Danger! Danger! (Worst liability waiver?)



I've long been dismayed at the liability waivers for invitational
rides. I understand their purpose - but is it really necessary to
make a bike ride sound like such an extreme danger?

Anyway, I think the all-time champion waiver has arrived by mail.
It's from Columbus Outdoor Pursuits, for GOBA, the Great Ohio Bicycle
Adventure. I've pasted about a third of it below.

(Surprisingly, no mention of meteorite strikes!)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In signing this agreement for myself or for the named participant (if
the participant is under age 18), I know that those participating in
The 2008 Great Ohio Bicycle Adventure (GOBA) will be exposed to the
risks of serious bodily injury, sickness, death, or loss of property
due to the circumstances inherent in this event including the
negligent acts or omissions of others. I also understand and am aware
that there are a variety of specific risks and dangers inherent in a
voluntary bicycling event such as GOBA including, without limitation,
falls, collisions with other bicyclists, motor vehicles or stationary
objects; adverse weather conditions; and those caused by conditions of
the road. I also understand that by participating in GOBA I will be
riding my bicycle on public roads with many other bicyclists, some of
whom may be inexperienced at riding in groups. I also understand that
the large number of bicyclists in GOBA many of whom are inexperienced,
adds a further element of danger.

I understand that during GOBA I may suffer serious bodily injury,
sickness, or death, while walking or travelling via bus or other motor
vehicle or boat, due to my own carelessness or because of the
negligence of others. I further understand that I may be exposed to
these same risks while engaged in other voluntary activities such as
dancing, swimming, and dining during GOBA.

I understand as well that I will be camping outdoors during GOBA and
that this necessarily involves being exposed to the elements including
the risk of unpredictable and possibly dangerous weather conditions
such as severe or violent thunderstorms, rain, hail, lightning, wind,
and tornadoes either during the day or at night. In exchange for being
permitted to participate in GOBA I voluntarily agree to assume all of
these and the other risks inherent in GOBA....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.... and then it gets into permitting medical treatment, required hat
styles, indemnifying & holding harmless, choice of courts of law, and
all the rest.

Dancing! Dining! Wind! Rain!

Has anybody seen a scarier waiver?

- Frank Krygowski
 
[email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
> I've long been dismayed at the liability waivers for invitational
> rides. I understand their purpose - but is it really necessary to
> make a bike ride sound like such an extreme danger?
>
> Anyway, I think the all-time champion waiver has arrived by mail.
> It's from Columbus Outdoor Pursuits, for GOBA, the Great Ohio Bicycle
> Adventure. I've pasted about a third of it below....


> ... and then it gets into permitting medical treatment, required hat
> styles, indemnifying & holding harmless, choice of courts of law, and
> all the rest....


Hat styles? The magic foam type, one presumes?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
[email protected] wrote:
> I've long been dismayed at the liability waivers for invitational
> rides. I understand their purpose - but is it really necessary to
> make a bike ride sound like such an extreme danger?
>
> Anyway, I think the all-time champion waiver has arrived by mail.
> It's from Columbus Outdoor Pursuits, for GOBA, the Great Ohio Bicycle
> Adventure. I've pasted about a third of it below.
>
> (Surprisingly, no mention of meteorite strikes!)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> In signing this agreement for myself or for the named participant (if
> the participant is under age 18), I know that those participating in
> The 2008 Great Ohio Bicycle Adventure (GOBA) will be exposed to the
> risks of serious bodily injury, sickness, death, or loss of property
> due to the circumstances inherent in this event including the
> negligent acts or omissions of others. I also understand and am aware
> that there are a variety of specific risks and dangers inherent in a
> voluntary bicycling event such as GOBA including, without limitation,
> falls, collisions with other bicyclists, motor vehicles or stationary
> objects; adverse weather conditions; and those caused by conditions of
> the road. I also understand that by participating in GOBA I will be
> riding my bicycle on public roads with many other bicyclists, some of
> whom may be inexperienced at riding in groups. I also understand that
> the large number of bicyclists in GOBA many of whom are inexperienced,
> adds a further element of danger.
>
> I understand that during GOBA I may suffer serious bodily injury,
> sickness, or death, while walking or travelling via bus or other motor
> vehicle or boat, due to my own carelessness or because of the
> negligence of others. I further understand that I may be exposed to
> these same risks while engaged in other voluntary activities such as
> dancing, swimming, and dining during GOBA.
>
> I understand as well that I will be camping outdoors during GOBA and
> that this necessarily involves being exposed to the elements including
> the risk of unpredictable and possibly dangerous weather conditions
> such as severe or violent thunderstorms, rain, hail, lightning, wind,
> and tornadoes either during the day or at night. In exchange for being
> permitted to participate in GOBA I voluntarily agree to assume all of
> these and the other risks inherent in GOBA....
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ... and then it gets into permitting medical treatment, required hat
> styles, indemnifying & holding harmless, choice of courts of law, and
> all the rest.
>
> Dancing! Dining! Wind! Rain!
>
> Has anybody seen a scarier waiver?
>
> - Frank Krygowski


I suppose one could hold them responsible for the ride not being fun,
if nothing else.

Joseph
 
On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 19:59:13 -0800 (PST), [email protected] wrote:

[---]

>... and then it gets into permitting medical treatment, required hat
>styles, indemnifying & holding harmless, choice of courts of law, and
>all the rest.


You have too many lawyers in the U.S. The devil finds work for idle
hands.
 
On Feb 9, 3:50 pm, Andrew Price <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 19:59:13 -0800 (PST), [email protected] wrote:
>
> [---]
>
> >... and then it gets into permitting medical treatment, required hat
> >styles, indemnifying & holding harmless, choice of courts of law, and
> >all the rest.

>
> You have too many lawyers in the U.S. The devil finds work for idle
> hands.


Agreed - even though we have one in the family!

Say, could you tell us what the typical bike event waiver looks like
in your country? (Or countries, I suppose.)

- Frank Krygowski
 
On Feb 9, 10:59 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Feb 9, 3:50 pm, Andrew Price <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 19:59:13 -0800 (PST), [email protected] wrote:

>
> > [---]

>
> > >... and then it gets into permitting medical treatment, required hat
> > >styles, indemnifying & holding harmless, choice of courts of law, and
> > >all the rest.

>
> > You have too many lawyers in the U.S.  The devil finds work for idle
> > hands.

>
> Agreed - even though we have one in the family!
>
> Say, could you tell us what the typical bike event waiver looks like
> in your country?  (Or countries, I suppose.)
>
> - Frank Krygowski


I don't recall signing any waivers for the races/rides I've done here
in Norway. All rides require a license from the national cycling
federation. A license is more or less just insurance. There may be
some fine print someplace in relation to getting a license, but I
don't recall it.

Joseph
 
On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 19:59:13 -0800 (PST), [email protected] wrote:
>I understand that during GOBA I may suffer serious bodily injury,
>sickness, or death, while walking or travelling via bus or other motor
>vehicle or boat, due to my own carelessness or because of the
>negligence of others. I further understand that I may be exposed to
>these same risks while engaged in other voluntary activities such as
>dancing, swimming, and dining during GOBA.


I'm not quite clear how one can become sick for dancing.

Did Eeyore get a law degree?

Pat

Email address works as is.
 
On Feb 8, 9:59 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> I've long been dismayed at the liability waivers for invitational
> rides.  I understand their purpose - but is it really necessary to
> make a bike ride sound like such an extreme danger?
>
> Anyway, I think the all-time champion waiver has arrived by mail.
> It's from Columbus Outdoor Pursuits, for GOBA, the Great Ohio Bicycle
> Adventure.  I've pasted about a third of it below.
>
> (Surprisingly, no mention of meteorite strikes!)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---------------------------------------------------
>
> In signing this agreement for myself or for the named participant (if
> the participant is under age 18), I know that those participating in
> The 2008 Great Ohio Bicycle Adventure (GOBA) will be exposed to the
> risks of serious bodily injury, sickness, death, or loss of property
> due to the circumstances inherent in this event including the
> negligent acts or omissions of others. I also understand and am aware
> that there are a variety of specific risks and dangers inherent in a
> voluntary bicycling event such as GOBA including, without limitation,
> falls, collisions with other bicyclists, motor vehicles or stationary
> objects; adverse weather conditions; and those caused by conditions of
> the road. I also understand that by participating in GOBA I will be
> riding my bicycle on public roads with many other bicyclists, some of
> whom may be inexperienced at riding in groups. I also understand that
> the large number of bicyclists in GOBA many of whom are inexperienced,
> adds a further element of danger.
>
> I understand that during GOBA I may suffer serious bodily injury,
> sickness, or death, while walking or travelling via bus or other motor
> vehicle or boat, due to my own carelessness or because of the
> negligence of others. I further understand that I may be exposed to
> these same risks while engaged in other voluntary activities such as
> dancing, swimming, and dining during GOBA.
>
> I understand as well that I will be camping outdoors during GOBA and
> that this necessarily involves being exposed to the elements including
> the risk of unpredictable and possibly dangerous weather conditions
> such as severe or violent thunderstorms, rain, hail, lightning, wind,
> and tornadoes either during the day or at night. In exchange for being
> permitted to participate in GOBA I voluntarily agree to assume all of
> these and the other risks inherent in GOBA....
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---------------------------------------------------
>
> ... and then it gets into permitting medical treatment, required hat
> styles, indemnifying & holding harmless, choice of courts of law, and
> all the rest.
>
> Dancing!  Dining!  Wind!  Rain!
>
> Has anybody seen a scarier waiver?
>
> - Frank Krygowski


Speaking as a lawyer, I don't have any problem with it. Since I went
to law school in the 1960s, there has been an explosion in tort
liability, reaching into nooks and crannies that one never would have
imagined. Of direct interest to the kinds of non-profit organizations
that sponsor bike rides has been the effective abolition of once
almost universal charitable and religious common law immunity. Short
of statutory protection, which I believe has happened in some places,
though memory fails me on the details, the working assumption would be
that ride sponsors may be liable to an furthest extent of a trial
lawyer's imagination.

Consider, for example, this argument - adapted only slightly from a
case in which I was actually involved - on behalf of the family of a
man killed when he hit a sinkhole and veered into the path of an
oncoming car: the sponsors knew or should have known the Smith road
had a bunch of sinkholes, but negligently failed to re-route on Jones
road, just a mile away. Also, the city is liable for not fixing the
sinkhole, and architect who designed the road some years earlier is
liable for failing to properly specify how to compact the base, the
contractor is liable for not compacting it properly, and the inspector
is liable for watching the contractor mess up. The only change I made
was to substitute an event sponsor for the governmental agency that
had routed a bike path on the road in issue. In the case at issue,
everyone but the auto driver going the other way chipped into a six
figure settlement. The family went to trial against the other driver
and lost.

My solution is legislation to restore a broad degree of charitable and
religious immunity. But there's a powerful political party that is in
the hip pocket of the trial lawyers' lobby, among other lobbies, and a
legislative solution is difficult. So you can look for prudent event
sponsors to be asking for waivers.
 
On Feb 9, 11:42 pm, Ron Wallenfang <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 8, 9:59 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
> > Has anybody seen a scarier waiver?

>
> Speaking as a lawyer, I don't have any problem with it. Since I went
> to law school in the 1960s, there has been an explosion in tort
> liability, reaching into nooks and crannies that one never would have
> imagined. ...
>
> My solution is legislation to restore a broad degree of charitable and
> religious immunity. But there's a powerful political party that is in
> the hip pocket of the trial lawyers' lobby, among other lobbies, and a
> legislative solution is difficult. So you can look for prudent event
> sponsors to be asking for waivers.


But seriously, is it really necessary to contrive a list of a dozen or
so improbable, terrifying disasters to construct a workable waiver?

As many here know, I'm dismayed by the fashion for treating bicycling
as extreme and death-defying. I think it hurts cyclists as a whole,
because it discourages people from riding, and it leads to
unsympathetic motorists, cops, judges and juries. ("What the hell is
he doing riding his bike on the road?" and "He should have known the
risks before he got hit by the guy running the stop sign.")

I understand that there are people who need to be sued; but yes, I do
think there are far too many predatory lawyers.

Still, other event organizers seem to get by with waivers that are far
less fear-mongering. I thought this one went far beyond "excessive,"
and well into "ludicrous."

Do you really disagree? Should _all_ waivers read like that?

- Frank Krygowski
 
On Feb 9, 10:00 pm, [email protected] wrote:

> As many here know, I'm dismayed by the fashion for treating bicycling
> as extreme and death-defying. I think it hurts cyclists as a whole,
> because it discourages people from riding, and it leads to
> unsympathetic motorists, cops, judges and juries. ("What the hell is
> he doing riding his bike on the road?" and "He should have known the
> risks before he got hit by the guy running the stop sign.")
>
> I understand that there are people who need to be sued; but yes, I do
> think there are far too many predatory lawyers.
>
> Still, other event organizers seem to get by with waivers that are far
> less fear-mongering. I thought this one went far beyond "excessive,"
> and well into "ludicrous."


At least the waiver you cited makes it clear that the dangers are not
uniquely attributable to bicycling, but also apply to numerous other
activities, incl. walking, bus riding, other motor vehicle riding,
boating, swimming, eating, dancing, camping, etc.

So if we're going to need waiver forms of some kind, I'd rather see
this kind of all-inclusive one vs. one that only mentions cycling as
having potential hazards.
 
On Feb 10, 7:00 am, [email protected] wrote:
> On Feb 9, 11:42 pm, Ron Wallenfang <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 8, 9:59 pm, [email protected] wrote:

>
> > > Has anybody seen a scarier waiver?

>
> > Speaking as a lawyer, I don't have any problem with it.  Since I went
> > to law school in the 1960s, there has been an explosion in tort
> > liability, reaching into nooks and crannies that one never would have
> > imagined. ...

>
> > My solution is legislation to restore a broad degree of charitable and
> > religious immunity.  But there's a powerful political party that is in
> > the hip pocket of the trial lawyers' lobby, among other lobbies, and a
> > legislative solution is difficult.  So you can look for prudent event
> > sponsors to be asking for waivers.

>
> But seriously, is it really necessary to contrive a list of a dozen or
> so improbable, terrifying disasters to construct a workable waiver?
>
> As many here know, I'm dismayed by the fashion for treating bicycling
> as extreme and death-defying.  I think it hurts cyclists as a whole,
> because it discourages people from riding, and it leads to
> unsympathetic motorists, cops, judges and juries.  ("What the hell is
> he doing riding his bike on the road?" and "He should have known the
> risks before he got hit by the guy running the stop sign.")
>
> I understand that there are people who need to be sued; but yes, I do
> think there are far too many predatory lawyers.
>
> Still, other event organizers seem to get by with waivers that are far
> less fear-mongering.  I thought this one went far beyond "excessive,"
> and well into "ludicrous."
>
> Do you really disagree?  Should _all_ waivers read like that?
>
> - Frank Krygowski


I agree. The laundry list style makes it seem like it is all inclusive
(and off putting at that!).

It should be enough to say that unforeen things may happen resulting
in injury.

Joseph
 
On Feb 10, 12:00 am, [email protected] wrote:

>
> Still, other event organizers seem to get by with waivers that are far
> less fear-mongering.  I thought this one went far beyond "excessive,"
> and well into "ludicrous."
>
> Do you really disagree?  Should _all_ waivers read like that?
>
> - Frank Krygowski


I don't disagree with that. A short form, worded well, would be as
effective.
 
Frank wrote:
> Still, other event organizers seem to get by with waivers that are far
> less fear-mongering. I thought this one went far beyond "excessive,"
> and well into "ludicrous."


Maybe GOBA 2007 featured an excess of whining ("Make it stop
raining!") and maybe someone went dancing in cleats on a city street.

I'm on the GOBA discussion group, will float this over there.

--Karen D.
 
Ron Wallenfang wrote:
> ...
> Consider, for example, this argument - adapted only slightly from a
> case in which I was actually involved - on behalf of the family of a
> man killed when he hit a sinkhole and veered into the path of an
> oncoming car: the sponsors knew or should have known the Smith road
> had a bunch of sinkholes, but negligently failed to re-route on Jones
> road, just a mile away. Also, the city is liable for not fixing the
> sinkhole, and architect who designed the road some years earlier is
> liable for failing to properly specify how to compact the base, the
> contractor is liable for not compacting it properly, and the inspector
> is liable for watching the contractor mess up....


Hey, when did architects get into the business of designing roads and
pavements?

I have the understanding that the civil drawings would be signed and
stamped by a PE, not an architect (at least they have been on the few
hundred plan sets I have looked at).

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
On Feb 10, 8:38 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Ron Wallenfang wrote:
> > ...
> > Consider, for example, this argument - adapted only slightly from a
> > case in which I was actually involved - on behalf of the family of a
> > man killed when he hit a sinkhole and veered into the path of an
> > oncoming car:  the sponsors knew or should have known the Smith road
> > had a bunch of sinkholes, but negligently failed to re-route on Jones
> > road, just a mile away.  Also, the city is liable for not fixing the
> > sinkhole, and architect who designed the road some years earlier is
> > liable for failing to properly specify how to compact the base, the
> > contractor is liable for not compacting it properly, and the inspector
> > is liable for watching the contractor mess up....

>
> Hey, when did architects get into the business of designing roads and
> pavements?
>
> I have the understanding that the civil drawings would be signed and
> stamped by a PE, not an architect (at least they have been on the few
> hundred plan sets I have looked at).
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful


You are correct. In the case at issue, where I in fact represented
the design professional, it was a PE. I use the terms "architect" and
"professional engineer" interchangeably, because the construction
contracts I write include definitions that do that. Specifically AIA
1997 forms B141 and B151, and 2007 forms B101 and B102 are called
"Standard Form of Agreement Between Owner and Architect", but are
regularly used for PEs as well, with the contract draftsman adding the
needed clarification. But the reader here would have no reason to
know that. Mea culpa.
 
I wrote:
> MaybeGOBA2007 featured an excess of whining ("Make it stop
> raining!") and maybe someone went dancing in cleats on a city street.
>
> I'm on the GOBA discussion group, will float this over there.


A pair of respondents are saying that GOBA has always used this waiver
(one says she's done 11 GOBAs, and went on to explain the concept of
liability to moi, thankyouverymuch). But Columbus AYH/Outdoor Pursuits
would not have known, in the first year or two, that participants
would be dancing or swimming or "dining."

FWIW, GOBA was probably the first major ride to prohibit participation
by children of a certain age (two years old, if memory serves). The
reason? Someone brought a trailer tot on a local COP ride, an incident
occurred, and either the parent sued or TPTB decided to reduce their
exposure. Many family riders were displeased with the GOBA action, "we
have to stay home because Jeffie's birthday is two weeks after the
ride," etc. I have no knowledge of the current restrictions.

HTH

--Karen D.
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:22a04825-f2b3-4bef-a948-eef00ed6a9ef@q77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> I've long been dismayed at the liability waivers for invitational
> rides. I understand their purpose - but is it really necessary to
> make a bike ride sound like such an extreme danger?
>
> Anyway, I think the all-time champion waiver has arrived by mail.
> It's from Columbus Outdoor Pursuits, for GOBA, the Great Ohio Bicycle
> Adventure. I've pasted about a third of it below.
>
> (Surprisingly, no mention of meteorite strikes!)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> In signing this agreement for myself or for the named participant (if
> the participant is under age 18), I know that those participating in
> The 2008 Great Ohio Bicycle Adventure (GOBA) will be exposed to the
> risks of serious bodily injury, sickness, death, or loss of property
> due to the circumstances inherent in this event including the
> negligent acts or omissions of others. I also understand and am aware
> that there are a variety of specific risks and dangers inherent in a
> voluntary bicycling event such as GOBA including, without limitation,
> falls, collisions with other bicyclists, motor vehicles or stationary
> objects; adverse weather conditions; and those caused by conditions of
> the road. I also understand that by participating in GOBA I will be
> riding my bicycle on public roads with many other bicyclists, some of
> whom may be inexperienced at riding in groups. I also understand that
> the large number of bicyclists in GOBA many of whom are inexperienced,
> adds a further element of danger.
>
> I understand that during GOBA I may suffer serious bodily injury,
> sickness, or death, while walking or travelling via bus or other motor
> vehicle or boat, due to my own carelessness or because of the
> negligence of others. I further understand that I may be exposed to
> these same risks while engaged in other voluntary activities such as
> dancing, swimming, and dining during GOBA.
>
> I understand as well that I will be camping outdoors during GOBA and
> that this necessarily involves being exposed to the elements including
> the risk of unpredictable and possibly dangerous weather conditions
> such as severe or violent thunderstorms, rain, hail, lightning, wind,
> and tornadoes either during the day or at night. In exchange for being
> permitted to participate in GOBA I voluntarily agree to assume all of
> these and the other risks inherent in GOBA....
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ... and then it gets into permitting medical treatment, required hat
> styles, indemnifying & holding harmless, choice of courts of law, and
> all the rest.
>
> Dancing! Dining! Wind! Rain!
>
> Has anybody seen a scarier waiver?
>
> - Frank Krygowski


thats why i have nothing to do whatsoever with group sponsered rides

peter