Cyclist shot in airgun attack

[Stuart Lamble]

[much snipping ensues]

Guys, if this turns into a gun control thread, expect a few killfiles to
start getting a wee bit bigger.

Or in other words: you are getting _way_ off topic. If you really want
to keep discussing the pros and cons of carrying a gun whilst cycling,
would you mind taking it to email? Thank you.

--
My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".

 

[qtq]

L'acrobat wrote:
> Recoil that will take you off a bike with, say, a 9mm?
>
> Not all pistols have huge recoil.

Recoil is fine when you're firing dead-ahead, but almost any amount of
recoil will tip you off if you're trying to fire broadsides on a pass.

I wouldn't want to fire anything bigger than a .22 singlehanded, and
firing two-hands while trying to balance no-hands is also not something
I'd like to do on a bike. Horses are significantly different because
they'll take active steps to keep you upright, unlike bicycles.

The only sort of gun I'd ever want to carry on a bike is a semi/full
5.56 rifle with the barrel inside a horizontal top tube, and a nice
long magazine in front of the seat tube (can you make a bullpup with
that little room behind the receiver?). Then you can take strafing
runs (similar to early airplanes) at cars, with known targetting (very
hard to miss) and about as much recoil as hitting a pothole or
speedbump. (10g * 600m/s = 6 kg m/s; given a body/bike mass of say
80kg, that's only a 2km/h slowdown per bullet.)

[Note to Stuart: haven't you ever seen
http://www.zippynet.com/pages/funny/autoweap.htm
? I would have thought it was compulsory reading in your profession.]
-A

 

[L'acrobat]

"qtq" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> L'acrobat wrote:
>> Recoil that will take you off a bike with, say, a 9mm?
>>
>> Not all pistols have huge recoil.
>
> Recoil is fine when you're firing dead-ahead, but almost any amount of
> recoil will tip you off if you're trying to fire broadsides on a pass.

Rubbish.



>
> I wouldn't want to fire anything bigger than a .22 singlehanded, and
> firing two-hands while trying to balance no-hands is also not something
> I'd like to do on a bike. Horses are significantly different because
> they'll take active steps to keep you upright, unlike bicycles.

9mm (as one example) is not a problem single handed.

Again, you vastly overestimate recoil force - if the force transmitted to a
horse (from firing a gun) was so great that several hundred kilos of horse
had to act to prevent tipping over, that force throw the firer off the
horse.

Didn't you people do ANY physics in high school?

I blame TV.

>
> The only sort of gun I'd ever want to carry on a bike is a semi/full
> 5.56 rifle with the barrel inside a horizontal top tube, and a nice
> long magazine in front of the seat tube (can you make a bullpup with
> that little room behind the receiver?).

Yes, that is the point of a bullpup.

I'd happily fire an M16 left or right of axis, one handed (no accuracy, but
little recoil), short bursts you'd be fine.

> Then you can take strafing
> runs (similar to early airplanes) at cars, with known targetting (very
> hard to miss) and about as much recoil as hitting a pothole or
> speedbump. (10g * 600m/s = 6 kg m/s; given a body/bike mass of say
> 80kg, that's only a 2km/h slowdown per bullet.)

10 gram bullets? what sort of 5.56mm weapon are you thinking of? - the NATO
SS109 5.56 Round weighs 4.01 grams and muzzle velocity is 910 m/s.

 

[qtq]

L'acrobat wrote:
> "qtq" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > L'acrobat wrote:
> >> Recoil that will take you off a bike with, say, a 9mm?
> >>
> >> Not all pistols have huge recoil.
> >
> > Recoil is fine when you're firing dead-ahead, but almost any amount
of
> > recoil will tip you off if you're trying to fire broadsides on a
pass.
>
> Rubbish.
>
>
>
> >
> > I wouldn't want to fire anything bigger than a .22 singlehanded,
and
> > firing two-hands while trying to balance no-hands is also not
something
> > I'd like to do on a bike. Horses are significantly different
because
> > they'll take active steps to keep you upright, unlike bicycles.
>
> 9mm (as one example) is not a problem single handed.
>
> Again, you vastly overestimate recoil force - if the force
transmitted to a
> horse (from firing a gun) was so great that several hundred kilos of
horse
> had to act to prevent tipping over, that force throw the firer off
the
> horse.
>
> Didn't you people do ANY physics in high school?
>
> I blame TV.
>
> >
> > The only sort of gun I'd ever want to carry on a bike is a
semi/full
> > 5.56 rifle with the barrel inside a horizontal top tube, and a nice
> > long magazine in front of the seat tube (can you make a bullpup
with
> > that little room behind the receiver?).
>
> Yes, that is the point of a bullpup.
>
> I'd happily fire an M16 left or right of axis, one handed (no
accuracy, but
> little recoil), short bursts you'd be fine.
>
> > Then you can take strafing
> > runs (similar to early airplanes) at cars, with known targetting
(very
> > hard to miss) and about as much recoil as hitting a pothole or
> > speedbump. (10g * 600m/s = 6 kg m/s; given a body/bike mass of
say
> > 80kg, that's only a 2km/h slowdown per bullet.)
>
> 10 gram bullets? what sort of 5.56mm weapon are you thinking of? -
the NATO
> SS109 5.56 Round weighs 4.01 grams and muzzle velocity is 910 m/s.

 

[qtq]

L'acrobat wrote:
> Again, you vastly overestimate recoil force - if the force
transmitted to a
> horse (from firing a gun) was so great that several hundred kilos of
horse
> had to act to prevent tipping over, that force throw the firer off
the
> horse.

It takes much less force to tip a cyclist over than a horse rider.

Ever had problems controlling the bike one-handed in gusty winds? What
about on a horse?

 

[Tamyka Bell]

L'acrobat wrote:
>
> "Tamyka Bell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> >
> > Now how are those American ladies going to fire their weapons without
> > falling off their bikes? R-E-C-O-I-L...? If they have to dismount
> > anyway, it's probably too late... they might as well learn how to punch
> > and run.
>
> Recoil that will take you off a bike with, say, a 9mm?
>
> Not all pistols have huge recoil.
>
> You watch too much TV.

I look at my TV, but all I see is me. It's not plugged in.

 

[L'acrobat]

"qtq" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> L'acrobat wrote:
>> Again, you vastly overestimate recoil force - if the force
> transmitted to a
>> horse (from firing a gun) was so great that several hundred kilos of
> horse
>> had to act to prevent tipping over, that force throw the firer off
> the
>> horse.
>
> It takes much less force to tip a cyclist over than a horse rider.


Did you do any physics in high school? we are talking about pistols, not
light artillery.

the rider will receive the same piffling amount of force in both cases, the
mount doesn't need to compensate, in fact the horse won't even notice the
recoil, if the recoil transmitted was enough that the horse had to
compensate, then the rider would receive major injuries from simply firing
the weapon.

Remember you are talking about around 550kgs of animal and you think it has
to brace against that force? 9mm bullet = 8 grams, M/V = 381m/s - horse =
550kgs, how far do you think it will push the horse? it won't even push an
80kg cyclist on their bike.

Of course you are the one assuming that the only time you will be attacked
is ON your bike, in most cases an attacker - robber, rapist, idiot
assaulting etc will block your path or force you off the bike anyway.

>
> Ever had problems controlling the bike one-handed in gusty winds? What
> about on a horse?
>

No, I've not had any problems in either case.

Its also worth noting that "gusty" winds impart significantly more force
than a 9mm pistol, but keep trying.

 

[Tamyka Bell]

qtq wrote:
>
> L'acrobat wrote:
> > Again, you vastly overestimate recoil force - if the force
> transmitted to a
> > horse (from firing a gun) was so great that several hundred kilos of
> horse
> > had to act to prevent tipping over, that force throw the firer off
> the
> > horse.
>
> It takes much less force to tip a cyclist over than a horse rider.
>
> Ever had problems controlling the bike one-handed in gusty winds? What
> about on a horse?

Perhaps L'Acrobat has studied high school physics but no functional
anatomy?

I wouldn't carry a firearm on the streets because that would be f*&ked,
it's not a goddamn war zone out there, it's a beatiful world where most
people deserve to live and those that don't deserve to live, deserve to
be shown how to love their lives so that they do deserve to live, and I
may sound like a weird hippy (not confused with hippy) but HELLO do you
really want to go around shooting people? If someone nearly hits you so
you shoot their tyres out, what do you think they'll do next time they
see a cyclist? Make sure they're on target? Take
cyclist-target-practice?

What is with the violence obsession? I'm capable of beating the **** out
of people and I know it. But I've never struck someone on the street,
despite being held at knifepoint TWICE I was not scared and scared them
off instead. Yes, small female, scared off three men with knives, later
scared off a drug-crazed guy with a big rusty knife. Why? I didn't want
to take their **** so I didn't.

Carrying a firearm in civvy street does not make you powerful, it just
shows the world you've accepted you're a VICTIM. Cycle and be happy
instead.

T

 

[hippy]

"L'acrobat" <husky.65@delete_me.bigpond.com> wrote
> Its also worth noting that "gusty" winds impart significantly more force
> than a 9mm pistol, but keep trying.

What about some kind of RPG/ground-to-ground missile?
Reckon I'd have enough time after being put into the ground
to set it up and send a rocket down the road after the 4wd,
taxi, tradey, p-plater that gave me grief?
How accurate are they, considering the post-NDE adrenalin
rush? Why are you still arguing about bikes and recoil.. how
likely do you think this 'using a gun in a post-bike-road-rage
incident' really is?

hippy
NDE - Near Death Experience

 

[Terry Collins]

L'acrobat wrote:

> Remember you are talking about around 550kgs of animal

Since we are OT anyway.

How much (kgs) manure does a horse produce each day?
And how much does an elephant weigh?

SWMBO and I were watching the Jungle bit on ABC last night and both
caught the 45 figure, but I heard kilo and she heard tonne. Just
wondering if I should offer to take away the manure for free next time
the circus comes to town and weather I can do this by bicycle and
trailer { (back on topic)

 

[hippy]

"Terry Collins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Since we are OT anyway.
>
> How much (kgs) manure does a horse produce each day?
> And how much does an elephant weigh?

"An average 1,000-pound horse produces 9 tons of manure
a year containing valuable fertilizer elements."
from: http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/livestk/01219.html

"An approximately 20-year-old Asian elephant cow weighs 3500 - 4500 kg
on average, and measures around 2.6 metres at the back. An elephant bull
weighs about 5000 - 6500 kg and measures around 3 metres at the back.
African elephants are larger and weigh more. An elephant cow measuring
around 3 metres at the shoulders will weigh around 4000 - 5000 kg.
An African elephant bull, however, weighs around 6000 - 7000 kg and
measures around 3.2 metres at the shoulders."
from: http://www.upali.ch/weight_en.html

> SWMBO and I were watching the Jungle bit on ABC last night and both
> caught the 45 figure, but I heard kilo and she heard tonne. Just
> wondering if I should offer to take away the manure for free next time
> the circus comes to town and weather I can do this by bicycle and
> trailer { (back on topic)

Tam's visiting? I didn't know she had elephants...

hippy
- should be doing something more productive than turd research

 

[L'acrobat]

"hippy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "L'acrobat" <husky.65@delete_me.bigpond.com> wrote
>> Its also worth noting that "gusty" winds impart significantly more force
>> than a 9mm pistol, but keep trying.
>
> What about some kind of RPG/ground-to-ground missile?

an RPG (Rocket Propelled Grenade) would work fine.

 

[L'acrobat]

"Tamyka Bell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> qtq wrote:
>>
>> L'acrobat wrote:
>> > Again, you vastly overestimate recoil force - if the force
>> transmitted to a
>> > horse (from firing a gun) was so great that several hundred kilos of
>> horse
>> > had to act to prevent tipping over, that force throw the firer off
>> the
>> > horse.
>>
>> It takes much less force to tip a cyclist over than a horse rider.
>>
>> Ever had problems controlling the bike one-handed in gusty winds? What
>> about on a horse?
>
> Perhaps L'Acrobat has studied high school physics but no functional
> anatomy?

I see you have still not given up on the massive recoil gun. do some
reading.

>
> I wouldn't carry a firearm on the streets because that would be f*&ked,
> it's not a goddamn war zone out there, it's a beatiful world where most
> people deserve to live and those that don't deserve to live, deserve to
> be shown how to love their lives so that they do deserve to live, and I
> may sound like a weird hippy (not confused with hippy) but HELLO do you
> really want to go around shooting people? If someone nearly hits you so
> you shoot their tyres out, what do you think they'll do next time they
> see a cyclist? Make sure they're on target? Take
> cyclist-target-practice?

Not if you shoot the driver in self defence.

>
> What is with the violence obsession? I'm capable of beating the **** out
> of people and I know it. But I've never struck someone on the street,
> despite being held at knifepoint TWICE I was not scared and scared them
> off instead. Yes, small female, scared off three men with knives, later
> scared off a drug-crazed guy with a big rusty knife. Why? I didn't want
> to take their **** so I didn't.
>
> Carrying a firearm in civvy street does not make you powerful, it just
> shows the world you've accepted you're a VICTIM. Cycle and be happy
> instead.

Ah, the warm fluffy world you live in. not everyone lives such a nice
delusion.

 

[L'acrobat]

"Tamyka Bell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> L'acrobat wrote:
>>
>> "Tamyka Bell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> >
>> > Now how are those American ladies going to fire their weapons without
>> > falling off their bikes? R-E-C-O-I-L...? If they have to dismount
>> > anyway, it's probably too late... they might as well learn how to punch
>> > and run.
>>
>> Recoil that will take you off a bike with, say, a 9mm?
>>
>> Not all pistols have huge recoil.
>>
>> You watch too much TV.
>
> I look at my TV, but all I see is me. It's not plugged in.

Then I have no way to explain your sheer ignorance.

 

[Tamyka Bell]

hippy wrote:
>
> "Terry Collins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Since we are OT anyway.
> >
> > How much (kgs) manure does a horse produce each day?
> > And how much does an elephant weigh?
>
> "An average 1,000-pound horse produces 9 tons of manure
> a year containing valuable fertilizer elements."
> from: http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/livestk/01219.html
>
> "An approximately 20-year-old Asian elephant cow weighs 3500 - 4500 kg
> on average, and measures around 2.6 metres at the back. An elephant bull
> weighs about 5000 - 6500 kg and measures around 3 metres at the back.
> African elephants are larger and weigh more. An elephant cow measuring
> around 3 metres at the shoulders will weigh around 4000 - 5000 kg.
> An African elephant bull, however, weighs around 6000 - 7000 kg and
> measures around 3.2 metres at the shoulders."
> from: http://www.upali.ch/weight_en.html
>
> > SWMBO and I were watching the Jungle bit on ABC last night and both
> > caught the 45 figure, but I heard kilo and she heard tonne. Just
> > wondering if I should offer to take away the manure for free next time
> > the circus comes to town and weather I can do this by bicycle and
> > trailer { (back on topic)
>
> Tam's visiting? I didn't know she had elephants...

If I could get some elephants I would be able to tour Australia... I
could come up with some new aerial routine incorporating the trunk.

T

PS I hope hippy's research into poo does not lead onto further violent
discussion of e.g. IED's

PPS oh everyone make sure you come to the Tasmanian Circus festival in
february!!!!

 

[Tamyka Bell]

L'acrobat wrote:
>
> "Tamyka Bell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > L'acrobat wrote:
> >>
> >> "Tamyka Bell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Now how are those American ladies going to fire their weapons without
> >> > falling off their bikes? R-E-C-O-I-L...? If they have to dismount
> >> > anyway, it's probably too late... they might as well learn how to punch
> >> > and run.
> >>
> >> Recoil that will take you off a bike with, say, a 9mm?
> >>
> >> Not all pistols have huge recoil.
> >>
> >> You watch too much TV.
> >
> > I look at my TV, but all I see is me. It's not plugged in.
>
> Then I have no way to explain your sheer ignorance.

Sure you do. Look deeper... You'll find the answer... Hey, maybe you can
find it on google.

 

[Tamyka Bell]

L'acrobat wrote:
>
> "Tamyka Bell" wrote
> > Carrying a firearm in civvy street does not make you powerful, it just
> > shows the world you've accepted you're a VICTIM. Cycle and be happy
> > instead.
>
> Ah, the warm fluffy world you live in. not everyone lives such a nice
> delusion.

It's not a delusion. It's not warm and fluffy. It works.

I just don't think I'm more important than other people, or that I have
more of a right to live than they do. Or that I have the right to kill
other people.

But that's okay dude, you go and support people reacting with lethal
force. I'll go hug a tree or whatever it is that you think I do for a
living.

T

 

[Theo Bekkers]

Tamyka Bell wrote:
> L'acrobat wrote:

>> Ah, the warm fluffy world you live in. not everyone lives such a nice
>> delusion.
>
> It's not a delusion. It's not warm and fluffy. It works.

I'm with you.

> I just don't think I'm more important than other people, or that I
> have more of a right to live than they do. Or that I have the right
> to kill other people.
>
> But that's okay dude, you go and support people reacting with lethal
> force. I'll go hug a tree or whatever it is that you think I do for a
> living.

I saw a lot of trees late last night but they weren't the hugging kind. Most
of them were on fire and we couldn't put them out. I hope we contained it
enough for today's 37º temps and 30 m/h winds.

Theo

 

[Tamyka Bell]

Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> Tamyka Bell wrote:
> > L'acrobat wrote:
>
> >> Ah, the warm fluffy world you live in. not everyone lives such a nice
> >> delusion.
> >
> > It's not a delusion. It's not warm and fluffy. It works.
>
> I'm with you.
>
> > I just don't think I'm more important than other people, or that I
> > have more of a right to live than they do. Or that I have the right
> > to kill other people.
> >
> > But that's okay dude, you go and support people reacting with lethal
> > force. I'll go hug a tree or whatever it is that you think I do for a
> > living.
>
> I saw a lot of trees late last night but they weren't the hugging kind. Most
> of them were on fire and we couldn't put them out. I hope we contained it
> enough for today's 37º temps and 30 m/h winds.
>
> Theo

That's awful Theo, where are you? I haven't read about fires in the
news.

Tam

 

[L'acrobat]

"Tamyka Bell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> L'acrobat wrote:
>>
>> "Tamyka Bell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > L'acrobat wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "Tamyka Bell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >> news:[email protected]...
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Now how are those American ladies going to fire their weapons
>> >> > without
>> >> > falling off their bikes? R-E-C-O-I-L...? If they have to dismount
>> >> > anyway, it's probably too late... they might as well learn how to
>> >> > punch
>> >> > and run.
>> >>
>> >> Recoil that will take you off a bike with, say, a 9mm?
>> >>
>> >> Not all pistols have huge recoil.
>> >>
>> >> You watch too much TV.
>> >
>> > I look at my TV, but all I see is me. It's not plugged in.
>>
>> Then I have no way to explain your sheer ignorance.
>
> Sure you do. Look deeper... You'll find the answer... Hey, maybe you can
> find it on google.

Willful stupidity perhaps?