dear forumers: lance is now retired
- Thread starter mr tibbs
- Start date
I'm not a great LA fan myself but I have to wonder, how much cycling will there be for us to get back to.mr tibbs said:
Let's face it, he brought a lot of people and attention to our sport. But, here's hoping that those who came for LA will stay around because they enjoy the sport.
I'd be willing to bet that on this forum, there has been more Lance bashing than ass kissing. I don't condone posts that heap praise upon Armstrong by criticizing other riders, but as a general premise, I don't see why posts highlighting his accomplishments should bother you so. Instead of questioning the motivation of "Lance lovers", perhaps you should examine the etiology of your own meanspiritedness.mr tibbs said:
Cycling is a niche sport. Some people use cycling to distance themselves from other, non-cyclists. We feel more superior to drivers and pedestrians. We are also more often arrogant than other, more team-oriented athletes - soccer or basketball players, for example.rejobako said:
Lance bashing has nothing to do with Lance. It has everything to do with being a contrarian - taking an opposite position to the one taken by majority. If many people who heard of cycling a little bit are amazed by Lance's 7 wins, the only reason to separate yourself from the crowd is to start bashing him. That will make you cool again and will "elevate" you above masses. Some national feelings mixed in here too. People are not used to american domination and will constantly point out that Lance is an arrogant american from Texas. I find it ironic as the biggest Lance bashers also happen to be the most arrogant posters on this board, constantly resorting to personal attacks and using logic of "how dare you disagree with me, you must know nothing about cycling!".
The LA bashers often cannot explain why they dislike the man so much. Would they feel the same way if LA was french or german or austrian or brittish? Maybe, maybe not. Would they feel the same way if he finished 2nd 7 times? Nobody really knows. But plenty of people bring their own personal bias in these judgments. I think I can safely say that my respect for Armstrong the athlete has nothing to do with his nationality. If my respect for a record 7-time winner of the most gruelling, most competitive endurance event on the planet can be interpreted as "ass-kissing" by original poster - well, I think it says more about the original poster's character than about my character or Lance's character.
I admire LA mostly for his work to promote cancer awareness, but it helps that he's a cyclist too. I've been following the TDF since the 1970s when my hero then was EM. LA didn't bring me to the TDF, so you know I'll be staying.
Chance3290 said:
Not trying to be smart, but only one race will be different now that LA has retired. The Belgians, for example, will still be out in force on the Mur de Huy next year and LA won't cross their minds for a second. But yes, the Tour de France will be haunted (and I mean that in a good way) by him until the next patron comes along.
rejobako said:
i'm sorry, i wasn't lance bashing. well, i wasn't trying to lance bash. sorry if it came across that way. posts highlighting his accomplishments don't bother me, but so often in this forum it seems if there is a percievable slight against lance people latch onto immediately and start attacking (kind of a strong word...) each other.
hmm. i'm not really sure where i'm going with this, but if you read the post right below your original post (crankster's, i think) you'll get a psychoanalytical breakdown of why people lance bash (did it really come across that way? even though i called him a great rider and didn't say one derogatory thing about him?) basically calling people that don't like lance snobby eiltitsts. that's the kind of thing i was posting about originally. i admit it was a bit abrasive, but i never "lance bashed". you reading this crankster?
Crankster said:
Load of dribble!
Just because cycling may not be a mainstream sport in the USA does not mean it is a niche sport dude, cycling is HUGE in Europe.
LA bashing IS about LA end of story, the man is an obnoxcious arogant
*****.....and MANY MANY people have spelt out why he is so hated but blind devotion such as yours seems to be just that...blind...you seem to skip read anything that is not praising your hero and write it off.
Fixey said:
Out of curiosity, are you european? A lot of Simpsons fans over in Europe?
I have plenty of respect for LA, and even though I suspect he may come off as arrogant, and perhaps he is in personal life, in his public statements he is nothing but humble, respectful of other riders, and of his teammates. If you are talking about arrogant riders look no further than statements from riders like Pantani, Simoni, McEwen, Gonzalez DeGaldeano, and others who are all talk but cannot back it up with their riding. How many time this season did we hear about Armstrong and Discovery being weak, and how many times did we hear it in previous years? At the same time Bruneel, Armstrong and Co were taking critisism quietly before blowing the critics away every July. Is arrogance is defined as finishing 4 minutes ahead of his closest competitor yet still acknowledging their effort, as Armstrong always does? I have never heard Armstrong saying that Ullrich is weak, or that Basso's team sucks, the way some other competitors would talk about Armstrong and his team.
Regardless, I will not be able to convince you as you are looking at everything through your own distorted prism.
Even if Armstrong won zero Tours, he would still have my outmost respect for the work he did for cancer patients. You may call him an arrogant *****, but he has changed the world in a way hundreds of other so-called "non-arrogant" cyclists wouldn't even dream of. His personal battles with this terrible desease and his triumph over it, plus his amazing Tour de France record is an inspiration to millions - cancer patients or not.
How about yourself, you think people will remember you the same way? Have you done anything that qualifies you have never met "obnoxcious arogant
*****" (sic).
You think they will remember Simoni or Heras or Beloki 10, 20 years from now? Somehow I doubt it.
while i am a big lance fan, i will be glad to see him go. there are so many other riders that deserve attention and aren't getting any because lance is so huge here in the US.
i really wish that oln had devoted as much time to getting interviews w/julich, leipheimer (sp?), landis, etc. as they did with lance. these guys are the present/future of american cycling. i want to know what they are thinking and going through.
and niche sport? yeah. i'd have to agree. while it's big in europe, that's def not the case in the rest of the world.
i really wish that oln had devoted as much time to getting interviews w/julich, leipheimer (sp?), landis, etc. as they did with lance. these guys are the present/future of american cycling. i want to know what they are thinking and going through.
and niche sport? yeah. i'd have to agree. while it's big in europe, that's def not the case in the rest of the world.
all right folks, get a grip. this is the "grand tours" forum so with all due respect to our euro friends and the Mur du Huy fans, this is and has been about the impact on the TdF. despite what many of you think (pro or con LA) the business side of the TdF will suffer due to the lack of the LA story. it's a business and the world media will not be out in force next year, the chances of OLN covering the tour this extensively next year are slim and those of us in the US who follow the sport will once again feel like 2nd class consumers while our euro friends go on their blissful way. it has always been about money and I can speak form first hand experience that some businesses in france will miss the american dollars.cheapie said:
How can one celebrate the retirement of one of the greatest athletes to ever compete in his/her discipline? I didn't celebrate the retirement of Pele, Jim Brown, Magic Johnson, Mark Spitz, Eddy Merckx, Edwin Moses, Walter Payton, Michael Jordan or Jack Nicklaus. Rather, I feel fortunate to have seen them do things in their sport that most people can only dream about. Thanks, Lance, for a helluva show.
Sorry but this is rubbish. What you're failing to realise is that most people don't have the time or the knowledge or can't be bothered to search a bit beyond "Lance's 7 wins". To see for themselves what is going on not just in the peloton but in professional sports in general. They believe what information they are fed because they are uneducated in terms of modern sports training/doping or simply because they want to believe it. The cancer survivor that came back from the dead and conquered the cycling Everest is too good a story not to be true... It gives people hope. Because most of us do want to believe in miracles...Crankster said:
Now, the "sad bastards" that refuse to be taken for a ride are called cynics, contrarians etc, simply because they took the time to ask some questions. Questions with no answers it seems. Go on, believe whatever you want to believe, I am not going to argue about it I don't care that much... In any case me and my fellow "contrarians" are in a win-win situation because when after 10-20 years the truth comes out either we will tell all of you "we told you so" or we will start believing in miracles...
Sorry, bit this is coming from someone who formed an opinion about French and other Europeans by serving beer to overseas students (if I'm not mistaken). Now, I have every respect in the world for publords but I don't think you are qualified to make such judgements. It's simplistic at the best of times... Again, I don't mean to be sarcastic but playing the anti-Americanism card is cheap and easy. You seem to jump to conclusions with not so much thought... Classic Armostrong fan...
Too many contradictions, too many half truths, too much arrogance and bullying.
Now, I don't want to go on about Lance here... After all, everyone are entitled to their opinion and I really don't want to be the good guy and try to pull someone's head from the sand. But it pisses me off to read posts like Crankster's that without second thought put labels on people just because they happen to disagreee with their dogma...
Just read the latest article by Lance's ''coach'', Chris Carmichael. This part suprised me alot;
http://www.tourdefrancenews.com/tourdefrance/experts/columns/0,5976,s1-12892-684,00.html?category_id=684
''I believe the continued presence of American riders at the top level of European professional cycling will have a large impact on the sport as a whole. American riders, historically, have been more open to advancements in technology and training methods. Lance's focus on year-round Tour de France training and nutrition, and his attention to detail regarding equipment, have spread to several other riders and teams in the peloton, but traditions run very deep. American riders and other progressive thinkers are a necessary component for continued innovation within the sport.''
Sorry but that is slap on european riders and teams. I'll agree that American teams/riders usually have more funding and are always very interested in the scientific aspect of the sport, Greg Lemond being an example, computers were the talk of the peloton at the time, Lemond seeked to perfect time trialing by way of very scientific approach which worked for him.
His article was good, but then he had to throw in ''american riders''. If it was just ''progressive thinkers are a necessary component for continued innovation within the sport'', I'd have no problem with it.
http://www.tourdefrancenews.com/tourdefrance/experts/columns/0,5976,s1-12892-684,00.html?category_id=684
''I believe the continued presence of American riders at the top level of European professional cycling will have a large impact on the sport as a whole. American riders, historically, have been more open to advancements in technology and training methods. Lance's focus on year-round Tour de France training and nutrition, and his attention to detail regarding equipment, have spread to several other riders and teams in the peloton, but traditions run very deep. American riders and other progressive thinkers are a necessary component for continued innovation within the sport.''
Sorry but that is slap on european riders and teams. I'll agree that American teams/riders usually have more funding and are always very interested in the scientific aspect of the sport, Greg Lemond being an example, computers were the talk of the peloton at the time, Lemond seeked to perfect time trialing by way of very scientific approach which worked for him.
His article was good, but then he had to throw in ''american riders''. If it was just ''progressive thinkers are a necessary component for continued innovation within the sport'', I'd have no problem with it.
Hey , you are mistaken about crankster here........ I am the one who you are referring to ........ And in that post I made the point you could not judge other cultures by the behavior of international students. I admit to be a anti-Hinault cycling fan though...... I believe watching the TDF of 1988 and being a Lemond fan would justify my basis for that.....DV1976 said:
The Lance story is a great story ..... I'm sure there is some spin put on it.... But history will prove that Lance will be remembered for his TDF domination. My proof is that history has shown Merckx was a great rider, but we know he was also a 3 *** convicted doper ..... But that is rarely remembered when Merckx's name appears. And look at the British love of Tom Simpson. He died on the mountain with vials on him....... But the British made him a legend.
It is true that the closer you get to the top of your game the more enemies you create..... In all aspects of life.
LA has put up with a lot of ****. And that is the opinon of Eddy Merckx. There has been criticism of him when it could be applied to many of the top riders....... And I am willing to bet if LA was European that most of the criticism would not be there.
And ..... If cycling does not have a nationalistic theme to it , why do we have National teams at the Worlds and not trade teams ????? Why is their nationality always printed next to their name on the roster list ??? Nationalism is part of cycling except for those few insightful fans who are above most people. Fans of the TDF should be glad that LA came along at the time he did. The reputation of the TDF was at an all-time low with the Festina affair. The sponsors who provide us with the TDF were wary of putting money behind the TDF. And yes, the sponsors of the TDF are as important as the riders. Everyone should be thankful that the story of Lance was larger then the story of the Festina boys...... The TDF would have continued but I bet the salaries of the riders would not be as high as they are.
you are right... Now I am curious to see how Crankster formed that opinion about French... On what basis...wolfix said:
You are right about it. However, I think that the riders you mentioned where well-liked at the time plus they raced in an era where doping was much more acceptable. Public opinion is split about Lance to start with and there seems to be an anti-doping hysteria nowadays that tears down reputations without too much thought. Don't forget also that none of these riders affected the public the way Lance did. He gave many people hope and masses hate nothing more than having their hope taken away... If ever is revealed that Lance was doping public opinion will go hard on him...
You always get the occasional idiot who will abuse someone because they don't like their country but I don't think that you can generalize from that. To start with Lance did his fair share to **** people off. He is not exactly the epitome of good manners something necessary for someone that is always in the spot light. You (and Crankster) also forget that Lance has a lot of fans in Europe and in countries that are predominantly anti-American. I admit that he is not that well-liked in France but this has more to do with the fact that there hasn't been a French winner for 20 years rather than the fact that French are anti-American. Had it been Ullrich winning 7 years in a row we would have Verdain (not sure about the spelling) all over again...
there is nothing in the above quote that I disagree with...
The history books I have read about that time period suggested that Merckx, Hinault and Fignon were not really liked by some riders or fans of nations other then theirs.... All were respected as riders though. I think the difference we have today is that with the internet and better communication we see into a athletes life far more then we did before. Every word and action is reported and sometimes twisted with modern communications. Plus, the riders today have more say and do not have to take the **** from owners/sponsors that the athletes in cycling used to have to take. Lance does speak his mind. Doping has always been an issue. And I believe Lance has been attacked more then his fair share. Nothing was ever said about Indurain & drugs during his domination of the sport.DV1976 said:
Lance is controversial. If Hinault was racing at this time he would be too. And I think the non-Parisians {French} thought Fignon was rather arrogant. Lance is typical of most athletes at the top in todays age, yesterday or in the past. But again, history has a way of being gentle on the winners, and harsh on the losers.....
But you are right about LA having fans on both sides of the Alantic. My international student friends seem to be fans of LA and Jan Ullrich.... And my cycling buddies who have more knowledge about the TDF then the average person in the states lean towards their particular rider more then being a fan of LA. I was hoping for a Ullrich win when LA started winning the TDF. Zabel is my favorite. I personally think that any rider who competes in the TDF /Pro Tour is a fantastic athlete as long as he plays with-in the rules. When I read posts from Americans that make asses of themselves making LA a saint I cringe.
LA has raised about $85 million for cancer research and for that reason he is respected. But I also know that if you or I would have had the same cancer as LA neither one of us would be here to either write this post nor read it. Because of LA's celebrity status he might have gotten the right people's attention. The world is not fair.
