Cyclists cannot ride over planned bridge

[Ian Smith]

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007, Paul Boyd <usenet.is.worse@plusnet> wrote:
> [email protected] said the following on 16/08/2007 11:29:
> > Report in local rag about a proposed bridge where cyclist are supposed
> > to get off and push.
> >
> > http://qurl.com/n122c
>
> I wonder how peds and cyclists sharing a bridge is unsafe, but peds and
> cyclists sharing (officially) a pavement is deemed to be OK?

Well, as a straight matter of fact:

1: parapet height (pavemenst don't need them to stop people falling
to their death)

2: width (pavement may be wider)

But both matters should be trivially dealt with during design (they
sometimes hinder subsequent change-of-use).

regards, Ian SMith
--
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|o o|
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[Eatmorepies]

"Andrew May" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tony Raven wrote:
>> Andrew May wrote:
>>>
>>> architects .... a triumph of design over function.
>>>
>>
>> I think that is tautology ;-)
>>
>> Tony
>
> Why? I actually have a lot of respect for what some architects can do in
> difficult situations. I also sometime secretly wish that I had gone into
> architecture rather than engineering but that is another story. However I
> am also very well aware that some architects are quite capable of
> designing something that looks very impressive but actually fails to
> satisfactorily achieve what they set out to do. I fear that this bridge
> may be one of those occasions. Hence my comment.
>
> Andrew

Too many times the highly trained architects have buggered things up. I
worked in a school which won awards but you could either have heating - or
you could have ventilation, the design was such that the ventilation sucked
the hot air straight out of the rooms. Big buildings are projects that
shouldn't go wrong - even in the details, ther'es so much lead time that any
fault in the design should be spotted.

But the clue here is from the apparatchiks; "Despite the protests, council
planning officers are recommended approval for what they say will become a
"unique landmark attraction"." Which can be translated as 'we don't care how
it works so long as it makes us and our beloved council leaders look good on
the news.

John

 

[Ian Smith]

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 15:44:16 +0100, Andrew May <[email protected]> wrote:
> Tony Raven wrote:
> > Andrew May wrote:
> >>
> >> architects .... a triumph of design over function.
> >
> > I think that is tautology ;-)
>
> Why? I actually have a lot of respect for what some architects can
> do in difficult situations. I also sometime secretly wish that I
> had gone into architecture rather than engineering but that is
> another story.

Architects (in general) don't design bridges in a meaningful sense.
When they interfere too much, the bridge tends to wobble.

There are a very few architects that are also structural engineers.

regards, Ian SMith
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|o o|
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[Tony Raven]

Eatmorepies wrote:
>
> Too many times the highly trained architects have buggered things up. I
> worked in a school which won awards but you could either have heating - or
> you could have ventilation, the design was such that the ventilation sucked
> the hot air straight out of the rooms. Big buildings are projects that
> shouldn't go wrong - even in the details, ther'es so much lead time that any
> fault in the design should be spotted.
>

I had the misfortune to work in two Richard Rogers buildings. Both had
services on the outside that froze up in winter. One had air
conditioning inlet and outlet vents on the floor so that in summer we
all sat there with a chill breeze blowing out the vents, over our ankles
and back down the vents while the rest of our bodies baked. Someone
solved that one eventually by putting big pipes over the outlet vents to
force the air to have to rise to get out. The other one had the
ceilings suspended from an external suspension bridge like structure
until a hard New Jersey frost shrank the cable and started pulling its
anchor points out the ground. Both buildings long on concept short on
practicality.

Then there's Zaha Hadid, probably the most famous living female
architect whose architecture has been described as having "dramatic
sculptural strength and lamentable functional weakness". Her response I
believe was to say something like functionality is irrelevant, its the
concept that matters.

Tony

 

[Don Whybrow]

Dan Gregory wrote:
> Paul Boyd wrote:
>> Matt B said the following on 16/08/2007 15:30:
>>
>>> Pavements don't usually move.
>>
>> Nor do bridges when they are in use.
> The Severn Bridge & the Golden Gate Bridge move a lot!!
.... but not as much as the original Tacoma Narrows bridge!

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

Question _your own_ authority.

 

[fred2]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Report in local rag about a proposed bridge where cyclist are supposed
> to get off and push.
>
> http://qurl.com/n122c
>
> --
> Simon Mason
>
We've got two bridges within 1/2 mile on a cycle/shared path in Llandulas /
Colwyn Bay.
One bridge is about 3feet wide, but has sides of metal sheeting about 6ft
high and there is no request by 'Jobsworth' to get off and push.
the other bridge is of a rustic construction about 5ft wide 15 ft long, but
the side railings are only 3'6" high and attract walkers to watch the ducks.
Here, however we have 'Cyclists dismount' instruction - usually forcefully
brought to the attention of any mounted rider by pedestrians.
IMHO these signs are only there to protect the local authority from any
claims by cyclists, since there is no chance of falling off the metal clad
bridge.
Fred

 

[Matt B]

Paul Boyd wrote:
> Matt B said the following on 16/08/2007 15:30:
>
>> Pavements don't usually move.
>
> Nor do bridges when they are in use.

This one is designed to.

>> Could it be that the council have got cold-feet over the prospect of
>> defending claims against them for allowing cyclists to endanger
>> themselves, and others, by riding onto, and along a moving structure.
>
> I'm not quite sure what point you're making here. Presumably whilst the
> bridge is moving then *no-one* will be on it.

No, according to the architects, this one is designed thus: "The slowly
revolving geometry allows people the unique experience of walking onto
and riding on the bridge while it opens."[1]

If it is designed to allow for it, then presumably it can only be the
council who have decided to disallow it.

> If it's not moving it's
> no different to any other shared path.

/When/ it's not moving, no.

[1]
<http://www.mcdowellbenedetti.com/Projects_2/242%20-%20Hull%20Footbridge/P-Index2_Bridges.html>
--
Matt B

 

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:14:33 +0100 someone who may be "fred2"
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>Here, however we have 'Cyclists dismount' instruction

It isn't an instruction, it is an observation.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

 

[Pyromancer]

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Cheeky
<[email protected]> gently breathed:

>Unless they're bike cops. Mate just got nabbed for turning right
>across a major junction on an all-green pedestrian phase. Bike cop
>said "you give people like us a bad name"!! Got himself a NIP for it
>(failing to observe a traffic sign/signal I presume).

Good. Cyclists who ride through red lights and across pedestrian
crossings on the pedestrian phase should have all their bikes
confiscated and crushed. The law applies to everyone.

--
- DJ Pyromancer, Black Sheep, Leeds. <http://www.sheepish.net>
Hard Rock, Leeds <http://www.hard-rock.org.uk>
Broadband, Dialup, Domains = <http://www.wytches.net> = The UK's Pagan ISP!
<http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk> <http://www.revival.stormshadow.com>

 

[Pyromancer]

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as David
Hansen <[email protected]> gently breathed:
>On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:14:33 +0100 someone who may be "fred2"
><[email protected]> wrote this:-

>>Here, however we have 'Cyclists dismount' instruction

>It isn't an instruction, it is an observation.

I've heard that said many times, but what is it that stops it being an
instruction?

--
- DJ Pyromancer, Black Sheep, Leeds. <http://www.sheepish.net>
Hard Rock, Leeds <http://www.hard-rock.org.uk>
Broadband, Dialup, Domains = <http://www.wytches.net> = The UK's Pagan ISP!
<http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk> <http://www.revival.stormshadow.com>

 

[Tony Raven]

Pyromancer wrote:
> Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as David
> Hansen <[email protected]> gently breathed:
>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:14:33 +0100 someone who may be "fred2"
>> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
>>> Here, however we have 'Cyclists dismount' instruction
>
>> It isn't an instruction, it is an observation.
>
> I've heard that said many times, but what is it that stops it being an
> instruction?
>

Grammar and the lack of the word "must". Would you interpret the
following as instructions or observations?

Birds fly
Fish swim
Dogs bark
Cyclists dismount

Tony

 

[Matt B]

Pyromancer wrote:
> Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as David
> Hansen <[email protected]> gently breathed:
>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:14:33 +0100 someone who may be "fred2"
>> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
>>> Here, however we have 'Cyclists dismount' instruction
>
>> It isn't an instruction, it is an observation.
>
> I've heard that said many times, but what is it that stops it being an
> instruction?

They use the "no cycling" sign when it's and instruction.[1]

[1] <http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/sign053.htm>

--
Matt B

 

[Ian Smith]

On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 09:32:06 +0100, Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
> Pyromancer wrote:
> > Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as David
> > Hansen <[email protected]> gently breathed:
> >> On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:14:33 +0100 someone who may be "fred2"
> >> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
> >
> >>> Here, however we have 'Cyclists dismount' instruction
> >
> >> It isn't an instruction, it is an observation.
> >
> > I've heard that said many times, but what is it that stops it being an
> > instruction?
> >
>
> Grammar and the lack of the word "must". Would you interpret the
> following as instructions or observations?
>
> Birds fly
> Fish swim
> Dogs bark
> Cyclists dismount

cf 'Polish War Memorial' (as seen on teh A40 / M40). It must be very
shiny by now.

regards, Ian SMith
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[Tony Raven]

Ian Smith wrote:
>
> cf 'Polish War Memorial' (as seen on teh A40 / M40). It must be very
> shiny by now.
>

And "Door Alarmed" seen all over the place.

Tony

 

[Paul Boyd]

Matt B said the following on 17/08/2007 08:05:

> No, according to the architects, this one is designed thus: "The slowly
> revolving geometry allows people the unique experience of walking onto
> and riding on the bridge while it opens."[1]

Ah!

> If it is designed to allow for it, then presumably it can only be the
> council who have decided to disallow it.

Quite.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

 

[Paul Boyd]

burtthebike said the following on 16/08/2007 18:33:

> Oh, and Sustrans gave the bridge an award for being so good for
> cyclists. The local paper featured the story and took a picture which
> managed to mask the "cyclists dismount" signs.

I remember this story. You couldn't make it up, and it certainly
doesn't do Sustrans any favours.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

 

[Paul Boyd]

Tony Raven said the following on 17/08/2007 09:32:

> Grammar and the lack of the word "must". Would you interpret the
> following as instructions or observations?

Seriously, what is the legal status of a "Cyclists dismount" sign? If
the latter is, in law, an instruction is there anything to prevent you
getting straight back on your bike again in the absence of a "No
Cycling" sign?

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

 

[Tony Raven]

Paul Boyd wrote:
> Tony Raven said the following on 17/08/2007 09:32:
>
>> Grammar and the lack of the word "must". Would you interpret the
>> following as instructions or observations?
>
> Seriously, what is the legal status of a "Cyclists dismount" sign? If
> the latter is, in law, an instruction is there anything to prevent you
> getting straight back on your bike again in the absence of a "No
> Cycling" sign?
>


It is advisory - there is no law or regulation associated with it and is
essentially there as a backside covering sign for the council. If you
carry on cycling across whatever hazard they have identified and get hit
they can say they did warn you so they are not liable. Nothing more,
nothing less.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2002/023113ag.gif

Tony

 

[squeaker]

On 16 Aug, 22:11, Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Then there's Zaha Hadid, probably the most famous living female
> architect whose architecture has been described as having "dramatic
> sculptural strength and lamentable functional weakness". Her response I
> believe was to say something like functionality is irrelevant, its the
> concept that matters.
>
Ah: a bit like car stylists then

 

[squeaker]

On 17 Aug, 10:35, Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
> Paul Boyd wrote:
> > Tony Raven said the following on 17/08/2007 09:32:
>
> >> Grammar and the lack of the word "must". Would you interpret the
> >> following as instructions or observations?
>
> > Seriously, what is the legal status of a "Cyclists dismount" sign? If
> > the latter is, in law, an instruction is there anything to prevent you
> > getting straight back on your bike again in the absence of a "No
> > Cycling" sign?
>
> It is advisory - there is no law or regulation associated with it and is
> essentially there as a backside covering sign for the council. If you
> carry on cycling across whatever hazard they have identified and get hit
> they can say they did warn you so they are not liable. Nothing more,
> nothing less.http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2002/023113ag.gif
>
> Tony

Erm, might it not be referring to the fact that, if you continue
riding, you will be riding along a footpath, where cycling is
verboten?
The problem with 'Cyclist Dismount' signs is that they get used in a
wide variety of situations (e.g. at the end of a advisory cycle lane
on a road where they are meaningless, not to say dangerous) and
consequently get generally ignored.
The mandatory 'No Cycling' sign requires a local Traffic Regulation
Order, which in many cases would get objected to by the local
constabulary who would have to enforce it, and hence requires more
effort to put in place.