Cycling on private property (unauthorised)

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Pmailkeey, Feb 22, 2004.

  1. Pmailkeey

    Pmailkeey Guest

    uk.rec.cycling uk.legal

    Hi all,

    What's the situation wrt landowners and the public cycling on their land ?

    I suspect that, providing no damage to the land occurs, only Trespass applies, and that being a
    civil matter, would not interest the police.

    DETAIL:

    There are more and more public access areas on private land on city/town centre developments where
    pedestrians are quite welcome. The obvious ones are shopping centres.

    What can shopping centre management/security officers really do if they don't want cyclists riding
    their bikes on their land (while pedestrians are about) ?

    I believe it can only be trespass and only after the cyclist has been asked to leave the land and
    fails to do so.

    Comments please.

    TIA.
    --
    Comm again, Mike.
     
    Tags:


  2. Tony Raven

    Tony Raven Guest

    pmailkeey wrote:
    > uk.rec.cycling uk.legal
    >
    > Hi all,
    >
    > What's the situation wrt landowners and the public cycling on their land ?
    >
    > I suspect that, providing no damage to the land occurs, only Trespass applies, and that being a
    > civil matter, would not interest the police.
    >
    > DETAIL:
    >
    > There are more and more public access areas on private land on city/town centre developments where
    > pedestrians are quite welcome. The obvious ones are shopping centres.
    >
    > What can shopping centre management/security officers really do if they don't want cyclists riding
    > their bikes on their land (while pedestrians are about) ?
    >
    > I believe it can only be trespass and only after the cyclist has been asked to leave the land and
    > fails to do so.
    >

    Check the local byelaws first to make sure there is nothing hidden there and that they haven't been
    made public rights of way with a TRO. If you do cycle there they can ask you to leave by the
    shortest route (not the most convenient for you) and use reasonable force if you refuse/resist. If
    you persist in trespassing they can take out an injunction to stop you. Thereafter if you break the
    injunction its between you and the Courts. During the first stage they can sue you for damages
    (likely to be minimal), in the second fines and even prison beckon.

    If you are having run ins with management and security they probably will take it to the second
    stage (with CCTV evidence no doubt) if you persist.

    Tony
     
  3. Elyob

    Elyob Guest

    "pmailkeey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > What's the situation wrt landowners and the public cycling on their land ?

    <snip>

    > What can shopping centre management/security officers really do if they don't want cyclists riding
    > their bikes on their land (while pedestrians are about) ?
    >
    > I believe it can only be trespass and only after the cyclist has been asked to leave the land and
    > fails to do so.
    >
    > Comments please.

    Why would you want to cycle in a shoping centre? You should lock it up like the rest of us.
     
  4. Soup

    Soup Guest

    Soup just had to say
    >
    > I suspect that, providing no damage to the land occurs, only Trespass applies, and that being a
    > civil matter, would not interest the police.

    AFAIK in Scotland there is no trespass,think you can only be "done" for criminal damage so legally
    as long as you don't break anything you should be able to cycle on private land, however this
    should be tinged with a bit common sense as any landowner can blame you for fences broken, gates
    of their hinges etc., so a friendly word may be in order. (someone more lawyerly [is that a word
    ?] than me might be able to tell you about the situation of crossing locked gates to gain access
    to this land) As for malls etc. they tend to be privately owned so you can be ejected and no
    reason needs to be given,and if you don't leave then it is entering without permission and the
    police will be interested. NOTE:- malls tend to be covered structures, land not so. IANAL
    --
    Yours S. addy not usable (not that you would try it) ( ) Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam
    suffodiant! / \ www.killies.co.uk/forums/index.php
     
  5. Simon Brooke

    Simon Brooke Guest

    [email protected] (pmailkeey) writes:

    > uk.rec.cycling uk.legal
    >
    > Hi all,
    >
    > What's the situation wrt landowners and the public cycling on their land ?

    See the Land Reform Act, 2003. It's legal, and there's absolutely bog-all the landowner can do -
    unless you happen to be in England or Wales.

    Beautiful piece of legislation. <URL:http://www.scotland-
    legislation.hmso.gov.uk/legislation/scotland/acts2003/20030002.htm>

    --
    [email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; 99% of browsers can't run ActiveX controls. Unfortunately ;; 99% of users are using the
    1% of browsers that can... [seen on /. 08:04:02]
     
  6. Graeme

    Graeme Guest

  7. Tony Raven

    Tony Raven Guest

    Simon Brooke wrote:
    > [email protected] (pmailkeey) writes:
    >
    >> uk.rec.cycling uk.legal
    >>
    >> Hi all,
    >>
    >> What's the situation wrt landowners and the public cycling on their land ?
    >
    > See the Land Reform Act, 2003. It's legal, and there's absolutely bog-all the landowner can do -
    > unless you happen to be in England or Wales.
    >
    > Beautiful piece of legislation.
    >
    <URL:http://www.scotland-legislation.hmso.gov.uk/legislation/scotland/acts2003 /20030002.htm>

    Not quite. This is apparently a shopping centre we are discussing in which case you could be
    caught by:

    6(1) The land in respect of which access rights are not exercisable is land-

    (a) to the extent that there is on it-
    (b) a building or other structure or works, plant or fixed machinery;
    (c) a caravan, tent or other place affording a person privacy or shelter;

    You could also concievably be caught also under:

    9 Conduct excluded from access rights

    The conduct which is within this section is-

    (d) being on or crossing land for the purpose of taking away, for commercial purposes or for
    profit, anything in or on the land;

    since it is a shopping centre after all ;-)

    Tony
     
  8. Howard

    Howard Guest

    > Beautiful piece of legislation.
    > <URL:http://www.scotland-legislation.hmso.gov.uk/legislation/scotland/acts2003/20030002.htm>

    Maybe,

    It presumes a right of access for 'responsible' cycling. HOWEVER it also gives local authorities the
    power to impose criminal bylaws an all land in Scotland, so POTENTIALLY turning the right of access
    in Scotland by cyclists from a not actually illegal/but not a legal right either to an illegal act
    carrying the full weight of criminal law.

    Under the legislation bylaws may be passed banning cycling outright if it is held that cyclist cause
    'damage' (wheelprints???) or a 'nuisance' (to many ramblers a cyclists even being on the trail
    constitutes a 'nuisance').

    The powers are very similar to those already given to bodies such as the National Park Authorities
    under the 1947 Public Access acts and Local Authorities under the CRoW legislation. In the UK The
    Peak District and Dartmoor National Parks have already made cycling on anything other then on a
    bridleway or road a criminal offence. I have no doubt there will be plenty of applications made in
    Scotland to make cycling similarly illegal in many areas.

    Again, although the Scottish act provides for the creation of a 'core paths' network disputes will
    be settled by public inquiries and Local Authorities will be able to close/divert the network as
    well. Much like happens in the U.K. with 'rights of way'...

    http://www.thebikezone.org.uk/thebikezone/campaigning/offroad/offroadlaw.html
     
  9. Pmailkeey

    Pmailkeey Guest

    On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 05:19:53 -0000, "Tony Raven"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    :)Check the local byelaws first to make sure there is nothing hidden there and )that they haven't
    :been made public rights of way with a TRO.

    In this particular case, it's unlikely as there's doors at both ends. But the question also applies
    to the Bull Ring shopping centre recently opened where there's an open central route through the
    centre (no doors, no roof) and they're not keen on bikes either.

    :)If you are having run ins with management

    I'm not sure who owns the property, but Central Library is a significant part of the complex - so
    I'd guess it's Council land.
    --
    Comm again, Mike.
     
  10. Pmailkeey

    Pmailkeey Guest

    On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:43:18 GMT, "elyob" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    :)Why would you want to cycle in a shoping centre? You should lock it up like )the rest of us.

    For the same reason anyone would - to get to the other side and carry on one's bike journey !

    Fortunately, the one I pass through most frequently (Minories) has never been a problem.
    Paradise Forum hasn't been until this one "incident". Until a year or two ago, it was cycles
    accepted, anyway !
    --
    Comm again, Mike.
     
  11. Pmailkeey

    Pmailkeey Guest

    On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:55:21 GMT, "Soup" <[email protected]> wrote:

    :) AFAIK in Scotland there is no trespass,think you can only be "done" )for criminal damage so
    :legally as long as you don't break anything you )should be able to cycle on private land, however
    :this should be tinged )with a bit common sense as any landowner can blame you for fences )broken,
    :gates of their hinges etc., so a friendly word may be in order. )(someone more lawyerly [is that a
    :word ?] than me might be able to ) tell you about the situation of crossing locked gates to gain
    :access to ) this land)

    I don't think I'd bother if a locked gate was an obstacle.

    --
    Comm again, Mike.
     
  12. Pmailkeey

    Pmailkeey Guest

    On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 11:39:28 -0000, "Tony Raven"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    :)Simon Brooke wrote: )> [email protected] (pmailkeey) writes: )> )>> uk.rec.cycling
    :)>> uk.legal )>> )>> Hi all, )>> )>> What's the situation wrt landowners and the public cycling on
    :their )>> land ? )> )> See the Land Reform Act, 2003. It's legal, and there's absolutely )> bog-all
    :the landowner can do - unless you happen to be in England or )> Wales. )> )> Beautiful piece of
    :legislation. )> )<URL:http://www.scotland-legislation.hmso.gov.uk/legislation/scotland/acts2003
    :)/20030002.htm> ) )Not quite. This is apparently a shopping centre we are discussing in which )case
    :you could be caught by: ) )6(1) The land in respect of which access rights are not exercisable is
    :land- ) ) (a) to the extent that there is on it- ) (i) a building or other structure or works,
    :plant or fixed machinery;

    I think, but am not sure, there is a building on Scottish land.

    Interesting about the plant/machinery - construction site cover ! I got my first job by simply
    walking onto a building site !

    :)You could also concievably be caught also under: ) )9 Conduct excluded from access rights ) ) The
    :conduct which is within this section is- ) ) (e) being on or crossing land for the purpose of
    :taking away, for commercial )purposes or for profit, anything in or on the land; ) )since it is a
    :shopping centre after all ;-)

    A purchase isn't "taking" ! I wonder how this affects "permanently deprive" where shoplifting
    allegations are concerned.
    --
    Comm again, Mike.
     
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