Cycling Permits

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Floyd, May 22, 2003.

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  1. Floyd

    Floyd Guest

    What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths? I've cycled along the towpath of my local
    canal for years but recently saw a notice saying that a cycle permit was required. I've downloaded
    one from the British Waterways website but really don't see the point as I've never been asked for
    one ever and doubt if I will be.

    Has anyone else bothered to apply for one?

    Floyd

    http://www.technofreak.com
     
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  2. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Floyd wrote:
    > What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths? I've cycled along the towpath of my
    > local canal for years but recently saw a notice saying that a cycle permit was required. I've
    > downloaded one from the British Waterways website but really don't see the point as I've never
    > been asked for one ever and doubt if I will be.
    >
    > Has anyone else bothered to apply for one?

    Yes. Around the Nottingham canals to Langley Mill I've been stopped several times by fisherman
    checking that I have a permit. Mostly they seem gobsmacked, firstly that I stop and secondly by the
    fact that they can't then tell me (after they've seen I have a permit) "It's our canal, you
    shouldn't cycle here .. " They always seem to get offended when I point out that the local club only
    has fishing rights, not jurisdiction over the towpath right-of-way .. ;)

    --

    Completed 1687 Seti work units in 12835 hours http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
     
  3. Alex Graham

    Alex Graham Guest

    Floyd wrote:
    > What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths? I've cycled along the towpath of my
    > local canal for years but recently saw a notice saying that a cycle permit was required. I've
    > downloaded one from the British Waterways website but really don't see the point as I've never
    > been asked for one ever and doubt if I will be.

    I've got one but never had to show it to anyone. After ordering from website it took several months
    to arrive. Its probably a good plan cos if you run somones dog over or something it wouldnt be good
    if you dont have one :)

    --
    -Alex

    ----------------------------------
    [email protected] www.westerleycycling.org.uk http://alexpg.ath.cx:3353/cycling.php
    ----------------------------------
     
  4. Danny Colyer

    Danny Colyer Guest

    > Around the Nottingham canals to Langley Mill I've been stopped several times by fisherman checking
    > that I have a permit.

    Do you ask to see their fishing licences?

    --
    Danny Colyer (remove safety to reply) ( http://www.juggler.net/danny ) Recumbent cycle page:
    http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/recumbents/ "He who dares not offend cannot be honest." -
    Thomas Paine
     
  5. [email protected] (Floyd) wrote:
    > What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths?

    The "point" such as it is, is that if you have it can reasonably argued (when something goes wrong)
    that you have seen, read, and agreed to the rules you were told about when you got one; and that if
    you haven't then you ought to have known from the signs that you ought not to have been there. So
    it's prima facie YOUR FAULT.
     
  6. Tenex

    Tenex Guest

    Geraint Jones wrote:
    > [email protected] (Floyd) wrote:
    >> What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths?
    >
    > The "point" such as it is, is that if you have it can reasonably argued (when something goes
    > wrong) that you have seen, read, and agreed to the rules you were told about when you got one; and
    > that if you haven't then you ought to have known from the signs that you ought not to have been
    > there. So it's prima facie YOUR FAULT.

    Not a get out in law as the landowner will be liable under the Occupiers Liability Act 1984 for any
    injury that results while a legitimate user or trespasser is on their land. The point is essentially
    that it is private land and that a lawful user should not enter without consent, I assume the permit
    is intended to regularise the entry upon the land.
     
  7. Floyd

    Floyd Guest

    Agreed you've read the rules but legally what cover do you have if you do have an accident?

    Floyd

    On Thu, 22 May 2003 21:25:48 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Geraint
    Jones) wrote:

    >[email protected] (Floyd) wrote:
    >> What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths?
    >
    >The "point" such as it is, is that if you have it can reasonably argued (when something goes wrong)
    >that you have seen, read, and agreed to the rules you were told about when you got one; and that if
    >you haven't then you ought to have known from the signs that you ought not to have been there. So
    >it's prima facie YOUR FAULT.

    http://www.technofreak.com
     
  8. "Tenex" <[email protected]> wrote: ( Geraint Jones wrote: ) > [email protected] (Floyd) wrote: (
    >> What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths? ) > ( > The "point" such as it is, is
    that if you have it can reasonably ) > argued (when something goes wrong) that you have seen, read,
    and ( > agreed to the rules you were told about when you got one; ) ( Not a get out in law as the
    landowner will be liable under the Occupiers ) Liability Act 1984 for any injury that results while
    a legitimate user or ( trespasser is on their land. The point is essentially that it is private )
    land and that a lawful user should not enter without consent, I assume the ( permit is intended to
    regularise the entry upon the land.

    The rules I was thinking of are the lists of stretches where "cycling is permitted" (and how vastly
    hazardous it is). These permits are not about entry to the land, but about being daft enough to
    cycle alongside deep water. My understanding, since you invoke the Occupiers Liability Act 1984, is
    that the permit shows that "such steps as are reasonable in all the circumstances of the case" have
    been taken to give you notice under section 1 subsection 5 of that Act, discharging the duty of care
    by giving a warning and discouraging the taking of the risk (and so are in fact "a get-out").

    What are the rules about cycling on canal towpaths in Scotland?
     
  9. Chris Street

    Chris Street Guest

    On Thu, 22 May 2003 22:37:36 GMT, [email protected] (Floyd) wrote:

    >Agreed you've read the rules but legally what cover do you have if you do have an accident?

    Being on a stretch of the grand union where cycling is not permitted, I collared a water baliff type
    guy and asked. He said the purpose of the permit was so that access was permissive and a ROW wasn't
    established. He said that in the event of a collision though on a restricted path you really don't
    want a permit - as then you can say that you didn't know that it was restricted and were following
    the rest of the sheep.

    Also the only people who could demand to see permits were wterways staff and bargemasters. Anglers
    could f*** right off in his words (I gather he didn't like them very much in general)
    >
    >Floyd
    >
    >On Thu, 22 May 2003 21:25:48 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Geraint
    >Jones) wrote:
    >
    >>[email protected] (Floyd) wrote:
    >>> What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths?
    >>
    >>The "point" such as it is, is that if you have it can reasonably argued (when something goes
    >>wrong) that you have seen, read, and agreed to the rules you were told about when you got one; and
    >>that if you haven't then you ought to have known from the signs that you ought not to have been
    >>there. So it's prima facie YOUR FAULT.
    >
    >
    >http://www.technofreak.com

    --
    79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other 42% are made up later on. In Warwick -
    looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.
     
  10. Floyd

    Floyd Guest

    I initially asked the question because it's the Union Canal in Scotland that I cycle along. Looks
    like the same applies to all British canals.

    Floyd

    On Thu, 22 May 2003 23:10:09 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Geraint
    Jones) wrote:

    >
    >What are the rules about cycling on canal towpaths in Scotland?

    http://www.technofreak.com
     
  11. Tenex

    Tenex Guest

    Geraint Jones wrote:
    > (and so are in fact "a get-out").

    It would be a matter to be determined by a court on the basis of the evidence (including eg
    was regular maintenance / inspection carried out, etc) and it is far from the assured position
    they seek.
     
  12. Rupert Smith

    Rupert Smith Guest

    I've noticed these signs before, but I'm afraid I have ignored them and never been stopped. What
    puzzles me now though is that the Kennet and Avon canal towpath is now an NCN route (4), so surely
    as such there cannot be a permit scheme in operation? Maybe they've taken the permit signs down and
    I just haven't noticed.

    Rupert

    "Floyd" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths? I've cycled along the towpath of my
    > local canal for years but recently saw a notice saying that a cycle permit was required. I've
    > downloaded one from the British Waterways website but really don't see the point as I've never
    > been asked for one ever and doubt if I will be.
    >
    > Has anyone else bothered to apply for one?
    >
    > Floyd
    >
    > http://www.technofreak.com
     
  13. [email protected] (Floyd) wrote:
    ( Iinitially asked the question because it's the Union Canal in ) Scotland that I cycle along.
    Looks like the same applies to all ( British canals.

    Yes, The reason I asked about Scotland is not that BWB make any distinction, but that Tenex invoked
    the Occupiers Liability Act 1984 which only applies in England and Wales. There is a different duty
    of care under the Occupiers Liability Act (Scotland).

    Oh, dear, you expect me to know the date now don't you. I don't, but I think it's earlier. 1960s
    sometime; it corresponds to but is later than the "real" Occupiers Liability Act in England and
    Wales, which is the same age as I am.
     
  14. Jose Marques

    Jose Marques Guest

    On Thu, 22 May 2003, Alex Graham wrote:

    > I've got one but never had to show it to anyone. After ordering from website it took several
    > months to arrive.

    Just went to the Britsh Waterways web site. After you've entered details the "permit" is a
    downloadable PDF.

    --
    Jose Marques
     
  15. Tenex

    Tenex Guest

    Geraint Jones wrote:
    > Oh, dear, you expect me to know the date now don't you. I don't, but I think it's earlier. 1960s
    > sometime; it corresponds to but is later than the "real" Occupiers Liability Act in England and
    > Wales, which is the same age as I am.

    I'm not sure what a "real" Occupiers Liability Act is (?) but there are two of that title in force
    and relevant to England & Wales namely 1957 and 1984.
     
  16. "Rupert Smith" <[email protected]> wrote: ( I've noticed these signs before, but I'm
    afraid I have ignored them and ) never been stopped. What puzzles me now though is that the Kennet
    and Avon ( canal towpath is now an NCN route (4), so surely as such there cannot be a ) permit
    scheme in operation? Maybe they've taken the permit signs down and I ( just haven't noticed.

    When the K&A was opened up it went from being a payment-for-permit-required to being a
    no-free-permit-required, which at the time was Exceedingly Odd[TM].
     
  17. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Danny Colyer wrote:

    >> Around the Nottingham canals to Langley Mill I've been stopped several times by fisherman
    >> checking that I have a permit.
    >
    > Do you ask to see their fishing licences?

    Oh yes .. ;)

    I ask for their rod licences, day ticket and or fishing club membership card etc etc .. but only
    when they stop me. I wouldn't presume to ask any fisherman unless he's stopped me first. I can't
    think why they feel they must stop cyclists . ..

    --

    Completed 1698 Seti work units in 12907 hours http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
     
  18. Stephen \

    Stephen \ Guest

    "Floyd" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths? I've cycled along the towpath of my
    > local canal for years but recently saw a notice saying that a cycle permit was required. I've
    > downloaded one from the British Waterways website but really don't see the point as I've never
    > been asked for one ever and doubt if I will be.
    >
    > Has anyone else bothered to apply for one?
    >
    > Floyd
    >
    > http://www.technofreak.com

    Got stopped once on the Grand Union near Southall by a cop and a waterways official with a little
    barrier type thing. They were *amazed* when I produced one.
     
  19. Tim Woodall

    Tim Woodall Guest

    On Fri, 23 May 2003 15:20:10 +0100, Stephen (aka steford)
    <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > "Floyd" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >> What's the point of the cycling permit for canal towpaths? I've cycled along the towpath of my
    >> local canal for years but recently saw a notice saying that a cycle permit was required. I've
    >> downloaded one from the British Waterways website but really don't see the point as I've never
    >> been asked for one ever and doubt if I will be.
    >>
    >> Has anyone else bothered to apply for one?
    >>
    >> Floyd
    >>
    >> http://www.technofreak.com
    >
    > Got stopped once on the Grand Union near Southall by a cop and a waterways official with a little
    > barrier type thing. They were *amazed* when I produced one.
    >
    I've just downloaded one (pdf). It says you should carry it with you - will a floppy disk do? :)

    Tim.

    --
    God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.

    http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/
     
  20. "Tenex" <[email protected]> wrote: ( Geraint Jones wrote: ) > Oh, dear, you expect me to know the date
    now don't you. I don't, but ( > I think it's earlier. 1960s sometime; it corresponds to but is later
    ) > than the "real" Occupiers Liability Act in England and Wales, which ( > is the same age as I am.
    ) ( I'm not sure what a "real" Occupiers Liability Act is (?) but there are two ) of that title in
    force and relevant to England & Wales namely 1957 and 1984.

    The "real" one, of course, is the 1957 one, which codified the common law duty of care to people on
    your land with your permission; it was modified by the 1984 act to add a duty of care others whether
    or not they were lawfully present. The Scottish Act is, I think, 1960 and the duty of care under
    that, whilst (I think) it extends to everybody including trespassers, is "reasonable in all the
    circumstances of the case". (So steamingly reasonable, Scottish law.) I don't know whether a court
    would consider it reasonable of a landowner not to prevent a trespasser from harming himself by
    doing something that was unwise in the first place. I think that means that whilst in England and
    Wales the BWB has a duty to try to tell you that you would be stupid to cycle on some of its
    towpaths, in Scotland it might not have to. I don't suppose we need to pursue legal position as it
    currently is in Northern Ireland since there are no BWB waterways there.

    I do wish I had not got into this. I'm off for a ride, me.
     
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