Danger of carbon fiber wheels delaminating

[cyclintom]

I previously bought a set of 50 mm deep Carbon Fiber rims. These were clinchers and were 23 mm wide on the brake surfaces. These have performed faultlessly.

But I didn't want to have to carry around all of the 2 lbs of flat repair stuff - the Topeak bag, multitool, two spare tubes, two CO2 cartridges and the tool to use them and a patch kit is needed.

So I decided to go to tubeless as I have successfully used on Campy and Fulcrum aluminum wheelsets. They were selling the 25 mm wide tubeless wheelsets nearly as cheaply as the clincher rims.

I bought a set and they arrived. I also wanted to try 28 mm tires on my Colnago so I was mounting a set of Michelin Pro4 Endurance tires like I had used on my Pinarello Stelvio. The front appeared to mount and hold air as normal for a new mount. Usually it takes a couple of days for all of the small leaks around the sidewalls to seal. You just pump it up until it hold air pretty well and then go for a ride and that jiggles everything into place and you don't have to worry about flats again.

When I was inflating the rear tire and inflating it, there was a loud POP! and I put the wheel into the wheelstand and it was an inch out of true. I assumed this was from delamination but as the wheel was spinning in the stand the air was draining out of it and it came back into true. I pulled the tire off and looked carefully at the entire rim but couldn't see anything. I contacted the seller on Ebay and they sent me a rim which I've covered elsewhere.

In any case I ordered a second wheelset from another manufacturer. They came in pretty fast so they must have gotten to the boat just as it was leaving.

I discovered with the apparently good front wheel that there's insufficient room on the CLX 3.0 to use 28 mm tires. Conveniently Vittoria just released the Corsa Speed tubeless tires so I ordered a set from ProBikeKit. It took a month to get here so it was just a couple of days ago I tried putting them on. I had a lot of problems getting them to push up onto the step that all tubeless rims have. In fact I used up 5 CO2 cartridges without getting one properly mounted. So I had to order another lifetime supply. I expected them to arrive in another week but they were here this morning!

I mounted the new tires and inflated them and they didn't fill properly still. They were spraying the sealant all over the place. Finally they seemed to mount properly. The air pressure was low from all of the leakage getting them on properly. so I stuck a pump on and started pumping them up at around 65 psi they started TICing and when I got to 80 PSI they exploded loudly and the way the tire felt I though that it had broken the bead. I tried the other wheel and it did the same thing. When the pressure got to 70 psi or so it began making funny noises and at 80 psi BANG!

I called Vittoria America up and gave them a piece of my mind and they were the nicest peop0le in the world and just gave me a return ID and said that they would replace them.

So I went through the process of taking them off with all of that sealant inside. I got them off and there didn't seem to be anything wrong with the tires. So I rubbed by fingers along the top of the rims and on was delaminated for about 10 inches while the other was delaminated a third of the way around the one side of the rim. I kept the wheel box but I cannot return them through Ebay until I communicate with the seller.

Now the tube bed on the clincher wheels is completely different than that of the tubeless so I don't expect any trouble with them. But what is important to note is that probably all 50 mm deep carbon rims are made by the same manufacturer. This makes them all suspect no matter whose decal is on the rims.

If you want the advantages of a good aero section that you can get from carbon 50 mm wheels you should think more about a clincher set. These have more re-enforcement around the brake area.

 

[Froze]

Now see, this is how Tom writes when he doesn't paste and clip from the internet, his thoughts are scattered, he has frequent misspells, and it's full of BS.

 

[BrianNystrom]

Didn't he post the same thing about failing rims a while back? Yet he keeps buying rims from the same vendor, despite suffering multiple rim failures. They say that the definition of "insanity" is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. Hmmm.

For all the money he's wasted on CO2 cartridges, he could have bought a compressor or a pump designed for seating tubeless tires. Just sayin'...

So he's not going to carry flat repair supplies on rides now? That's just brilliant!

 

[cyclintom]

Didn't he post the same thing about failing rims a while back? Yet he keeps buying rims from the same vendor, despite suffering multiple rim failures. They say that the definition of "insanity" is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. Hmmm.

For all the money he's wasted on CO2 cartridges, he could have bought a compressor or a pump designed for seating tubeless tires. Just sayin'...

So he's not going to carry flat repair supplies on rides now? That's just brilliant!

The only manufacturers I see not selling all carbon tubeless rims are 3T, Venn and one other which I forget. And the weight of these are 200 grams heavier than other carbon wheels. All of the major manufacturers have now changed over to aluminum rims with carbon fairings or do not sell anything other than clinchers or tubulars.

Because of the necessary wall shape of a tubeless they do not lend themselves easily to tubeless tires for racing.

Exactly why are you disputing these sorts of things Bryan? How often do you race? Do you think that 200 grams of additional weight on a TT tubeless wheel is going to change anyone's TT times? Or are you saying that people testing the PowerPod are the voices of authority about wheels and tires?

We know one thing - the Specialized Roubaix tires are NOT used on TT bikes so of what difference does it make if the picture of someone's TT bike had the sponsors tires on it and not some else they might actually use during a race? The Vittoria's have so much less rolling resistance that it would be pretty stupid for anyone to use anything else.

Specialized's TT tire is the S-works Turbo so is there some reason you're arguing about this? The Roubaix has so much rolling resistance that they don't even include them in the tests.

 

[BrianNystrom]

Wow, another bunch of non-sequiturs spewed all over this page. What does any of this nonsense have to do with what I posted...or what you originally posted for that matter? There's no way to make any sense of this ****.

 

[Froze]

Didn't he post the same thing about failing rims a while back? Yet he keeps buying rims from the same vendor, despite suffering multiple rim failures. They say that the definition of "insanity" is doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result. Hmmm.

For all the money he's wasted on CO2 cartridges, he could have bought a compressor or a pump designed for seating tubeless tires. Just sayin'...

So he's not going to carry flat repair supplies on rides now? That's just brilliant!

Well we all know the answer about his insanity, no need to hash that again!

Bob, you're forgetting something, he's a 78 year old current racer that cranks out 600 watts for an hour, he can't be wasting time with using a pump, he has to go go go; and he can't be slowed down by inferior rims, he has to have carbon tubeless rims and he has to be able to buy them cheap.

Fix a flat from now on? Nah, he just take out his cell phone out of his seat bag and call his wife that I arrested on that dope farm to come get him. Actually as strange as that sounds a lot of riders don't carry around flat repair supplies anymore, you know the weight of the flat tools, patches and pumps slows you down to much (actually that's an excuse, what they're really saying is that they don't know how to fix a flat), so they simply whip out their cell phones and call their mommies to come get their little boy who can't fix a flat. I can sort of accept a person not being mechanically inclined and wouldn't know how to fix something that broke on the bike, but not being able to fix a flat? if they can't fix a flat then they should never stray any further from home then they can comfortably walk back home. I show guys every once in awhile how to fix a flat because they're standing on the side of the road scratching their head over a flat and nothing to fix it with, So I show them how, then I give them the tools and start the process all over from start to finish with them doing it while I talk them through it. Most halfway intelligent people will know how to fix a flat after I'm done showing them and they do it, while I know they won't be proficient at it till they get more practice but at least they'll know how to fix a flat.

 

[cyclintom]

Wow, another bunch of non-sequiturs spewed all over this page. What does any of this nonsense have to do with what I posted...or what you originally posted for that matter? There's no way to make any sense of this ****.

Why did you avoid the questions Brian?

 

[Froze]

Tom, Brian can't respond to any question you have because as always you're questions make no sense, and that's why he responded the way he did, and it's the same way we all respond to you because you make no sense.

 

[BrianNystrom]

Sad, but true.

Seriously, did he suffer some kind of head injury? I've seen something along that line alluded to in other posts, but I haven't gotten the whole story. Something's obviously wrong with him, as he's clearly got cognitive issues.

 

[Froze]

Supposedly he had a bike accident and woke up in the hospital, not sure how long ago this was or if his story is even true since he tells so many lies it's difficult to separate fact from fiction. Supposedly as well he still sees a neurologist for what I guess is on going problems which come to light when he writes on this forum. He claims the hit to the head did nothing to him but it had to. I'm going to assume that the accident and the head trauma is a true story, and I'm going to assume that he does indeed have to continue to see a neurologist due to ongoing medical issues with his head injury. Even if my assumptions are correct I can't see how that excuses him from acting like a jerk towards all of us, and coming up with fantasy stories, I could understand his inability to comprehend due to the injury, but what I can't understand is how he will fight us to say he comprehends just fine and it's the rest of us that are not comprehending. At some point you would have to recognize once that it has been pointed out that you made a mistake do to failure to comprehend and simply apologize for that...if he were to do that whenever that occurred we could work with him and be friendly, but he doesn't do that and just charges in like a bull in a glass shop, which then becomes an issue with stubborn pride, and that's not a head injury problem.

I'm sure Tom is reading this, hopefully he will come to his senses, which I doubt that he will since he hasn't so far, when he knows he's failed to comprehend, apologize for that and apologize for falsely accusing someone of something they didn't say, or falsely reporting wrong facts and information, when confronted take it like a man and reword what he said to take care of the mistake and take the blame for his wrong words.

Like I said I can have sympathy for someone who has/had some sort of major head injury and can't get their thoughts down right and apologizes and fixes his wrong and listens to us, I can't have sympathy for someone who is blinded by their stubbornness and their pride. All he's doing is isolating himself from others here and perhaps at home. Being a person of 78 years of age is no excuse for not learning from one's mistakes and admitting their wrong and letting others help him.

 

[BrianNystrom]

The reason I asked is that I'm dealing with an elderly person with dementia and Tom exhibits some of the same symptoms. Specifically, he seems to get "overloaded" or "overstimulated" and becomes confused and disoriented. In his case, the result is a "brain dump" of unrelated thoughts on this forum. Fortunately, the person in my life is calm enough to have a discussion with and explain things that they have misconstrued. They also understand that they have a problem and appreciate our patience and help in dealing with it. We're very fortunate in that regard.

If Tom does have a brain injury, he's apparently in complete denial about it, which I've been told is pretty typical. The belligerence is a result of refusing to accept that he may be confused or mistaken about something. It's clear that he's struggling to be relevant and to contribute to the discussions, but he's unaware of how badly he's screwing up. It can be very difficult for people to understand that their mental capacity has diminished.

I was really taken aback the first time I responded to him to try to explain to him how to improve his tire changing technique and he lashed out at me for it. Since then, I haven't tolerated his misinformation or know-it-all attitude, because as you say, he's just being a jerk and is unwilling to learn anything. Perhaps the best thing would be to just ignore his posts. If he wants to keep effectively "talking to himself", that's fine. By now, I imagine that most people here have realized that you can't take his posts as fact and they're probably tired of the acrimonious responses from me, you and CampyBob. Few others contribute to these threads, so I suspect that most others here just ignore them.

 

[cyclintom]

The reason I asked is that I'm dealing with an elderly person with dementia and Tom exhibits some of the same symptoms. Specifically, he seems to get "overloaded" or "overstimulated" and becomes confused and disoriented. In his case, the result is a "brain dump" of unrelated thoughts on this forum. Fortunately, the person in my life is calm enough to have a discussion with and explain things that they have misconstrued. They also understand that they have a problem and appreciate our patience and help in dealing with it. We're very fortunate in that regard.

If Tom does have a brain injury, he's apparently in complete denial about it, which I've been told is pretty typical. The belligerence is a result of refusing to accept that he may be confused or mistaken about something. It's clear that he's struggling to be relevant and to contribute to the discussions, but he's unaware of how badly he's screwing up. It can be very difficult for people to understand that their mental capacity has diminished.

I was really taken aback the first time I responded to him to try to explain to him how to improve his tire changing technique and he lashed out at me for it. Since then, I haven't tolerated his misinformation or know-it-all attitude, because as you say, he's just being a jerk and is unwilling to learn anything. Perhaps the best thing would be to just ignore his posts. If he wants to keep effectively "talking to himself", that's fine. By now, I imagine that most people here have realized that you can't take his posts as fact and they're probably tired of the acrimonious responses from me, you and CampyBob. Few others contribute to these threads, so I suspect that most others here just ignore them.

Brian - your comments are always at least amusing. YOU were going to improve MY tire changing technique because it is something you believe is difficult and you have some technical insights into. I can't attack you for that, I have a very hard time not laughing. What sort of IQ do you have that you'd think that tire changing "technique" exists?

You make stupid comments like :"And surprise he was using tubulars" as if some youTube video maker is an expert on the subject of lower rolling resistance. You agreed with CampyBob when he pointed out a posting of some Pro's TT bike that had tubulars on it as if that was PROOF that the pro's use tubulars. CampyBob was using that as an example that all the pros use tubulars proved nothing at all. The Specialized TT tires are the S-Works Turbo. So that was nothing more than a wheel they pulled off the shelf for the photo shot and was not indicative of what tires pros use. That was probably nothing more than an old training wheel.

Well, I'm sure that they pros do use tubulars since as I pointed out, a pro mechanic emailed me after one of CampyBob's rants and said that CampyBob was right but for completely different reasons than he was ranting on about. And I gave everyone here the information he gave me. None of these guys is going to post here because all it would take is one posting and you and the others would be telling them they don't know what they're talking about.

The entire reason for a Forum is the EXCHANGE OF IDEAS and not what you and Froze and CampyBob seem to see it as - a means to show your superiority over others.

I'm using the WattZit and can see how it works. You haven't BUT you can tell me all about it. I have used carbon rims and have actually witnessed the problems with them and you haven't but you can tell us all about them.

The fact that I actually do things and try things and report on them here seems to intimidate you. I suggest you grow up a little. If you don't like what I write and you have no real information to add, then just don't read the thread anymore. It certainly is no skin off of my nose.

The stuff that you three have been doing chases people off of the forum.

 

[BrianNystrom]

Brian - your comments are always at least amusing. YOU were going to improve MY tire changing technique because it is something you believe is difficult and you have some technical insights into. I can't attack you for that, I have a very hard time not laughing. What sort of IQ do you have that you'd think that tire changing "technique" exists?

No Tom, YOU were having trouble with pinch flatting when installing tubes and I offered some insights into how to prevent that, and did so in a polite and respectful manner. Or course, you completely rejected any advice and proclaimed that you know more than me, despite the fact that I've worked in the bike biz and have changed thousands of flats. Instead of having a rational discussion, you immediately attacked me.

That's what happened Tom, regardless of what you think you know, and the evidence is in the posts. Be my guest to show me anything otherwise.

You make stupid comments like :"And surprise he was using tubulars" as if some youTube video maker is an expert on the subject of lower rolling resistance.

No Tom, I merely pointed out that he was on tubulars because I knew it would send you into a stupid rant like this one. Obviously, you took the bait. I have never made a single statement regarding tubulars having lower rolling resistance. Again, show me the quote, Tom. <irrational rant deleted>

The entire reason for a Forum is the EXCHANGE OF IDEAS

That's absolutely correct, but information needs to be correct to be useful. Much, if not most, of what you post is just plain wrong. When people tried to point out errors to you in a nice manner, YOU jumped all over them and started making up all kinds of BS about them. Now we're all sick of your stupidity and stubbornness and we've stopped cutting you any slack. YOU put yourself in this position, Tom.

I'm using the WattZit and can see how it works. You haven't BUT you can tell me all about it.

No, I posted what I saw on their website. If you say that the latest version works better, that's fine, but I'd like to see some evidence. The guy who's making these really should update the info on his website, as it's going to kill any possibility of this become a commercially viable product.

I have used carbon rims and have actually witnessed the problems with them and you haven't but you can tell us all about them.

Yes, I have used carbon rims and still do. I also ride with a lot of people who use carbon rims and I see what they experience, both good and bad. Again, you're just making up **** to suit your desired narrative.

The fact that I actually do things and try things and report on them here seems to intimidate you.

Now that's really RICH and borderline hilarious! No Tom, you don't intimidate me at all. Appropriate adjectives would be "annoy" or occasionally "amuse".

I suggest you grow up a little.

I suspect that you're the only one here who doesn't realize how utterly hypocritical that statement is.

If you don't like what I write and you have no real information to add, then just don't read the thread anymore. It certainly is no skin off of my nose.

I'll make a deal with you, Tom; you stop posting misinformation and I'll stop correcting it.
After the discussion I had with Froze about your head injury, I was feeling some real sympathy for you. You've pretty much killed that.

The stuff that you three have been doing chases people off of the forum.

Well, if they stop reading the misinformation that you post that could cause them to waste their money or potentially get hurt, perhaps it's a good thing if they avoid these threads. Initially, I thought that CampyBob was just being a jerk toward you, but now I understand that he's just fed up with your bull-headedness and stupidity. I don't expect that you'll be able to grasp this but the truth is that you've brought all of this on yourself. You are one seriously sad creature, Tom.

 

[cyclintom]

No Tom, YOU were having trouble with pinch flatting when installing tubes and I offered some insights into how to prevent that, and did so in a polite and respectful manner. Or course, you completely rejected any advice and proclaimed that you know more than me, despite the fact that I've worked in the bike biz and have changed thousands of flats. Instead of having a rational discussion, you immediately attacked me.

That's what happened Tom, regardless of what you think you know, and the evidence is in the posts. Be my guest to show me anything otherwise.


No Tom, I merely pointed out that he was on tubulars because I knew it would send you into a stupid rant like this one. Obviously, you took the bait. I have never made a single statement regarding tubulars having lower rolling resistance. Again, show me the quote, Tom. <irrational rant deleted>


That's absolutely correct, but information needs to be correct to be useful. Much, if not most, of what you post is just plain wrong. When people tried to point out errors to you in a nice manner, YOU jumped all over them and started making up all kinds of BS about them. Now we're all sick of your stupidity and stubbornness and we've stopped cutting you any slack. YOU put yourself in this position, Tom.


No, I posted what I saw on their website. If you say that the latest version works better, that's fine, but I'd like to see some evidence. The guy who's making these really should update the info on his website, as it's going to kill any possibility of this become a commercially viable product.


Yes, I have used carbon rims and still do. I also ride with a lot of people who use carbon rims and I see what they experience, both good and bad. Again, you're just making up **** to suit your desired narrative.


Now that's really RICH and borderline hilarious! No Tom, you don't intimidate me at all. Appropriate adjectives would be "annoy" or occasionally "amuse".


I suspect that you're the only one here who doesn't realize how utterly hypocritical that statement is.


I'll make a deal with you, Tom; you stop posting misinformation and I'll stop correcting it.
After the discussion I had with Froze about your head injury, I was feeling some real sympathy for you. You've pretty much killed that.


Well, if they stop reading the misinformation that you post that could cause them to waste their money or potentially get hurt, perhaps it's a good thing if they avoid these threads. Initially, I thought that CampyBob was just being a jerk toward you, but now I understand that he's just fed up with your bull-headedness and stupidity. I don't expect that you'll be able to grasp this but the truth is that you've brought all of this on yourself. You are one seriously sad creature, Tom.

Exactly WHERE did you make these nice polite suggestions for preventing pinch flats again? You never even made a single entry on the string about Kyseriums being extremely difficult to mount Panasonics. What's more, it wasn't just me but the bike owner and then when he finally had one go flat overnight he took it into a shop and HE pinched a tube. Everyone on that string were complaining about Kyseriums so why didn't you pop on and politely tell everyone that they didn't know what they were doing?

You've used carbon rims and still do but are telling us all that they're junk?

You are willing to say that a power meter isn't any good by looking at a primary video.

Uh, yeah, someone ELSE is passing on misinformation.

 

[BrianNystrom]

Exactly WHERE did you make these nice polite suggestions for preventing pinch flats again? You never even made a single entry on the string about Kyseriums being extremely difficult to mount Panasonics. What's more, it wasn't just me but the bike owner and then when he finally had one go flat overnight he took it into a shop and HE pinched a tube. Everyone on that string were complaining about Kyseriums so why didn't you pop on and politely tell everyone that they didn't know what they were doing?

So now you're criticizing me for a thread that I wasn't involved in? What an utterly stupid thing to even suggest; it's completely insane! For all I know, that was before I ever posted anything on this forum.

You've used carbon rims and still do but are telling us all that they're junk?

I never said anything like that. Get that through your thick head and quit making up this ****!.

You have absolutely no grasp of reality Tom. I truly pity you, as you must be isolating yourself from everyone around with your conceit, belligerence and stupidity. You are a seriously sick person and you need professional help.

 

[Froze]

Well Brian, now you see what Bob and I have gone through, I've asked him repeatedly to show me where he claims I've written stuff and he HASN'T ONCE been able to do that, instead he goes off on another lying tangent.

The problem is we HAVE TO RESPOND to his **** because otherwise other people who may not be forum members read something he wrote that is completely wrong and think that's the way to to do something and go off and damage their bike, get hurt, or worse.

Personally I think Tom needs to be banned. I'm sorry Tom, but enough is enough, brain damaged or not, you're causing severe damage to this forum with your stupidity and if I was the mod you would be gone. Not sure why the mods keep you around, I hope it's not for entertainment value because that value is at a HUGE negative loss to this forum.

 

[BrianNystrom]

I didn't know that this forum was moderated. I can't believe that someone hasn't stepped in before now and cut him off.

I was thinking this afternoon that maybe we can just come up with a standard warning message to post in response to any threads he starts. Something to the effect of:

"For anyone reading the above post from "cyclintom" , do not take his word for anything, as he frequently posts inaccurate or misleading information that could be potentially dangerous. Make sure that you double-check everything using reliable sources of information before making any decisions that could result in physical or financial harm to you or anyone else. We don't think he does this maliciously, he simply doesn't know what he's talking about and refuses to listen to anyone who attempts to correct him, so don't waste your time. Unfortunately, he seems to be a lost cause."

That way, we can just back off and let him "talk to himself" here and not have to worry that he's going to get anyone hurt. It's sad that it's come to this, but I'm sick to death of his BS and I'm tired of wasting my time on him. He's not worth the effort as he's basically just become a troll.

 

[Froze]

Brian you're a genius! You can add that paragraph about Tom by putting it in your signature like I did.

 

[cyclintom]

So now you're criticizing me for a thread that I wasn't involved in? What an utterly stupid thing to even suggest; it's completely insane! For all I know, that was before I ever posted anything on this forum.


I never said anything like that. Get that through your thick head and quit making up this ****!.

You have absolutely no grasp of reality Tom. I truly pity you, as you must be isolating yourself from everyone around with your conceit, belligerence and stupidity. You are a seriously sick person and you need professional help.

This just how whacked out you are Brian:

"No Tom, YOU were having trouble with pinch flatting when installing tubes and I offered some insights into how to prevent that, and did so in a polite and respectful manner."

"]So now you're criticizing me for a thread that I wasn't involved in? "

So since that was the only thread in which I was complaining about pinch flatting perhaps you can explain how you were so politely telling me how I was doing this wrong?

Or about your claim: "Didn't he post the same thing about failing rims a while back? Yet he keeps buying rims from the same vendor, despite suffering multiple rim failures."

After I stated that I had bought all three sets - the clinchers and the two sets of tubeless from different venders who all had different names on the wheels. But somehow that escaped your notice and here you are saying these things.

Perhaps you and Froze can get your minds together tight enough to think hard enough to read English instead of your present love session with the words "non-sequitur and "no grasp of reality".

You pretty much showed your grasp of reality when you said you were polite in a thread you never even posted in.

 

[Froze]

LOL!!!! Man this Tommy boys stupidity just keep getting stupider by the day.