Cyclists are Victims of the Law of the Jungle



Tim McNamara wrote:
> Chuck Anderson <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > Having smelled the scent of people feeding on troll bait ("bike
> > light ticket" - cross-posted to bicycle and nascar groups), the
> > deranged spaniard dangles his line in the waters and .......
> >
> > .... He gets a hit. What is it? The flashy lure? Some people just
> > can not resist that troll bait.
> >
> > Come on. Wise up.
> >
> > There *is* a pattern here. About once a month. The same old thing.

>
> And generally the same old topic.



I think this time is more clear...the Law of the Jungle. Once it's
clear that's what we got, I'll rest my case.
 
Scott en Aztlán wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:58:55 -0600, "Flaxman" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >That is why bike lanes do *not* work.
> >The car driver expects the bike to stay in that lane.
> >
> >If there was no line, the Car driver would watch out for the bike

more.
>
> Wrong. The car driver would assume the bike has no business being on
> the road AT ALL.
>
> As you said, car drivers are clueless regarding the law. But like my
> grandpa used to say: "you can be right, and you can be DEAD right."
>
> --
> Sloth Kills!
> http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/


I second that. Grandpa was right. And sloth kills.
 
Scott en Aztlán wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 18:55:38 -0600, Tim McNamara
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> If the Bicyclist is outside the bike lane, it is his fault. No

loss
> >> to mankind.

> >
> >Another one who doesn't know the laws. Geez. How do you people get
> >driver's licenses?

>
> The real question is, you pedalcyclists KNOW that drivers are like
> this, and yet you put yourselves in harm's way anyway. Just who is
> bucking for a Darwin Award here?
>
> --
> Sloth Kills!
> http://www.geocities.com/slothkills/


I see SURVIVAL OF THE MEANEST on the road. They beat hands down the
worst nature throws at the little animals.
 
Chuck Anderson wrote:
> Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> >Chuck Anderson <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Having smelled the scent of people feeding on troll bait ("bike
> >>light ticket" - cross-posted to bicycle and nascar groups), the
> >>deranged spaniard dangles his line in the waters and .......
> >>
> >>.... He gets a hit. What is it? The flashy lure? Some people just
> >>can not resist that troll bait.
> >>
> >>Come on. Wise up.
> >>
> >>There *is* a pattern here. About once a month. The same old thing.
> >>
> >>

> >
> >And generally the same old topic.
> >
> >

> So why do you respond and litter five newsgroups with this ****?
>
> Please don't feed the trolls.
>


Are you copying me? I said, DO NOT FEED THE LION.
 
"Flaxman" <[email protected]> writes:

> "Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> Basically, the laws are similar in most states- cyclists are to
>> ride to the right side of the road, but can take the entire lane if
>> needed for their safety.
>>
>> An example would be a section of shoulder covered in broken glass
>> from the vodka bottle someone thought was inadvisable to keep in
>> their car. The cyclist can take the lane because it's unsafe to
>> ride through broken glass. Poor road conditions such as potholes
>> can also occasion the same type of thing. Another situation might
>> be going through a construction zone where the road is too narrow
>> for drivers to safely pass the cyclist. One the safety issue is no
>> longer a problem, the cyclist should go back to riding to the right
>> side of the road.

>
> That is why bike lanes do *not* work. The car driver expects the
> bike to stay in that lane.


I'm not disagreeing with you on this. I don't like bike lanes as a
rule, and I really dislike badly designed bike lanes which are all too
common. Try riding the bike lanes in downtown Minneapolis someday- a
design that's so bad, one suspects malignant intent on the part of the
designers.
 
Speaking of cyclists, I once met a guy who said his group of bicyclists
especially hated pickup truck drivers, because they are the ones who show
the least consideration to them, so they like to key pickup trucks and
truck-based SUVs as they ride by them (I think he meant parked ones, but I
don't remember).

I personally don't like to meet bicyclists on the road, but the law here in
California says that, unless otherwise posted, bicyclists essentially have
the same rights as car drivers (with none of the responsibilities), and I
often stick my neck out to accomadate bicyclists: I waste time hanging back
and give them space when passing them, so ...

Dear Bicycle Lovers,
If you see a tiny little Corolla parked on the street in Southern California
somewhere, close to La Jolla perhaps, don't key it please, it might be
mine, and I mean you no harm. Thanks.
 
FLATORG wrote:
> "Chuck Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > FLATORG wrote:
> >
> > >"Chuck Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > >news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > >
> > >>Tim McNamara wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Chuck Anderson <[email protected]> writes:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>Having smelled the scent of people feeding on troll bait ("bike
> > >>>>light ticket" - cross-posted to bicycle and nascar groups), the
> > >>>>deranged spaniard dangles his line in the waters and .......
> > >>>>
> > >>>>.... He gets a hit. What is it? The flashy lure? Some people

just
> > >>>>can not resist that troll bait.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Come on. Wise up.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>There *is* a pattern here. About once a month. The same old

thing.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>And generally the same old topic.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>So why do you respond and litter five newsgroups with this ****?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >Are you afraid to answer the question?
> > >
> > >Why don't you answer the Question?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >

> > What question? Do you mean, "why do people respond to such obvious

and
> > repeated trolls?
> >
> > I don't have an answer.
> >
> > If it's about the post, I started ignoring this idiot a long time

ago.
> > He's like an old record that keeps playing over and over and over

again
> > - really annoying.
> >

>
> I agree I have seen the bike lane **** come up about every two
> months.........


Funny, bicyclists/little animals are on the side of the SUV/lions. At
least they are consistently class conscious.
 
Scott en Aztlán <[email protected]> writes:

> On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:58:55 -0600, "Flaxman" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>That is why bike lanes do *not* work. The car driver expects the
>>bike to stay in that lane.
>>
>>If there was no line, the Car driver would watch out for the bike
>>more.

>
> Wrong. The car driver would assume the bike has no business being on
> the road AT ALL.


The ignorant car drivers already make that assumption; some drivers
are not ignorant, of course. I find that the percentage of drivers
who are just plain mean seems to be increasing slowly over time, as
the local area becomes more populated and develops increased urban
problems thanks to ill-advised planning and policies.

Many frustrated drivers seem to feel justified in taking it out on
people who seem weaker than them, such as bicyclists. Pulling my cell
phone out of my pocket and pretending to make a phone call often
encourages them to drive better.

> As you said, car drivers are clueless regarding the law. But like my
> grandpa used to say: "you can be right, and you can be DEAD right."


And you have a solution in mind for this?
 
Scott en Aztlán <[email protected]> writes:

> On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 18:50:04 -0600, Tim McNamara
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Scott en Aztlán <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 10:10:54 -0600, Tim McNamara
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In my state, a cyclist may take the entire lane if that is
>>>>necessary for their safety, and drivers just have to deal with it.
>>>>Few drivers actually know the rules of the road, however
>>>
>>> Something just doesn't add up here.
>>>
>>> Pedalcyclists claim they are taking the lane "for safety," yet you
>>> just admitted that they are aware that most drivers don't know the
>>> rules of the road. Seems to me that taking the lane DECREASES the
>>> pedalcyclist's safety, rather than INCREASING it.
>>>
>>> One might suspect that pedalcyclists don't take the lane "for
>>> safety" at all, but rather to make some sort of Critical
>>> Mass-esque statement about pedalcyclists' rights...

>>
>>You're overreaching here and perhaps you should read the laws for
>>yourself. You can find them via Google for almost any state.
>>Basically, the laws are similar in most states- cyclists are to ride
>>to the right side of the road, but can take the entire lane if
>>needed for their safety.

>
> Repeating yourself does not negate my point.
>
> They KNOW drivers are clueless, but they put themselves in harm's
> way anyway. Ergo they are not doing it "for safety."


That's incorrect, Scott. Bicyclists have to make a choice sometimes
between a manifestly unsafe situation and a potentially unsafe
situation. Like anyone else, we play the odds. Now, I've got enough
skills to be able to look behind me and ride in a straight line, so I
can easily check traffic, make eye contact, signal my intent, etc. A
lot of drivers deal with that quite well; some do not.

Making sudden movements upsets people, for good reason, and I try to
avoid doing that. Because a cyclist has much better visibility than a
driver, as a rule, I can usually see problems up ahead fairly well and
start planning for how to deal with it. Creative solutions are often
very possible, such as riding on the right side of construction cones
instead of squeezing into a narrow lane with cars and trucks- everyone
is much happier if those types of solutions can be used.
 
Usual Suspect wrote:

> I personally don't like to meet bicyclists on the road, but the law
> here in California says that, unless otherwise posted, bicyclists
> essentially have the same rights as car drivers (with none of the
> responsibilities),


********.

> and I often stick my neck out to accomadate
> bicyclists


You lie better than you spell.
 
Scott en Aztlán <[email protected]> writes:

> On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 18:54:40 -0600, Tim McNamara
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> Except when the arrogant little pedalcyclists

>>
>>Gee, no attitude there.

>
> The type of pedalcyclists I've been talking about are experts on
> "attitude."


Ah, whereas drivers are always exemplars of rectitude, eh? You've not
actually heard about road rage, then?

>>> ride with their bike tires directly ON the white stripe that
>>> separates the bike lane from the rightmost automobile lane. This
>>> places their little spandex-clad butts about six inches away from
>>> my passenger side mirror as I fly past them at 65 MPH. One mistake
>>> and his scrawny ass is in the weeds...

>>
>>And yours is in jail.

>
> You think so? Assuming you even remain conscious long enough to get
> my license plate number, what crime, exactly, would I be charged
> with?


Lots of possibilities from vehicular manslaughter to reckless driving
to failure to yield right of way. If you hit a vehicle in front of
you, it is your fault in almost every situation whether that vehicle
has an engine or not.
 
Scott en Aztlán <[email protected]> writes:

> On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 18:55:38 -0600, Tim McNamara
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> If the Bicyclist is outside the bike lane, it is his fault. No
>>> loss to mankind.

>>
>>Another one who doesn't know the laws. Geez. How do you people get
>>driver's licenses?

>
> The real question is, you pedalcyclists KNOW that drivers are like
> this, and yet you put yourselves in harm's way anyway. Just who is
> bucking for a Darwin Award here?


Are you just continuing to troll, or are you really that oblivious to
your faulty thinking?
 
"Usual Suspect" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Speaking of cyclists, I once met a guy who said his group of

bicyclists
> especially hated pickup truck drivers, because they are the

ones who show
> the least consideration to them, so they like to key pickup

trucks and
> truck-based SUVs as they ride by them (I think he meant

parked ones, but I
> don't remember).
>

Troll alert.
 
On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 22:45:06 -0800 in rec.bicycles.misc, "greggery
peccary" <.@.> wrote:

> i have seen many close calls (head-ons) when people
> must pass me-sometimes i even have to jump onto the sidewalk.


just hold the lane. if they want to pass when it's unsafe, it's
the cagers' problem. the law requires them to wait UNTIL IT IS
SAFE TO PASS.
 
Tim McNamara wrote:

> If you hit a vehicle in front of
> you, it is your fault in almost every situation whether that vehicle
> has an engine or not.


Is there a law that says this?

What if someone runs the red light (and there are no witnesses), how is the
fault determined by courts and insurance companies?

What if I'm legally passing someone, but he swerves right in front of me,
giving me no time to react?

What if someone changes lanes poorly and causes an accident?

As a side note, I would personally prefer it if road rage was
decriminalized. A lot of people are total assholes, and it should be a
small fine to shoot them, like deer. Just like in states that have the most
people legally carrying guns, the fewest robberies are committed; if we had
decriminalized road rage, people would think twice before cutting you off.
 
On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 22:45:38 -0600 in rec.bicycles.misc, Tim
McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:

> Are you just continuing to troll, or are you really that oblivious to
> your faulty thinking?


scott's nothing but a troll, and should be in everyone's
killfile.
 
On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:10:52 GMT in rec.bicycles.misc,
"Gooserider" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Good one. I don't suppose Dennis would be so understanding if it was his
> little girl Lionel Tate beat to death.


The kid is retarded. Life in an adult prison for a crime not
knowingly committed at age 12 is a bit harsh.

I didn't say that he should be free, mind you. He may need to be
institutionalized, but there are many other facilities for
developmentally disabled adults who may be dangerous other than
an adult prison (and probably less expensive, too).
 
Tim McNamara wrote:
> Scott en Aztlán <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > One might suspect that pedalcyclists don't take the lane "for
> > safety" at all, but rather to make some sort of Critical Mass-esque
> > statement about pedalcyclists' rights...

>
> You're overreaching here and perhaps you should read the laws for
> yourself. You can find them via Google for almost any state.


Scott is fairly level-headed - it strikes me as odd that he is not
completely familiar with the traffic laws in his own state.

In any case, plenty of otherwise level-headed folks have fits of
apoplexy when they find themselves anywhere near a bicyclist. Having
never been held up for anything longer than 15 or so seconds behind
one, I cannot fathom the rage.

I used to ride on the road myself. But aggressive and malicious
drivers gave me a reason to just stick with driving a car for
transport.

I have seen about a million reasons for folks not wanting bicycles on
the road, but mostly they boil down to envy of the invisibility of
bicyclist traffic infractions. I mean, if I ran stop lights and signs
with my car, soon enough I'd not have a license. Idiot bicyclists get
away with this irresponsible **** all the time.

One of my very favorite rationales for eliminating road cycling is the
myth of the oblivious bicyclist causing an accident and fleeing the
scene. I have never found a single creditiable report of such a thing
happening. I can guess that it may have happened somewhere out there -
once or twice. But it's in the realm of winning the lottery. As a
rationale for restriction or licensing, or requirement for insurance?
LOL.

My second favorite is the canard about cyclists not paying for the
road. Considering the damage cycles do to roadways, I'd say anything
above zero more than covers it. When I go and buy gas for my
lawnmower, the tax on that just covered my use of the roadway with a
bicycle. In this state, roads are not completely covered by fuel taxes
anyway. In AZ, where Scott is, that might not be the case. Here,
sales tax covers part of it. So, if I buy non-food items, I'm paying
for my bike use of the road.

> One the safety issue is no longer a problem, the
> cyclist should go back to riding to the right side of the road.


'Round here, sewer grates and narrow travel lanes were part of the
problem. After being brush-passed several times when a clear lane was
available to the left, I started taking the lane where they were
narrow, to avoid the brush-passing. Funny, riding just right of the
oil stripe made the cars use the other lane for passing.

> Most drivers don't know the rules of the road as regards the rights

of
> cyclists and other non-motorized road users, nor do they understand
> how their roads are funded, and they make silly assumptions about
> cyclists and other non-motorized road users as well.


Mostly, they think that roads are only for ICE-powered vehicles. Any
other potential user is to be bullied off.

>
> As a rule, the only significant negative interactions I have with
> drivers tend to be with extreme right-wingers (who don't seem to
> understand conservatism very well, or they wouldn't be trying to tell
> me what to do)


I find that most extremists don't understand anything very well.
Mostly, they aren't very bright, and have fewer-than-normal critical
thinking skills.

The bright ones just use the dogma to separate the dumb ones from their
cash.

> As far as a "Critical Massesque" thing goes, that's nonsense.


It is an interesting counter to the odd claim that "majority rules."
Boy, but when bikes are in the majority, ever last ounce of rational
thought goes right out the window for those who think they literally
own the road.

Doesn't matter for me any more - I transport my bike on or in my car,
and take it off when I want to go places cars can't. I'd rather get
hurt crashing because I didn't have the technical skills to negotiate a
section of trail than be injured by a fool who has no clue what the
laws state about vehicular traffic on public roadways.

E.P.
 
"Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Scott en Aztlán <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:58:55 -0600, "Flaxman" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>That is why bike lanes do *not* work. The car driver expects the
> >>bike to stay in that lane.
> >>
> >>If there was no line, the Car driver would watch out for the bike
> >>more.

> >
> > Wrong. The car driver would assume the bike has no business being on
> > the road AT ALL.

>
> The ignorant car drivers already make that assumption; some drivers
> are not ignorant, of course. I find that the percentage of drivers
> who are just plain mean seems to be increasing slowly over time,


Because Bicycle assholes are getting meaner. Throwing tings at cars, keying
them, and so on

>
 
"Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Scott en Aztlán <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 18:55:38 -0600, Tim McNamara
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>> If the Bicyclist is outside the bike lane, it is his fault. No
> >>> loss to mankind.
> >>
> >>Another one who doesn't know the laws. Geez. How do you people get
> >>driver's licenses?

> >

>


All Bicycles need licenses, and plates, and a cyclist license card too to
make them finally be responsible for their actions and face fines. It is
the ONLY way to solve all the problems we have.
 

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