Cycling Competitively

[Velvet]

Simon Brooke wrote:

> And you, frankly, are a bit short of mountains and rocks. This isn't an
> insult either to you or to where you live. If someone were to buy one
> of the kids round here a snow board you wouldn't expect them to be
> hugely excited. There's nowhere to use it. Similarly, where is Nathan
> going to use a mountain bike?
>

Mmm, I have mountainbike-suitable countryside near me (the north downs
provide excellent challenges for those who like haring up and down
'mountainsides' - or so I've heard), but you'd never in a million years
get me on a mountainbike doing that sort of thing 'for fun'.

I'm slightly surprised to discover my love of surfaces tarmac,
especially given I dislike the roads around here (due to traffic and
gradients) - in some ways mtnbiking would make *much* more sense, but it
just really doesn't appeal. In fact, it appeals less than being dunked
in a bath of cold custard.

So I don't think whether a particular environment is available locally
is particularly relevent to whether you have an interest (or burning
desire) in doing that sport, tbh. Me, I adore sailing, but there's one
small puddle near me. I still adore it, even though it's a very rare
occasion I actually do it.

I'd imagine if someone were sufficiently into mountainbiking, they could
start out along some of the rougher paths (albeit vaguely flat, given
Norfolk) - full of mud, gravel, ruts, holes etc - and move further
afield to more undulating terrain on day-excursions out etc.

--


Velvet

 

[dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers]

>But of course someone living in Norfolk isn't interested in mountain
>bikes.

Wrong again There's actually a club locally that has a very good reputation
for MTB & cyclocross, with members participating locally (losts of stuff in
Thetford Forest) and internationally. Anymore misconceptions about Norfolk? ;-)

Cheers, helen s



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[dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers]

>Similarly, where is Nathan
>going to use a mountain bike?
>

He actually does use one in the winter, when it is snowy, icy and on uneven
ground. Similarly, whilst we don't have mountains, there are some interesting
large WWII craters in the Thetford Forest, which, along with very muddy, slippy
and uneven forest terrain, make for a healthy cyclocross & MTB events during
the winter months.

Now, Simon, anymore misconceptions about south of the border?

Cheers, helen s


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[Peter Clinch]

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers wrote:

> He actually does use one in the winter, when it is snowy, icy and on uneven
> ground.

MTB won't help you on ice: you need 3+ wheels or hard ice studs on tyres
to get away with ice. Knobblies should work on snow, though.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers]

>
>MTB won't help you on ice: you need 3+ wheels or hard ice studs on tyres
>to get away with ice. Knobblies should work on snow, though.

Well it's all he's got, all he's going to get and it's better than his road
bike with skinny wheels & tyres ;-)

Cheers, helen s

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[David Martin]

On 6/9/04 3:48 pm, in article [email protected],
"dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers" <[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>> MTB won't help you on ice: you need 3+ wheels or hard ice studs on tyres
>> to get away with ice. Knobblies should work on snow, though.
>
> Well it's all he's got, all he's going to get and it's better than his road
> bike with skinny wheels & tyres ;-)

Nokian Haakepeliitaa A10 come in 32-622 and are the appropriate parts of the
appropriate beast when it comes to riding up a 1 in 10 covered in sheet ice
with the weeks shopping in the trailer. I don't have those any more but I do
have a pair in MTB size that are equally good, the W102.

Sound like a dog running across a marble floor though..

...d

 

[Peter Clinch]

dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers wrote:

> Well it's all he's got, all he's going to get and it's better than his road
> bike with skinny wheels & tyres ;-)

You can fall off an MTB on a sheet of ice just as quickly as a racer.
Bugger all friction on ice with either :-(

Not wanting to scratch the racer falling off is a good reason not to use
it, mind, as is not wanting the road salt ground into his transmission
where it'll come back to haunt him at the next TT, and having something
you can put mudgaurds and/or crud catchers onto without denting the
performance is also worthwhile any time the road is covered in that
delightful mix of water, oil, salt and general cack that often coats the
roads in winter.

Ah, here we are looking forwards to it already! ;-/

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Velvet]

Peter Clinch wrote:

> dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers wrote:
>
>> Well it's all he's got, all he's going to get and it's better than his
>> road
>> bike with skinny wheels & tyres ;-)
>
>
> You can fall off an MTB on a sheet of ice just as quickly as a racer.
> Bugger all friction on ice with either :-(
>
> Not wanting to scratch the racer falling off is a good reason not to use
> it, mind, as is not wanting the road salt ground into his transmission
> where it'll come back to haunt him at the next TT, and having something
> you can put mudgaurds and/or crud catchers onto without denting the
> performance is also worthwhile any time the road is covered in that
> delightful mix of water, oil, salt and general cack that often coats the
> roads in winter.
>
> Ah, here we are looking forwards to it already! ;-/
>
> Pete.

Bah, I was being told yesterday that we would be doing the CTC sunday
rides this winter. *I don't ride my bike in winter!!* Apparently this
is going to change... I'm not so sure ;-) Spring, yes, once there's no
frost on the road. Summer, yes. Autumn, yes - quite enjoy autumn
cycling, though avoiding slippery leaves can be a bit of a problem, I've
learnt this is solved by avoiding crappy pavement cycle paths and
sticking to the roads Winter - cold, wet, slippery oily roads, yuck
yuck yuck, no thanks.

--


Velvet

 

[David Martin]

On 6/9/04 4:09 pm, in article [email protected], "Peter Clinch"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers wrote:
>
>> Well it's all he's got, all he's going to get and it's better than his road
>> bike with skinny wheels & tyres ;-)
>
> You can fall off an MTB on a sheet of ice just as quickly as a racer.
> Bugger all friction on ice with either :-(

I would beg to differ and rather than citing theory I am quoting from
practical experience of falling off both sorts of bikes on ice. Whilst it is
true that on absolutely sheet ice there is nothing to choose between them
(they both stay in the garage), it is in marginal conditions that the
difference emerges.

On an uneven ice surface, particularly one containing lots of air such as
hard packed snow, the MTB with knobblies wins hands down. It also wins on
slush where wet snow can be compressed into ice under the wheels.

The best of all is to use studded knobblies with a tread that minimises
tarmac rolling resistance. This gives the best of both worlds.

...d

 

[Peter Clinch]

David Martin wrote:

> On an uneven ice surface, particularly one containing lots of air such as
> hard packed snow, the MTB with knobblies wins hands down.

Yes: we're into semantics here, note how I said on snow that knobblies
make a useful difference.

I'm meaning ice as in sheet water ice.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Peter Clinch]

Velvet wrote:

> Bah, I was being told yesterday that we would be doing the CTC sunday
> rides this winter. *I don't ride my bike in winter!!* Apparently this
> is going to change... I'm not so sure ;-) Spring, yes, once there's no
> frost on the road. Summer, yes. Autumn, yes - quite enjoy autumn
> cycling, though avoiding slippery leaves can be a bit of a problem, I've
> learnt this is solved by avoiding crappy pavement cycle paths and
> sticking to the roads Winter - cold, wet, slippery oily roads, yuck
> yuck yuck, no thanks.

It can be sunny and mild in winter and bloody cold in Spring and Autumn
(pretty miserable in summer too...). The oil on roads is a permanent
fixture, and it'll be mixed in with wet surface goop any time there's a
wet road, and that's hardly limited to winter (it's just roads stay
wetter for longer with less warmth to dry them).

So don't equate winter with there necessarily being cold, wet, slippery
oily roads. You can get those things outside of winter, and you can
have great days in winter. You're more /likely/ to have a cold
experience, but that's not the same as definitely having one.

And you'll enjoy spring cycling a lot more if you've been keeping going
through the winter, because you won't have to get up to speed. Aside
from oiling and cleaning the transmission a bit more frequently and
taking some extra clothes there needn't be much more to winter cycling.

A bit like cycling in the rain, cycling in winter is far worse in
anticipation than it is actually getting on and doing it. Especially if
you're choosing your days rather than having to do A to B on every one.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[David Martin]

On 6/9/04 4:27 pm, in article [email protected], "Peter Clinch"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> David Martin wrote:
>
>> On an uneven ice surface, particularly one containing lots of air such as
>> hard packed snow, the MTB with knobblies wins hands down.
>
> Yes: we're into semantics here, note how I said on snow that knobblies
> make a useful difference.
>
> I'm meaning ice as in sheet water ice.

Dry or wet? There is a continuum of frozen water from snow (which is really
just little bits of ice) to 'steel ice' which is so clear you can see
through it for many feet.

On road you find all sorts, and in all conditions (wet/dry/temperature)
depending on the weather. So to limit the discussion to ice==sheet water ice
is somewhat arbitrary, given that most of the riding conditions will not be
on that.

There are good technical reasons why knobblies will work better on icy
surfaces than road slicks (as well as practical experience).

...d

 

[Velvet]

Peter Clinch wrote:

<snippage>

>
> A bit like cycling in the rain, cycling in winter is far worse in
> anticipation than it is actually getting on and doing it. Especially if
> you're choosing your days rather than having to do A to B on every one.
>
> Pete.

True enough. I'll probably end up giving it a go. I've cycled in rain
now, and it wasn't that bad (not that I had a choice, given it didn't
start out raining!). Cold I don't mind too much, given my ability to
overheat rapidly (one year I was still in shorts, thin cotton/lycra
non-fleece leggings over the top, and short sleeved jersey, in october,
and STILL hot while cycling, albeit cold when stopped). But the grease
on the roads is what's most of a concern.

Not planning stopping cycling over the winter though (pats turbo). As
long as I keep the momentum going and work doesn't overwork me, I'll be
hopping on that regularly. I have this idea, you see, that if I keep at
it over the winter, and follow a several-months-long training plan, I
might actually end up being able to keep up better next year (and who
knows, maybe others might struggle to keep up with *me* in the
spring).... I can but dream LOL
--


Velvet

 

[Dave Larrington]

Peter Clinch wrote:

> MTB won't help you on ice: you need 3+ wheels or hard ice studs on
> tyres to get away with ice. Knobblies should work on snow, though.

It /may/ be easier to catch the slide with the wider bars typically found on
MTB's, but OTOH my friend Mr. Bird still managed to fall off his MTB on ice
and break his leg...

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
===========================================================

 

[Peter Clinch]

David Martin wrote:

> On road you find all sorts, and in all conditions (wet/dry/temperature)
> depending on the weather. So to limit the discussion to ice==sheet water ice
> is somewhat arbitrary, given that most of the riding conditions will not be
> on that.

What I was getting at was just to point out that if one knows it to be
icy as in slippy type icy outside, one could well be kidding oneself if
one thinks "I have the knobblies on the MTB, so I'll be fine!". Just as
a note of caution rather than anything else.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Peter Clinch]

Velvet wrote:

> Not planning stopping cycling over the winter though (pats turbo).

A turbo is much, much better than nothing, but I don't think it'll do
you nearly as much good as real riding, especially in terms of handling
the bike on roads with confidence. Winter roads shouldn't be any worse
for friction than a wet summer road if it hasn't frozen, and you can do
those so no need to worry unduly.

The only time winter becomes a cycling grind is day after day of grot if
the weather gets like August just was but in January and the bike is how
you get about, but if you're not using it for day to day there's no
reason to let that sort of thing grind you down.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[David Martin]

On 7/9/04 8:43 am, in article [email protected], "Peter Clinch"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> David Martin wrote:
>
>> On road you find all sorts, and in all conditions (wet/dry/temperature)
>> depending on the weather. So to limit the discussion to ice==sheet water ice
>> is somewhat arbitrary, given that most of the riding conditions will not be
>> on that.
>
> What I was getting at was just to point out that if one knows it to be
> icy as in slippy type icy outside, one could well be kidding oneself if
> one thinks "I have the knobblies on the MTB, so I'll be fine!". Just as
> a note of caution rather than anything else.

Indeed. The normal situation was that I would take the road bike out of the
garage, try to get on and not even be able to start as it would slide out
from under.

The MTB with knobblies was a bit better and would give you acceptable
(though interesting) traction in most conditions.

Studded tyres, no worries at all.. I still have mine and have used them once
since moving to Dundee.

...d

 

[Velvet]

Peter Clinch wrote:

> A turbo is much, much better than nothing, but I don't think it'll do
> you nearly as much good as real riding, especially in terms of handling
> the bike on roads with confidence. Winter roads shouldn't be any worse
> for friction than a wet summer road if it hasn't frozen, and you can do
> those so no need to worry unduly.
>
> The only time winter becomes a cycling grind is day after day of grot if
> the weather gets like August just was but in January and the bike is how
> you get about, but if you're not using it for day to day there's no
> reason to let that sort of thing grind you down.
>
> Pete.

Well, we'll see ;-) I expect to still be doing the odd weekend long
ride through oct and into november, it's dec/jan/feb where it'll be more
likely than not I won't want to get out there, and where the turbo will
become invaluable (though even now, it does me for the weekday stuff
quite well enough - it can be easily hard enough work and taxing
mentally if I throw in intervals (they're not just up/down between two
HR limits when I do 'em) as well...

--


Velvet

 

[David Martin]

On 7/9/04 9:20 am, in article
Xae%[email protected], "Velvet"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Well, we'll see ;-) I expect to still be doing the odd weekend long
> ride through oct and into november, it's dec/jan/feb where it'll be more
> likely than not I won't want to get out there,

The 'not wanting to get out there' is extremely common. It's the 'don't know
why I bothered getting out here because it is miserable' that is far less
common than the 'I'm glad I got up off the sofa and outside on the bike'.


Go on, surprise yourself.

...d

 

[the.Mark]

David Martin wrote:
> On 7/9/04 8:43 am, in article [email protected],
> "Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> David Martin wrote:
>>
>>> On road you find all sorts, and in all conditions
>>> (wet/dry/temperature) depending on the weather. So to limit
>>> the discussion to ice==sheet water ice is somewhat
>>> arbitrary, given that most of the riding conditions will not
>>> be on that.
>>
>> What I was getting at was just to point out that if one knows
>> it to be icy as in slippy type icy outside, one could well be
>> kidding oneself if one thinks "I have the knobblies on the
>> MTB, so I'll be fine!". Just as a note of caution rather
>> than anything else.
>
> Indeed. The normal situation was that I would take the road
> bike out of the garage, try to get on and not even be able to
> start as it would slide out from under.
>
> The MTB with knobblies was a bit better and would give you
> acceptable (though interesting) traction in most conditions.
>
> Studded tyres, no worries at all.. I still have mine and have
> used them once since moving to Dundee.
>
> ..d

I love cycling in the winter. Cycling on ice is great fun, when summer
finishes I can't wait for it to get cold. I just wish the council would stop
putting salt on the roads.
--
Mark

1x1 wheel, 3x2 wheels & 1x3 wheels.