Death in Greenwich Park



T

Tom Crispin

Guest
It has finally happened.

Those who have followed my posts over the years will have found me
frequently sounding off about the lack of cycle facilities in
Greenwich Park, and especially the dangerous 1.5m wide two way path
marked on the footway on a long straight hill, while motor traffic
free roads are closed to cyclists. In August last year I had a
meeting with the Park Manger about cycling in the park and mentioned
my concerns about the dangerous facility.

More recently I sent an email to CTC after they asked for examples of
dangerous cycle facilities and for information about anyone who had
been asked by police to use a facility they consider dangerous.

Last Tuesday at about 4.45pm a cyclist was killed by a driver on that
hill.

www.johnballcycling.org.uk/photos/avenue

The death occurred just out of view at the top left of this photo.

A cyclist was cycling up the hill on the road, presumably using the
road not the path because the path is treacherous for cyclists going
up due to fast moving cyclists going down. According to *rumour* a
driver going down the hill overtook another driver going down hitting
the cyclist head on and killing him.

James (mt99999) may know more about the death.

I will do all I can to assist the enquiry and inquest.
 
N

Nick

Guest
Tom Crispin wrote:
> It has finally happened.
>
> Those who have followed my posts over the years will have found me
> frequently sounding off about the lack of cycle facilities in
> Greenwich Park, and especially the dangerous 1.5m wide two way path
> marked on the footway on a long straight hill, while motor traffic
> free roads are closed to cyclists. In August last year I had a
> meeting with the Park Manger about cycling in the park and mentioned
> my concerns about the dangerous facility.
>
> More recently I sent an email to CTC after they asked for examples of
> dangerous cycle facilities and for information about anyone who had
> been asked by police to use a facility they consider dangerous.
>
> Last Tuesday at about 4.45pm a cyclist was killed by a driver on that
> hill.
>
> www.johnballcycling.org.uk/photos/avenue
>
> The death occurred just out of view at the top left of this photo.
>
> A cyclist was cycling up the hill on the road, presumably using the
> road not the path because the path is treacherous for cyclists going
> up due to fast moving cyclists going down. According to *rumour* a
> driver going down the hill overtook another driver going down hitting
> the cyclist head on and killing him.
>
> James (mt99999) may know more about the death.
>
> I will do all I can to assist the enquiry and inquest.


I'm not sure what the current arrangement but if it is the main road
down the hill, through the middle of the park that is closed to traffic
during the day that is also closed to cyclists, I can understand why.

It is very, very tempting to cycle down it at more than thirty (ie it is
> 30 with the brakes on) and the pedestrians and kids in the park think

it is closed and so are not looking out for silent high speed bikes.

Having said that I would have thought it would be relatively safe for a
cyclist going up the hill.

But then I nearly had a fight tonight with a driver tonight who thought
it was OK to wizz past me with inches to spare, apparently it was my
fault because I wasn't signalling (that would be signalling straight on,
on a straight road)

I would hope that they now close the road to both bikes and cars.
 
T

Tom Crispin

Guest
On Tue, 03 Jul 2007 23:58:39 +0100, Nick <[email protected]> wrote:

>Tom Crispin wrote:
>> It has finally happened.
>>
>> Those who have followed my posts over the years will have found me
>> frequently sounding off about the lack of cycle facilities in
>> Greenwich Park, and especially the dangerous 1.5m wide two way path
>> marked on the footway on a long straight hill, while motor traffic
>> free roads are closed to cyclists. In August last year I had a
>> meeting with the Park Manger about cycling in the park and mentioned
>> my concerns about the dangerous facility.
>>
>> More recently I sent an email to CTC after they asked for examples of
>> dangerous cycle facilities and for information about anyone who had
>> been asked by police to use a facility they consider dangerous.
>>
>> Last Tuesday at about 4.45pm a cyclist was killed by a driver on that
>> hill.
>>
>> www.johnballcycling.org.uk/photos/avenue
>>
>> The death occurred just out of view at the top left of this photo.
>>
>> A cyclist was cycling up the hill on the road, presumably using the
>> road not the path because the path is treacherous for cyclists going
>> up due to fast moving cyclists going down. According to *rumour* a
>> driver going down the hill overtook another driver going down hitting
>> the cyclist head on and killing him.
>>
>> James (mt99999) may know more about the death.
>>
>> I will do all I can to assist the enquiry and inquest.

>
>I'm not sure what the current arrangement but if it is the main road
>down the hill, through the middle of the park that is closed to traffic
>during the day that is also closed to cyclists, I can understand why.


The road is closed to motor traffic 10am - 4pm. It is closed to all
traffic when the park is closed, generally dusk - dawn.

>It is very, very tempting to cycle down it at more than thirty (ie it is
> > 30 with the brakes on) and the pedestrians and kids in the park think

>it is closed and so are not looking out for silent high speed bikes.


I agree. In my younger days I reached 40 - until one time when I
nearly hit a child who ran across the road. I avoided him by
crashing.

>Having said that I would have thought it would be relatively safe for a
>cyclist going up the hill.


It should be perfectly safe. The only thing I have noticed is that
slow moving cyclists going up a hill have a tendancy to swerve in
unexpected ways.

>But then I nearly had a fight tonight with a driver tonight who thought
>it was OK to wizz past me with inches to spare, apparently it was my
>fault because I wasn't signalling (that would be signalling straight on,
>on a straight road)
>
>I would hope that they now close the road to both bikes and cars.


Closing it to cars is a good idea. Closing it to cyclists is not a
good idea, though some sort of method of keeping cyclists to a
reasonable speed would help.
 
J

John Hearns

Guest
Tom Crispin wrote:
> It has finally happened.


> More recently I sent an email to CTC after they asked for examples of
> dangerous cycle facilities and for information about anyone who had
> been asked by police to use a facility they consider dangerous.


> Last Tuesday at about 4.45pm a cyclist was killed by a driver on that
> hill.
>

Greenwich Cyclists will be discussing the accident and its
implications at their meeting on Wednesday July 4, starting 7.30.p.m in
The Armada Centre, Creek Road , SE8. All welcome to attend.


Greenwich Cyclists are the local LCC Borough Group.
 
T

Tom Crispin

Guest
On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 07:06:25 +0100, John Hearns <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Tom Crispin wrote:
>> It has finally happened.

>
>> More recently I sent an email to CTC after they asked for examples of
>> dangerous cycle facilities and for information about anyone who had
>> been asked by police to use a facility they consider dangerous.

>
>> Last Tuesday at about 4.45pm a cyclist was killed by a driver on that
>> hill.
>>

> Greenwich Cyclists will be discussing the accident and its
>implications at their meeting on Wednesday July 4, starting 7.30.p.m in
>The Armada Centre, Creek Road , SE8. All welcome to attend.
>
>
>Greenwich Cyclists are the local LCC Borough Group.


I will see you there.

I hope there will also be time to discuss the ride to the TdF
prologue.
 
J

John Hearns

Guest
John Hearns wrote:
>
> Greenwich Cyclists will be discussing the accident and its implications
> at their meeting on Wednesday July 4, starting 7.30.p.m in The Armada
> Centre, Creek Road , SE8. All welcome to attend.



Just to make this a bit clearer, there has been a lot of discussion
about this tragic incident.
If you are local (or not) you are very welcome to attend the meeting.
 
P

Paul Boyd

Guest
Nick said the following on 03/07/2007 23:58:

> But then I nearly had a fight tonight with a driver tonight who thought
> it was OK to wizz past me with inches to spare, apparently it was my
> fault because I wasn't signalling (that would be signalling straight on,
> on a straight road)


I've had that, and I was in a position to ask the driver what signal he
would expect me to give to indicate that I had no intention of turning
off the road I was cycling on. Apparently the signal is the middle
finger pointing upwards :)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
 
N

Nick

Guest
John Hearns wrote:
> Tom Crispin wrote:
>> It has finally happened.

>
>> More recently I sent an email to CTC after they asked for examples of
>> dangerous cycle facilities and for information about anyone who had
>> been asked by police to use a facility they consider dangerous.

>
>> Last Tuesday at about 4.45pm a cyclist was killed by a driver on that
>> hill.
>>

> Greenwich Cyclists will be discussing the accident and its implications
> at their meeting on Wednesday July 4, starting 7.30.p.m in The Armada
> Centre, Creek Road , SE8. All welcome to attend.
>


Damn, I rode right past about half an hour ago I would have popped in if
I had known.
 
T

Tom Crispin

Guest
On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 19:54:58 +0100, Nick <[email protected]> wrote:

>John Hearns wrote:
>> Tom Crispin wrote:
>>> It has finally happened.

>>
>>> More recently I sent an email to CTC after they asked for examples of
>>> dangerous cycle facilities and for information about anyone who had
>>> been asked by police to use a facility they consider dangerous.

>>
>>> Last Tuesday at about 4.45pm a cyclist was killed by a driver on that
>>> hill.
>>>

>> Greenwich Cyclists will be discussing the accident and its implications
>> at their meeting on Wednesday July 4, starting 7.30.p.m in The Armada
>> Centre, Creek Road , SE8. All welcome to attend.
>>

>
>Damn, I rode right past about half an hour ago I would have popped in if
>I had known.


It was a very informative meeting.

The fatality in the park was caused by a driver overtaking a slower
moving motor vehicle and hitting the cyclist head on, while the
cyclist was moving slowly up the hill.
 
S

spindrift

Guest
On 4 Jul, 21:34, Tom Crispin <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 19:54:58 +0100, Nick <[email protected]> wrote:
> >John Hearns wrote:
> >> Tom Crispin wrote:
> >>> It has finally happened.

>
> >>> More recently I sent an email to CTC after they asked for examples of
> >>> dangerous cycle facilities and for information about anyone who had
> >>> been asked by police to use a facility they consider dangerous.

>
> >>> Last Tuesday at about 4.45pm a cyclist was killed by a driver on that
> >>> hill.

>
> >> Greenwich Cyclists will be discussing the accident and its implications
> >> at their meeting on Wednesday July 4, starting 7.30.p.m in The Armada
> >> Centre, Creek Road , SE8. All welcome to attend.

>
> >Damn, I rode right past about half an hour ago I would have popped in if
> >I had known.

>
> It was a very informative meeting.
>
> The fatality in the park was caused by a driver overtaking a slower
> moving motor vehicle and hitting the cyclist head on, while the
> cyclist was moving slowly up the hill.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Pippa, the dead man's daughter, posted on Cycling Plus:


http://www.cyclingplus.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=134382


This is disgusting, when drivers can't be trusted not to drive at
lethal speeds IN PARKS, WTF is going on?
 
On Jul 3, 10:49 pm, Tom Crispin
<[email protected]> wrote:
> It has finally happened.

<snip>
>
> James (mt99999) may know more about the death.
>


'fraid I don't have any extra insight. I passed by that evening (it is
on my commute). The C+ thread that Spindrift refences in this thread
seems to have as much information in it as I am aware of (including
some speculation).

Personally I hope that they close the road from the roundabout to the
bottom of the hill to motor traffic at all times. An extra cycle lane
on the other pavement (which others have called for as a fallback)
would be a retrograde step IMO.

Ny thoughts are with the deceased's family and friends
james
 
E

Earl Purple

Guest
On 3 Jul, 23:58, Nick <[email protected]> wrote:
> Tom Crispin wrote:
> > It has finally happened.

>
> > Those who have followed my posts over the years will have found me
> > frequently sounding off about the lack of cycle facilities in
> > Greenwich Park, and especially the dangerous 1.5m wide two way path
> > marked on the footway on a long straight hill, while motor traffic
> > free roads are closed to cyclists. In August last year I had a
> > meeting with the Park Manger about cycling in the park and mentioned
> > my concerns about the dangerous facility.

>
> > More recently I sent an email to CTC after they asked for examples of
> > dangerous cycle facilities and for information about anyone who had
> > been asked by police to use a facility they consider dangerous.

>
> > Last Tuesday at about 4.45pm a cyclist was killed by a driver on that
> > hill.

>
> >www.johnballcycling.org.uk/photos/avenue

>
> > The death occurred just out of view at the top left of this photo.

>
> > A cyclist was cycling up the hill on the road, presumably using the
> > road not the path because the path is treacherous for cyclists going
> > up due to fast moving cyclists going down. According to *rumour* a
> > driver going down the hill overtook another driver going down hitting
> > the cyclist head on and killing him.

>
> > James (mt99999) may know more about the death.

>
> > I will do all I can to assist the enquiry and inquest.

>
> I'm not sure what the current arrangement but if it is the main road
> down the hill, through the middle of the park that is closed to traffic
> during the day that is also closed to cyclists, I can understand why.
>
> It is very, very tempting to cycle down it at more than thirty (ie it is
> > 30 with the brakes on) and the pedestrians and kids in the park think

> it is closed and so are not looking out for silent high speed bikes.
>
> Having said that I would have thought it would be relatively safe for a
> cyclist going up the hill.
>
> But then I nearly had a fight tonight with a driver tonight who thought
> it was OK to wizz past me with inches to spare, apparently it was my
> fault because I wasn't signalling (that would be signalling straight on,
> on a straight road)
>
> I would hope that they now close the road to both bikes and cars.-


I don't know the park but I do cycle through Finsbury Park where
sections of the main road are closed for motor-vehicles, in fact there
is no through access for motor-vehicles at all, and they can enter
only to park (which is not free). There is also a hill but it is
possibly not as steep as that through Greenwich Park, and I have not
had problems with children crossing your path. The only tricky section
is coming off the road towards the gate at Seven Sisters Road (near
Finsbury Park station) and obviously any cyclist will slow down but
pedestrians just don't look around and you need to sound the bell a
few times to get noticed (and sometimes even shout).
 
N

Nick

Guest
Earl Purple wrote:

>>
>> I would hope that they now close the road to both bikes and cars.-

>
> I don't know the park but I do cycle through Finsbury Park where
> sections of the main road are closed for motor-vehicles, in fact there
> is no through access for motor-vehicles at all, and they can enter
> only to park (which is not free). There is also a hill but it is
> possibly not as steep as that through Greenwich Park, and I have not
> had problems with children crossing your path. The only tricky section
> is coming off the road towards the gate at Seven Sisters Road (near
> Finsbury Park station) and obviously any cyclist will slow down but
> pedestrians just don't look around and you need to sound the bell a
> few times to get noticed (and sometimes even shout).
>


I'm actually one of the few people in this group in favour of bikes
being able to use paths pretty much anywhere as long as they travel at
sensible speeds and give priority to pedestrians.

It is this particular road I object to because it is so steep and fast
in the middle of a park.
 

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