Cyclists are Victims of the Law of the Jungle

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by donquijote1954, Feb 5, 2005.

  1. '"In Delray Beach we have killing zones, absolute killing zones," said
    Smith, who walks every day along the road near his oceanfront
    condominium, the same building where McCurdy collapsed after his
    accident. "It should be a slam-dunk that we recognize the needs of
    pedestrians and bicyclists."'

    If you think that the Law of the Jungle is only an issue in Africa or
    in international politics, think again. Get on a bike--to try to do
    what's right--and you are as safe as a young antelope or a nasty
    tyrant--with plenty oil to boot... WELCOME TO THE JUNGLE!

    THE LAW OF THE JUNGLE

    Once upon a time, in the deep jungle, lived a Lion and a Monkey... One
    day the Monkey, tired of the Lion always taking the LION'S SHARE, and
    seeing that such injustice represented a danger to all, demanded
    JUSTICE... The HUNGRY LION, yawning and stretching, said, "You would
    have to have paws and sharp teeth..." Then the Monkey, who was very
    clever, devised a plan: He would go to the costume store, and look like
    a lion...

    When the Lion saw him, noticing that the new lion wasn't a match for
    him, and fearing COMPETITION, killed him on the spot --before the
    indifferent look of the little animals of the jungle... And that's how
    the Law of the Jungle was re-established one more time...

    Note: The demands of the monkey started like this: "We need Bike Lanes.
    Period." ;)

    ***

    Nowhere to ride: Decision awaits for A1A bike lanes
    By Meghan Meyer

    Palm Beach Post Staff Writer

    Sunday, January 16, 2005

    DELRAY BEACH - Broken and bleeding, the man staggered into the lobby
    of
    the oceanfront condominium and collapsed.

    A security guard called 911. Someone had been shot, the guard said.

    No, said 42-year-old John McCurdy, lying on the floor. He hadn't been
    shot. He had been hit by a car.

    The police never found the van that hit McCurdy as he rode his bicycle
    along State Road A1A, leaving him with broken ribs and a punctured
    lung.

    Since that September morning in 2003, the reclusive McCurdy has become
    a
    half-willing champion for building bike lanes on the seaside highway.

    He and other bicyclists have flooded public meetings with stories about

    being run off the road or hit with cans and chewing gum.

    They've begged the Florida Department of Transportation to go through
    with its original plans to build sidewalks and bike lanes on A1A.

    The state has enough land along most of the road to add bike lanes from

    Boca Raton to Palm Beach.

    But over the years wealthy oceanfront homeowners have planted trees and

    built ornate driveways and privacy walls in the state's right-of-way,
    and they don't want to give them up.

    They fear that widening the road will bring more traffic and more
    annoying cyclists blocking that traffic. Beach residents quickly
    marshaled their formidable political clout to keep the bike lanes away.

    The enmity between the factions deepened over the nearly two-year
    fight.

    As state transportation officials prepare to decide in the coming weeks

    whether to proceed with their original plans for $22 million in new
    asphalt, sidewalks, paved shoulders and bike lanes on the road, the
    fight has attracted the attention of bicyclists across the country.

    "It is a national issue," said Patrick McCormick, League of American
    Bicyclists spokesman. "Other state departments of transportation will
    look to Florida and see what Florida does in this case. So it's very
    important for safe bicycling and for highway safety in general that
    Palm
    Beach does the right thing."

    As far back as the 1970s, Florida has made it a priority to accommodate

    bicyclists and pedestrians in transportation projects. The state's
    groundbreaking policy helped shape federal guidelines in 2000. Florida
    law and the federal guidelines assume that bicyclists have just as much

    right to use the road as cars do and should be considered when
    engineers
    design roads. The League of American Bicyclists worries that if Florida

    allows an exemption to its policy by not building bike lanes on A1A,
    exemptions could make it into the federal guidelines too.

    "Other states will say, 'Oh, look at what they did in Florida. If they
    don't have to build bike lanes we don't have to either,' " McCormick
    said.

    Bicycling advocates say policies like Florida's help curb obesity and
    fight pollution. League Executive Director Andy Clarke became concerned

    enough to send a letter to the Palm Beach County legislative delegation

    in November.

    "The eyes of the nation's bicyclists are upon Florida DOT and Palm
    Beach
    County as this project progresses," he wrote. "... It is inconceivable
    that bike lanes and sidewalks would be deliberately left out of a
    project of this importance."

    Fierce opposition

    Delray Beach resident Jim Smith founded the group Safety As FDOT
    Envisions, known as SAFE, to push for sidewalks and bike lanes. On
    Thursday he delivered more than 6,000 petitions to the Transportation
    Department's District IV offices in Broward County, including one
    petition faxed from the U.S. Embassy in Sudan by a Delray Beach
    resident
    posted there. State legislators are considering introducing Smith's
    "Pedestrian and Bicyclist Bill of Rights" this year.

    "In Delray Beach we have killing zones, absolute killing zones," said
    Smith, who walks every day along the road near his oceanfront
    condominium, the same building where McCurdy collapsed after his
    accident. "It should be a slam-dunk that we recognize the needs of
    pedestrians and bicyclists."

    A recent study ranked the metropolitan area from Boca Raton to West
    Palm
    Beach fourth-deadliest in the nation for pedestrians. Delray Beach has
    had more bicycle crashes than any other city in Palm Beach County every

    year since 1998, according to accident reports cities filed with the
    county Metropolitan Planning Organization.

    Boca Raton added bike lanes eight years ago without any problem. The
    scenic ride runs past parkland and offers glimpses of surf through gaps

    in the trees. Purple signs proclaim Boca Raton a "Bicycle Friendly
    Community," a designation Delray Beach applied for during the height of

    the bike-lane controversy. Delray Beach dropped its application after
    cyclists called it hypocritical.

    The state also had no trouble widening the road north of Boca Raton
    through Highland Beach. Officials caught their first whiff of fierce
    opposition on May 12, 2003, as DOT Project Manager Sonny Abia made his
    first public presentation in Delray Beach. As Abia begged for order in
    front of a crowd of about 100 in a hot, standing-room-only auditorium,
    booing bicyclists shouted that homeowners should learn to share the
    road, and homeowners retorted that the cyclists didn't even live in
    town
    or pay taxes. Business owners complained that a bike lane would wipe
    out
    parking spots near popular beachfront restaurants.

    "You don't want to mess with something that has been successful and is
    clearly working," said Bill Wood, director of the Greater Delray Beach
    Chamber of Commerce. "Parking is a significant issue. When you move
    parking away it has a very scary impact on those businesses."

    The shouting match reflected the long-festering tension between drivers

    and the packs of cyclists who train on A1A. It would be replayed over
    and over as the department held public forums up and down the coast.

    Letters to the governor

    Rick Edick, an investor who moved to Delray Beach from Philadelphia a
    few years ago, spearheads the anti-bike lane movement. Edick's
    not-for-profit organization, Save Our Seacoast, or SOS, mailed out
    glossy brochures saying the state should do nothing more to the road
    than repave it.

    With a few other board members, Edick took a private jet to Tallahassee

    in October 2003 for a meeting with state Transportation Secretary Jose
    Abreu.

    As the department made similar presentations to the smaller towns along

    the barrier islands, residents in Ocean Ridge turned to Edick for help.

    Although the DOT owns enough right-of-way to build 5-foot-wide
    regulation bike lanes there, it proposed building only 3-foot-wide
    paved
    shoulders because of opposition from the community and a problem with
    trees in Gulf Stream to the south. Following Edick's lead, some
    residents now oppose any widening of the road at all.

    Just north of Delray Beach, tiny Gulf Stream knew it would be next.
    City
    officials put out the call to anyone who had pull with Gov. Jeb Bush to

    write letters opposing bike lanes. They responded in force. The
    letter-writers included a Connecticut state senator who represented the

    district where the Bush family once lived and several friends and
    former
    business associates of the governor's father, former President George
    H.W. Bush. Many addressed the governor with a collegial "Dear Jeb."

    Gulf Stream didn't really need the support of the politically
    connected.
    The town already had a trump card: State law protects invasive
    Australian pines that line A1A there. Officials elsewhere have tried to

    uproot the nuisance trees, which crowd out other plants and trap baby
    sea turtles in their roots. But Gulf Stream had the trees declared
    historic years ago. There's no room to expand the road without cutting
    Australian pines.

    Preservationists and A1A residents in Delray Beach pursued a similar
    tack, hoping historic buildings along the road could help block wider
    bike lanes. DOT is reviewing a study of those properties, and that too
    could affect the design in some sections.

    Private meetings

    By June 2003, Edick and his wife sat on a six-member committee -
    stacked, cyclists complained, with oceanfront business owners and
    homeowners - that met privately at Delray's chamber of commerce to
    come
    up with a citywide consensus. The committee decided to recommend
    building paved shoulders along most of the road in Delray Beach instead

    of bike lanes. A bike lane would run only along the east side of the
    road near the public beach.

    In June, the county Metropolitan Planning Organization recommended that

    the Transportation Department adopt the Delray Beach consensus plan,
    reversing its earlier policy of including bike lanes and sidewalks
    wherever possible. The state rarely goes against the organization's
    advice.

    Bicyclists were flabbergasted. Bike lanes have stricter maintenance
    standards than paved shoulders, where fallen leaves and debris pile up.

    If a road has bike lanes, cyclists must ride there, just as cars must
    stay in the travel lane. They couldn't understand why homeowners
    wouldn't want bike lanes.

    "Investment bankers and restaurateurs should not be engineering a
    road,"
    county bike and pedestrian coordinator Raphael Clemente said. "Just
    like
    I'm a bike/ped coordinator and I can't go into (oceanside Delray
    restaurant) Boston's and start telling the chef how to cook steaks."

    A bicyclist and songwriter from West Palm Beach, Mike Tague, later
    filed
    a complaint with the local state attorney's office alleging the Delray
    committee violated the state Sunshine Law by not opening its meetings
    to
    the public.

    Wood, the chamber of commerce director, said the chamber invited all
    interested parties to participate.

    "I would say this has had the most emotion of any of the issues we've
    dealt with," Wood said. "On the other hand, I would tell you we kind of

    think we did this right."

    Wood said he expects the Transportation Department to adopt the city's
    consensus plan. The only issues left to discuss are details such as
    street lighting and number of parking spots, he said.

    "Everything was aboveboard so far as I saw," Edick said. "We're leaving

    it to the city and FDOT to work out any problems with the consensus
    plan, and we'll support that. The reality is neither the city nor FDOT
    would allow an unsafe project to be completed."

    Alphabet of groups

    Edick and his Save Our Seacoast group have stayed out of the limelight
    since throwing their support behind the consensus plan. The group
    remains "very much alive," with a goal of preserving the coastline and
    scenic nature of the highway, Edick said.

    Clemente, the county's bicycle coordinator, worried that Edick's
    success
    could set an example for other opponents of bike lanes across the
    country. Homeowners groups could start challenging state engineers,
    wiping bike lanes off the map in affluent areas from Florida to
    California.

    "Historically, Florida has been pretty good with the state Department
    of
    Transportation policies, even though it has a high crash rate,"
    Clemente
    said. "That's why A1A is such a standout case. It's so obvious what's
    happening here."

    The bicyclists have formed their own groups to counter SOS, including
    Jim Smith's SAFE and the not-for-profit Safe Bicycling Coalition of
    Palm
    Beach County. Amid the growing tension in Delray Beach, cyclists there
    organized a social club. The Delray Beach Bicycle Club has joined the
    popular West Palm Beach and Boca Raton bicycle clubs in organizing
    regular group rides on A1A.

    Decision expected soon

    Transportation officials plan to make a decision on whether to build
    bike lanes in Delray Beach soon and present the decision at a town
    meeting next month, DOT project manager Abia said.

    "We've gotten quite a lot of input," he said. "There are some people
    who
    don't understand the advantages the project will give to them. This is
    an opportunity for them to see that what we are proposing has an
    advantage to them in comparison to what we have now."

    If the department does not build bike lanes wherever it has enough
    room,
    some cyclists said they might sue.

    If someone has an accident that a bike lane could have prevented, that
    could prove even more costly to taxpayers. In Broward County, a cyclist

    who was badly injured in an accident on A1A won a $7.7 million judgment

    against the state because it failed to build wide enough travel lanes.

    If Delray Beach had a bike lane, injured cyclist McCurdy said, he would

    have ridden there instead of in the travel lane on the morning of his
    accident. He had no choice but to ride in the road because the law
    prohibits him from riding on the sidewalk.

    At 6:30 a.m. on that Sunday in 2003, there was no traffic. But the van
    found him, and he never saw it coming. His injuries have healed for the

    most part and he's returned to riding his bike on the road, bike lane
    or
    no bike lane. But now he looks over his shoulder constantly. He never
    did that before.

    "If there had been a bike lane this accident wouldn't have happened,"
    McCurdy said. "Everyone should have the right to ride on beautiful A1A
    if they choose, not just the people who live there."

    Anti-lane activist Edick said the bicyclists should move on.

    "They need to get over it," he said. "We didn't get repaving, what we
    wanted. Bikers didn't get 5-foot-wide lanes, what they wanted. They
    just
    can't accept it."

    http://www.palmbeachpost.com/south_county/content/south_county/epaper/2005/01/16/m1a_dbbike_0116.htm

    http://committed.to/justiceforpeace
     
    Tags:


  2. Chumly Fakra

    Chumly Fakra Guest

    Bicycle lanes are just paint on the street.
    They do not improve safety at all.
    Deal with it.

    *Chumly*
     
  3. On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 20:14:27 -0600 in rec.bicycles.misc, "Chumly
    Fakra" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Bicycle lanes are just paint on the street.
    > They do not improve safety at all.
    > Deal with it.
    >

    It's not just the paint stripe. They're talking about widening a
    road that's too narrow, and has no shoulder or sidewalks. One
    reason it's so important to do so is because Florida has such a
    large number of impaired elderly drivers with bad vision, slow
    reflexes, and bad physical health. Florida's DMV apparently
    won't cancel elderly drivers' licenses unless they kill someone.

    If they fail to widen this road, it will only confirm my belief
    that Florida should stay in my do-not-visit list, where it ended
    up after sentencing a 12 year old retarded kid to life in prison
    for killing a younger child when he was imitating what he saw the
    World Wrestling idiots do on TV. That and stealing the 2000
    election were enough to put me off from ever spending any money
    traveling there.
     
  4. "Chumly Fakra" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Bicycle lanes are just paint on the street.
    > They do not improve safety at all.
    > Deal with it.
    >
    > *Chumly*
    >
    >


    deal with what? your hummer? bike lanes are a wider street with an area
    designated for bikes (not for parked cars), with little bikers painted on
    the street to tell drivers that it's a bike lane. they help improve safety
    for cyclists...a lot.
     
  5. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    "Chumly Fakra" <[email protected]> writes:

    > Bicycle lanes are just paint on the street.
    > They do not improve safety at all.
    > Deal with it.


    You're quite correct. The best thing for improving safety on the
    streets is an improvement in driver competence, on one hand, and an
    improvement in cyclist compliance with traffic laws. Both cyclists
    and drivers have an equal right to use the streets, roads and most
    highways. Deal with it.
     
  6. Ted Bungle

    Ted Bungle Guest

    "greggery peccary" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    >
    > "Chumly Fakra" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > Bicycle lanes are just paint on the street.
    > > They do not improve safety at all.
    > > Deal with it.
    > >
    > > *Chumly*
    > >
    > >

    >
    > deal with what? your hummer? bike lanes are a wider street with an area
    > designated for bikes (not for parked cars), with little bikers painted on
    > the street to tell drivers that it's a bike lane. they help improve safety
    > for cyclists...a lot.
    >


    To a cyclist it may seem to, but Chumly is right, it is just paint on the
    street.
    Even worse, it may also cause more accidents, as car drivers expect bikes to
    always stay inside the bike lanes.
    So when a bike swerves out of the bike lane, the car will hit him, and the
    car driver can say it is the cyclists fault, as he wasn't in the bike lane.
    It is false safety.
     
  7. > The state has enough land along most of the road to add bike
    > lanes from Boca Raton to Palm Beach. But over the years wealthy
    > oceanfront homeowners have planted trees and built ornate
    > driveways and privacy walls in the state's right-of-way,
    > and they don't want to give them up.


    NIMFY = Not In My Front Yard

    --
    "Bicycling is a healthy and manly pursuit with much
    to recommend it, and, unlike other foolish crazes,
    it has not died out." -- The Daily Telegraph (1877)
     
  8. "Ted Bungle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]individual.net...
    >
    > "greggery peccary" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > >
    > >
    > > "Chumly Fakra" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > > > Bicycle lanes are just paint on the street.
    > > > They do not improve safety at all.
    > > > Deal with it.
    > > >
    > > > *Chumly*
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > > deal with what? your hummer? bike lanes are a wider street with an area
    > > designated for bikes (not for parked cars), with little bikers painted

    on
    > > the street to tell drivers that it's a bike lane. they help improve

    safety
    > > for cyclists...a lot.
    > >

    >
    > To a cyclist it may seem to, but Chumly is right, it is just paint on the
    > street.
    > Even worse, it may also cause more accidents, as car drivers expect bikes

    to
    > always stay inside the bike lanes.
    > So when a bike swerves out of the bike lane, the car will hit him, and the
    > car driver can say it is the cyclists fault, as he wasn't in the bike

    lane.
    > It is false safety.
    >
    >


    i see your point (i just hate that "deal with it"-end of discussion
    attitude-almost as bad as getting snipped out of context), the lanes put the
    cyclist where they may not be seen in an intersection where they would be
    seen if travelling out in the road; but in my commute i travel some bike
    lanes and some streets without. in town it isnt bad without bike lanes
    because i can keep up (and anyone who wants to pass me and make me sniff
    their exhaust waiting for the next light has to change lanes to do so); but
    on streets without the lane i can't do 40 mph so i keep right and motorists
    will always pass in the same lane. most roads around here there is barely
    room for two cars and i have seen many close calls (head-ons) when people
    must pass me-sometimes i even have to jump onto the sidewalk. in the bike
    lanes i have had fewer close calls with moving vehicles but more close calls
    with doors. so it depends on where the lane is etc. i dont think they are
    inherently safer, but for me they are a much needed alternative to riding a
    narrow road where everyone drives way to fast. every route has it's unique
    hazards. i can cite specific examples here in seattle if you like...
    what i really cant stand are those ped/cycle multi use trails...those are
    the worst!
    -alan
     
  9. Chumly Fakra wrote:
    > Bicycle lanes are just paint on the street.
    > They do not improve safety at all.
    > Deal with it.
    >
    > *Chumly*


    Borders are just lines on a map, and they are--or should be--respected.
     
  10. Dennis P. Harris wrote:
    > On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 20:14:27 -0600 in rec.bicycles.misc, "Chumly
    > Fakra" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Bicycle lanes are just paint on the street.
    > > They do not improve safety at all.
    > > Deal with it.
    > >

    > It's not just the paint stripe. They're talking about widening a
    > road that's too narrow, and has no shoulder or sidewalks. One
    > reason it's so important to do so is because Florida has such a
    > large number of impaired elderly drivers with bad vision, slow
    > reflexes, and bad physical health. Florida's DMV apparently
    > won't cancel elderly drivers' licenses unless they kill someone.
    >
    > If they fail to widen this road, it will only confirm my belief
    > that Florida should stay in my do-not-visit list, where it ended
    > up after sentencing a 12 year old retarded kid to life in prison
    > for killing a younger child when he was imitating what he saw the
    > World Wrestling idiots do on TV. That and stealing the 2000
    > election were enough to put me off from ever spending any money
    > traveling there.


    Wise option. That that and driving.

    DO NOT FEED THE LION. ;)
     
  11. Tim McNamara wrote:
    > "Chumly Fakra" <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    > > Bicycle lanes are just paint on the street.
    > > They do not improve safety at all.
    > > Deal with it.

    >
    > You're quite correct. The best thing for improving safety on the
    > streets is an improvement in driver competence, on one hand, and an
    > improvement in cyclist compliance with traffic laws. Both cyclists
    > and drivers have an equal right to use the streets, roads and most
    > highways. Deal with it.


    Both should be addressed. But expecting that someone--short of
    Armageddon--will change traffic laws is just wishful thinking.
     
  12. Ted Bungle wrote:
    > "greggery peccary" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > >
    > >
    > > "Chumly Fakra" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > > > Bicycle lanes are just paint on the street.
    > > > They do not improve safety at all.
    > > > Deal with it.
    > > >
    > > > *Chumly*
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > > deal with what? your hummer? bike lanes are a wider street with an

    area
    > > designated for bikes (not for parked cars), with little bikers

    painted on
    > > the street to tell drivers that it's a bike lane. they help improve

    safety
    > > for cyclists...a lot.
    > >

    >
    > To a cyclist it may seem to, but Chumly is right, it is just paint on

    the
    > street.
    > Even worse, it may also cause more accidents, as car drivers expect

    bikes to
    > always stay inside the bike lanes.
    > So when a bike swerves out of the bike lane, the car will hit him,

    and the
    > car driver can say it is the cyclists fault, as he wasn't in the bike

    lane.
    > It is false safety.



    So are lines on the road. I wonder why they go through the trouble of
    painting them. Though hardly observed, they look cute.
     
  13. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    "Ted Bungle" <[email protected]> writes:

    > To a cyclist it may seem to, but Chumly is right, it is just paint
    > on the street. Even worse, it may also cause more accidents, as car
    > drivers expect bikes to always stay inside the bike lanes. So when
    > a bike swerves out of the bike lane, the car will hit him, and the
    > car driver can say it is the cyclists fault, as he wasn't in the
    > bike lane. It is false safety.


    Your assessment of "fault" is probablly incorrect, depending on the
    laws of your location. In my state, a cyclist may take the entire
    lane if that is necessary for their safety, and drivers just have to
    deal with it. Few drivers actually know the rules of the road,
    however, and thus they make ignorant statements like yours.
     
  14. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    "donquijote1954" <[email protected]> writes:

    > Tim McNamara wrote:
    >> "Chumly Fakra" <[email protected]> writes:
    >>
    >> > Bicycle lanes are just paint on the street. They do not improve
    >> > safety at all. Deal with it.

    >>
    >> You're quite correct. The best thing for improving safety on the
    >> streets is an improvement in driver competence, on one hand, and an
    >> improvement in cyclist compliance with traffic laws. Both cyclists
    >> and drivers have an equal right to use the streets, roads and most
    >> highways. Deal with it.

    >
    > Both should be addressed. But expecting that someone--short of
    > Armageddon--will change traffic laws is just wishful thinking.


    I wasn't talking about changing the traffic laws. Best if you read a
    bit closer, eh?
     
  15. On Sat, 5 Feb 2005, Tim McNamara wrote:

    > The best thing for improving safety on the streets is an improvement in
    > driver competence, on one hand, and an improvement in cyclist compliance
    > with traffic laws. Both cyclists and drivers have an equal right to use
    > the streets, roads and most highways.


    ....and an equal responsibility to do their part for everyone's safety.
     
  16. Tim McNamara wrote:
    > "Ted Bungle" <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    > > To a cyclist it may seem to, but Chumly is right, it is just paint
    > > on the street. Even worse, it may also cause more accidents, as

    car
    > > drivers expect bikes to always stay inside the bike lanes. So when
    > > a bike swerves out of the bike lane, the car will hit him, and the
    > > car driver can say it is the cyclists fault, as he wasn't in the
    > > bike lane. It is false safety.

    >
    > Your assessment of "fault" is probablly incorrect, depending on the
    > laws of your location. In my state, a cyclist may take the entire
    > lane if that is necessary for their safety, and drivers just have to
    > deal with it. Few drivers actually know the rules of the road,
    > however, and thus they make ignorant statements like yours.


    I don't think the lion minds the monkeys going around him a bit. But I
    would be concerned to have the lions around me.
     
  17. Tim McNamara wrote:
    > "donquijote1954" <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    > > Tim McNamara wrote:
    > >> "Chumly Fakra" <[email protected]> writes:
    > >>
    > >> > Bicycle lanes are just paint on the street. They do not improve
    > >> > safety at all. Deal with it.
    > >>
    > >> You're quite correct. The best thing for improving safety on the
    > >> streets is an improvement in driver competence, on one hand, and

    an
    > >> improvement in cyclist compliance with traffic laws. Both

    cyclists
    > >> and drivers have an equal right to use the streets, roads and most
    > >> highways. Deal with it.

    > >
    > > Both should be addressed. But expecting that someone--short of
    > > Armageddon--will change traffic laws is just wishful thinking.

    >
    > I wasn't talking about changing the traffic laws. Best if you read a
    > bit closer, eh?


    I'm talking about a whole package:

    1-Driver education

    2-Tougher licensing

    3-Enforcement of traffic laws to include passing on the left and unsafe
    low speed

    4-No phone talking

    In other words, get rid of the Law of the Jungle in our roads.
     
  18. On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 20:14:27 -0600, "Chumly Fakra" <[email protected]>
    said:

    >Deal with it.


    No.
     
  19. On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 22:45:06 -0800, "greggery peccary" <[email protected]> said:

    >i see your point (i just hate that "deal with it"-end of discussion
    >attitude-almost as bad as getting snipped out of context),


    Notice how all these conservatives always say "deal with it" or
    "whatever" when they lose an argument.
     
  20. Having smelled the scent of people feeding on troll bait ("bike light
    ticket" - cross-posted to bicycle and nascar groups), the deranged
    spaniard dangles his line in the waters and .......

    ..... He gets a hit. What is it? The flashy lure? Some people just can
    not resist that troll bait.

    Come on. Wise up.

    There *is* a pattern here. About once a month. The same old thing.

    --
    *****************************
    Chuck Anderson • Boulder, CO
    http://www.CycleTourist.com
    Integrity is obvious.
    The lack of it is common.
    *****************************
     
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