Cyclist demographics?



Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:

: Phew, I was beginning to think it was just me and was resigning myself
: to the fact that I must be a computer numpty.

The last time I went to the UK Unix Users Group Linux conference, there
were a large number of apple laptops around.

A reasonable number were dual booting linux and OS X mind.

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
The struggle of people against power is the struggle
of memory against forgetting - Milan Kundera
 
Arthur Clune wrote:
> Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : Phew, I was beginning to think it was just me and was resigning myself
> : to the fact that I must be a computer numpty.
>
> The last time I went to the UK Unix Users Group Linux conference, there
> were a large number of apple laptops around.
>
> A reasonable number were dual booting linux and OS X mind.


And in my field (bioinformatics) the proportion of macs has skyrocketed
since the introduction of OS X. I do have linux running on an old
laptop and use it extensively for compute. Just use Windows when I
absolutely have to.

...d
 
Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>, dave
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>
>>I thought our results were interesting. They were not told they were
>>actually testing linuxx. When asked later all 3 staff members said
>>they would resist linux being installed as it was too hard to use.

>
>
> Bizarre, isn't it? An image has built up of Linux as hard to use (which
> may have been true ten years ago, but certainly isn't now) and people
> believe that far more than they believe their own direct experience.
>


YEah .. It takes me a morning to get a windows XP box up and running
with everything current.. and I have far greater resources than most

But no linux instal these days takes more than one reboot. and 20
minutes or so to get something totally usable. I spend at least a
couple of days a month recovering data from totally unbootable windows
machines usually bought down by stealthware of one sort or another.

We have issues with software vendows with their **** software all the
time, and can we get anyone to try linux? Nope. But every critical
system we have runs on it.
 
Arthur Clune wrote:
> Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : Phew, I was beginning to think it was just me and was resigning myself
> : to the fact that I must be a computer numpty.
>
> The last time I went to the UK Unix Users Group Linux conference, there
> were a large number of apple laptops around.
>
> A reasonable number were dual booting linux and OS X mind.
>


My mac boots linux and system 9.. its too old for X :(
 
Tony Raven <[email protected]> writes:

> Bringing it back on topic I have a picture gleaned from the interweb
> of a touring bike with dynamo powered Libretto mounted on the
> handlebars running GPS mapping software. Of course you can now do
> that on your mobile phone but in its day it was impressive if not
> slightly strange


I did something like that for tracking rockets a few years back.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2 UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527 LSMR
 
"Ambrose Nankivell" <[email protected]> writes:

> And wireless card drivers won't compile, and when they do work, they
> won't work with the DNS server on your router.
>
> IME.
>
> I tried and I tried, but abandoned ship after a few months.


Damn, I could have sworn this was a laptop with no ethernet cable in
the side of it ;)

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2 UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527 LSMR
 
Tony Raven <[email protected]> writes:

> As I've said, I am sure the Linuxistas here could get it working but
> it requires gaining a level of knowledge that I don't have time to
> get. IME to say Knoppix or other distros simply works out the box
> is misleading. YMMV.


IME you're exceptional. I've known lots of people who've tried Linux
from 20 year VAX/mainframe veterans to schoolkids who've only used
gaming consoles before and none have needed more than a few pointers
to get a working Linux system.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2 UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527 LSMR
 
Tony Raven <[email protected]> writes:

> Chris Eilbeck wrote:
>> The LAN Express card is supported under Linux2.6. You just need a
>> more modern distribution.

>
> It was about 8 month to a year ago I tried so I'll look again when I
> have a moment.


Note that Knoppix boots a 2.4 kernel by default but you can just pick
a 2.6 one if you prefer. I think Ubuntu and Kubuntu use 2.6 by default.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2 UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527 LSMR
 
>> Bringing it back on topic I have a picture gleaned from the interweb
>> of a touring bike with dynamo powered Libretto mounted on the
>> handlebars running GPS mapping software. Of course you can now do
>> that on your mobile phone but in its day it was impressive if not
>> slightly strange

>
> I did something like that for tracking rockets a few years back.


Did you follow the rockets on your bike, or fire them from your bike?
Either way, I'm impressed.
 
Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
> Arthur Clune wrote:
>> Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
>> : gaining a level of knowledge that I don't have time to get. IME to say
>> : Knoppix or other distros simply works out the box is misleading. YMMV.
>>
>> That's a fair summary. Works for a limited value of works :)
>>
>> Arthur (typing this on a Fedora Core linux box)

>
> Phew, I was beginning to think it was just me and was resigning myself
> to the fact that I must be a computer numpty.


The good Linux distributions have a good chance of supporting
everything out of the box these days. I'm told that the
multi-millionaire behind the Ubuntu distribution got them to buy every
PC and laptop in Best-Buy and made sure that it worked on all of
them...

But that doesn't mean that *all* hardware is perfectly supported out
of the box & if you happen to have something that isn't then that's
hardly your fault!

(If you want to try again, then Ubuntu seems to be the best
user-focused Linux distribution around at the moment. If anyone wants
an official Ubuntu CD, then I've got one kicking around. First to
email me with their address gets it in the post...)

cheers, Phil

--
http://www.kantaka.co.uk/ .oOo. public key: http://www.kantaka.co.uk/gpg.txt
 
Chris Eilbeck <[email protected]> wrote:
> Tony Raven <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> As I've said, I am sure the Linuxistas here could get it working but
>> it requires gaining a level of knowledge that I don't have time to
>> get. IME to say Knoppix or other distros simply works out the box
>> is misleading. YMMV.

>
> IME you're exceptional. I've known lots of people who've tried Linux
> from 20 year VAX/mainframe veterans to schoolkids who've only used
> gaming consoles before and none have needed more than a few pointers
> to get a working Linux system.


I think that's a bit harsh. I wouldn't expect someone who's never
tried linux to get very far if it fails to give a working display on
first boot. If all they wanted to do was try it out, then they'd be
entirely justified in giving up at that point!

Now, if they really wanted to get it going, then I'm sure lots of
linux-types would be happy to help, but that might be more effort than
the original poster really wanted to exert when they were only trying
things out experimentally in the first place.

Phil

--
http://www.kantaka.co.uk/ .oOo. public key: http://www.kantaka.co.uk/gpg.txt
 
in message <[email protected]>, Phil Armstrong
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Chris Eilbeck <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Tony Raven <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>> As I've said, I am sure the Linuxistas here could get it working but
>>> it requires gaining a level of knowledge that I don't have time to
>>> get. IME to say Knoppix or other distros simply works out the box
>>> is misleading. YMMV.

>>
>> IME you're exceptional. I've known lots of people who've tried Linux
>> from 20 year VAX/mainframe veterans to schoolkids who've only used
>> gaming consoles before and none have needed more than a few pointers
>> to get a working Linux system.

>
> I think that's a bit harsh. I wouldn't expect someone who's never
> tried linux to get very far if it fails to give a working display on
> first boot.


Yehbut, it doesn't. I've been using (and installing) Linux on literally
hundreds of machines since kernel 0.99pl11 in 1993 or 1994, and
I've /never/ seen that.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; not so much a refugee from reality, more a bogus
;; asylum seeker
 
Chris Eilbeck wrote:
> Tony Raven <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
>>Chris Eilbeck wrote:
>>
>>>The LAN Express card is supported under Linux2.6. You just need a
>>>more modern distribution.

>>
>>It was about 8 month to a year ago I tried so I'll look again when I
>>have a moment.

>
>
> Note that Knoppix boots a 2.4 kernel by default but you can just pick
> a 2.6 one if you prefer. I think Ubuntu and Kubuntu use 2.6 by default.
>
> Chris



I havnt looked at Ubuntu yet. Every time I try and download it fails..
Bugger. Will make a point today.
 
dave <[email protected]> writes:

> I havnt looked at Ubuntu yet. Every time I try and download it
> fails.. Bugger. Will make a point today.


By all accounts it's very good.

Chris
--
Chris Eilbeck
MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk/
UKRA #1108 Level 2 UYB
Tripoli UK Member #9527 LSMR
 
On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 22:33:57 +0100,
Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Yehbut, it doesn't. I've been using (and installing) Linux on literally
> hundreds of machines since kernel 0.99pl11 in 1993 or 1994, and
> I've /never/ seen that.
>

I've got a 14" b&w monitor that will only do 640x480 (at I forget what
refresh rate). None of the modern commercial installers will work on it
without tweaking. (No idea if windows would install using it)

I've also got a 12Mb compaq 486 laptop. The last distribution that I got
to install was redhat 5.1 (currently running Debian Sarge but it's not
easy to get there)

(I doubt that windows would install either)

I have my own installer which does a minimal (debian) install remotely
- I send the disk to someone who needs debian installed, they put the
disk in and bootup to CD. I then login remotely and install everything
from the CD (and from the internet once the basic system is installed to
disk)
The "installer" requires no more than 8Mb of ram.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/
 
Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>, Phil Armstrong
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>
>>Chris Eilbeck <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Tony Raven <[email protected]> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>As I've said, I am sure the Linuxistas here could get it working but
>>>>it requires gaining a level of knowledge that I don't have time to
>>>>get. IME to say Knoppix or other distros simply works out the box
>>>>is misleading. YMMV.
>>>
>>>IME you're exceptional. I've known lots of people who've tried Linux
>>>from 20 year VAX/mainframe veterans to schoolkids who've only used
>>>gaming consoles before and none have needed more than a few pointers
>>>to get a working Linux system.

>>
>>I think that's a bit harsh. I wouldn't expect someone who's never
>>tried linux to get very far if it fails to give a working display on
>>first boot.

>
>
> Yehbut, it doesn't. I've been using (and installing) Linux on literally
> hundreds of machines since kernel 0.99pl11 in 1993 or 1994, and
> I've /never/ seen that.
>


I have seen it once. With mandrake.. And on a dodgy machine with an old
monitor. So it does happen. But hell it probably happens with windoze
as well. Except the machine was too old to run anything post 98. ANd
it was the current mandrake.
 
Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>, Phil Armstrong wrote
>> I think that's a bit harsh. I wouldn't expect someone who's never
>> tried linux to get very far if it fails to give a working display on
>> first boot.

>
> Yehbut, it doesn't. I've been using (and installing) Linux on literally
> hundreds of machines since kernel 0.99pl11 in 1993 or 1994, and
> I've /never/ seen that.


It did *for him* and that's all that matters.

I've seen the framebuffer driver fail on a laptop install before. Of
course, I knew enough to boot using just the straight VGA support & no
X so that I could configure all that stuff by hand later after the
initial install. A total newbie isn't going to have the knowledge to
even know what to try in order to fix things.

Phil

--
http://www.kantaka.co.uk/ .oOo. public key: http://www.kantaka.co.uk/gpg.txt
 
:> Chris Eilbeck <[email protected]> wrote:
:>>
:>> IME you're exceptional. I've known lots of people who've tried Linux
:>> from 20 year VAX/mainframe veterans to schoolkids who've only used
:>> gaming consoles before and none have needed more than a few pointers
:>> to get a working Linux system.

My experience is that current modern distros (Fedora Core, Umbuntu) work very
well indeed on desktop machines. The problems that are still there are in
laptops, and especially the bleeding edge ones.

I'd expect most stuff to work out of the box on a laptop thats > 18 months
old these days. I'd expect a world of pain on a ultra-tiny bleeding edge
laptop.

Things have improved a lot in the last year: much better ACPI, suspend to
disk in the mainline kernel, better wifi support etc etc, but it's still not
perfect.

To take an example: we had in our office two supposedly identical Tosh laptops.
On one everything except sound worked under Debian, including suspend to ram.
On the other, sound worked but suspend to ram couldn't wake the screen on
un-suspend.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
The struggle of people against power is the struggle
of memory against forgetting - Milan Kundera
 
Chris Eilbeck wrote:
> dave <[email protected]> writes:
>
>
>>I havnt looked at Ubuntu yet. Every time I try and download it
>>fails.. Bugger. Will make a point today.

>
>
> By all accounts it's very good.
>
> Chris


Yep. Runs better than the Knoppix did on the same machine. Absolutely
brilliant and so easy to drive Anywone who thinks this is harder than
windows has some issues.

After that. I pulled down the mac version to install on my lappy but
it doesnt want to boot from the cd Will have another go at that tomorrow .
 
In article <[email protected]>, Phil Armstrong wrote:
>Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Arthur Clune wrote:
>>> Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> : gaining a level of knowledge that I don't have time to get. IME to say
>>> : Knoppix or other distros simply works out the box is misleading. YMMV.
>>>
>>> That's a fair summary. Works for a limited value of works :)
>>> Arthur (typing this on a Fedora Core linux box)

>>
>> Phew, I was beginning to think it was just me and was resigning myself
>> to the fact that I must be a computer numpty.


Bad luck rather than numptiness I suspect. Most of the people it just
worked for would be equally stuck if it hadn't just worked, but on their
hardware it did.


>The good Linux distributions have a good chance of supporting
>everything out of the box these days. I'm told that the
>multi-millionaire behind the Ubuntu distribution got them to buy every
>PC and laptop in Best-Buy and made sure that it worked on all of
>them...


That doesn't help the people who want something to work on an old 486.
(And Ubuntu possibly isn't the distribution for them.) Most Linux
distributions seem to mostly work out of the box on most hardware these
days (at least on x86 - finding a drive controller for my Amiga that
works with Linux/m68k would be another matter if I really cared), but
there will always be exceptions.

Of course installing Windows on a laptop can be just as bad, it's just
that almost always someone else has already done it.