training and
    Instruction that have been under development over the last couple of
    years and introduced this year.
    They have been created by the CTC with funding from and the support of
    the Department for Transport and the Department for Health, in
    cooperation with a wide range of partners including RoSPA, Association
    of Chief Police Officers, National Cycling Strategy Board, and many others.

    Almost every aspect of running cycle training is covered, from setting
    up a scheme to delivering the training and monitoring its effectiveness.
    They include best practice regarding risk assessments, child protection,
    customer care, first aid, cycle maintenance, teaching techniques,
    session planning, insurance and so on.
    The cycle training covers levels from complete beginner to advanced
    cycling and is rightly heavily influenced by John Franklin's Cyclecraft.

    I believe it is one of the most important positive developments to have
    happened in cycling in recent years and one of the best ways to
    encourage more people to start cycling or to help them return to
    cycling.
    For more information you can contact the CTC at: http://www.ctc.org.uk/

    John B
    http://www.hampshirecycletraining.org.uk/
     
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