Decending confidence

[Pablo Juan]

What are the opinions out there regarding building more decending confidence?

I am a relatively new roadie and can't seem to shake the images in my mind of crashing out that try to surface whilst downhilling at 60 +/-. I'm still on the supplied tyres that came with my bike - Specialized slicks. Do most riders train on 'slicks' or a tyre with some sort of tread, and how does tyre type/profile and road conditions affect the anxiety levels of you roadies out there? - I'm talking training rides here - not all-out-risk taking that might be understandable in race situations.

 

[Duracellis]

What are the opinions out there regarding building more decending confidence?

I am a relatively new roadie and can't seem to shake the images in my mind of crashing out that try to surface whilst downhilling at 60 +/-. I'm still on the supplied tyres that came with my bike - Specialized slicks. Do most riders train on 'slicks' or a tyre with some sort of tread, and how does tyre type/profile and road conditions affect the anxiety levels of you roadies out there? - I'm talking training rides here - not all-out-risk taking that might be understandable in race situations.

Heh. All I can say is keep on descending and it will eventually go away. The more you ride the more confident you become. It's the same with cornering and riding in a pack; it just takes time.

And when riding down hill in the rain, keep in mind that you will have less traction so don’t break or turn as hard or fast as you could in normal conditions.

 

[Eastway82]

What are the opinions out there regarding building more decending confidence?

I am a relatively new roadie and can't seem to shake the images in my mind of crashing out that try to surface whilst downhilling at 60 +/-. I'm still on the supplied tyres that came with my bike - Specialized slicks. Do most riders train on 'slicks' or a tyre with some sort of tread, and how does tyre type/profile and road conditions affect the anxiety levels of you roadies out there? - I'm talking training rides here - not all-out-risk taking that might be understandable in race situations.

Tyre tread has no relevance to grip in dry conditions. All the tread's there for is to move water out of the way so the rubber can get at the road. All things being equal, slicks are more grippy in the dry than treaded tyres.
In dry conditions, smooth tarmac is more grippy than 'top dressed' tarmac. In the wet it's the other way round.
The biggest thing is to stay relaxed, and the biggest factor is staying relaxed is forward planning and reading the road. Then work on taking the best lines so you use as much of the road as is available to you (this will vary according to traffic, visibility, road surface etc): ie, for a left hander, start from as far over to the right as it's safe to be, then sweep across to make an apex as far over to the left as possible in the middle of the corner, then drift out to the right again on the exit. If you watch good descenders they're smooth, never ragged, because they're always looking as far ahead as they can see, which means you get more warning of what's coming up, which in turn means you can plan better, so you're less likely to get surprised, so you're more relaxed, so you're more in control - it's a spiral of confidence. The flipside of that is when you're going too fast for your forward vision/ability to stop, or you haven't read the road properly, so you get tense, and you get obsessed with the tarmac a few feet in front of you rather than a few hundred feet ahead. This makes you even more likely to get surprised and make mistakes, and you're more tense so your bike control's worse - that's a spiral too, but in the wrong direction!
You'll also probably find it better to take your weight slightly off the saddle and keep a loose grip on the bars - letting the bike move under you, especially on bumpy surfaces.
OK, here's possibly the best bit of advice you'll ever get for fast downhill cornering on unfamiliar roads. It comes from 25 years on bikes and 20 years racing and road testing and writing about motorcycles (which is my job):
It's called the vanishing point. As you approach a corner, look at the point where the two kerbs appear to meet. If that point appears to be getting closer to you, the corner is tightening up and you may need to slow to get round it. If that point appears to be getting further away, the corner is opening up and you can 'chase' the point as hard as you like.
Try it!

 

[capwater]

Just gotta ride more and get used to it. No magic bullet here, mate.

 

[Albert 50]

Tyre tread has no relevance to grip in dry conditions. All the tread's there for is to move water out of the way so the rubber can get at the road. All things being equal, slicks are more grippy in the dry than treaded tyres.
........... It comes from 25 years on bikes and 20 years racing and road testing and writing about motorcycles (which is my job)

I saw an article from Sheldon Brown re the fact that bicycle tyres, unlike motorcycles & car tyres that NO tread is neccessary. His explanation goes something like this:-This is mainly due to the narrow width & speed of a bicycle tyre. Also there are enough minor undulations even on smooth hotmix type road surfaces [get on your knees & have a look] to disperse water between tyre & road.

 

[badkarma]

Heh. All I can say is keep on descending and it will eventually go away. The more you ride the more confident you become. It's the same with cornering and riding in a pack; it just takes time.

And when riding down hill in the rain, keep in mind that you will have less traction so don’t break or turn as hard or fast as you could in normal conditions.

+1 Well stated.

 

[Eastway82]

Just gotta ride more and get used to it. No magic bullet here, mate.

Nope, no magic bullets, but if all you do is ride, you'll only learn so much, and you'll learn a lot of it the hard way - via a load of gravel rash. If you ride and think at the same time, you'll learn a lot faster...

 

[artmichalek]

I saw an article from Sheldon Brown re the fact that bicycle tyres, unlike motorcycles & car tyres that NO tread is neccessary. His explanation goes something like this:-This is mainly due to the narrow width & speed of a bicycle tyre. Also there are enough minor undulations even on smooth hotmix type road surfaces [get on your knees & have a look] to disperse water between tyre & road.

It's an article worth reading:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html

 

[Deanster04]

What are the opinions out there regarding building more decending confidence?

I am a relatively new roadie and can't seem to shake the images in my mind of crashing out that try to surface whilst downhilling at 60 +/-. I'm still on the supplied tyres that came with my bike - Specialized slicks. Do most riders train on 'slicks' or a tyre with some sort of tread, and how does tyre type/profile and road conditions affect the anxiety levels of you roadies out there? - I'm talking training rides here - not all-out-risk taking that might be understandable in race situations.

I live in the Rockies in Colorado and have lots of very steep descents. Often hit 60+ and am quite relaxed. The one thing is that I use conventional 3X spoke wheels (if I break a spoke the bike won't try and pull a "Bodacious" on me) and i ride tyres with high TPI and low flatting (Conti GP 3000). I wouldn't make high speed descents on radial spoked wheels or cheap tyres with out needing mind altering drugs. Yes, Yes, I know that Botique wheels are "Safe" but not for my minds eye (225 lbs). I have been riding for years and am pretty confident of my skills so it now comes natural. The best thing I can suggest is get the good equipment and don't over reach meaning just extend your capability in small bits or you will find your self freaking in a fast corner, tensing up (worst reaction), and on your ass giving the macadam a skin graft.
Oh, yeah Bodacious was the meanest bull of all time on the circuit.

 

[Pablo Juan]

Thanks for the detailed reply!! Good to hear that my question was not laughed off the forum.
Cheers

Tyre tread has no relevance to grip in dry conditions. All the tread's there for is to move water out of the way so the rubber can get at the road. All things being equal, slicks are more grippy in the dry than treaded tyres.
In dry conditions, smooth tarmac is more grippy than 'top dressed' tarmac. In the wet it's the other way round.
The biggest thing is to stay relaxed, and the biggest factor is staying relaxed is forward planning and reading the road. Then work on taking the best lines so you use as much of the road as is available to you (this will vary according to traffic, visibility, road surface etc): ie, for a left hander, start from as far over to the right as it's safe to be, then sweep across to make an apex as far over to the left as possible in the middle of the corner, then drift out to the right again on the exit. If you watch good descenders they're smooth, never ragged, because they're always looking as far ahead as they can see, which means you get more warning of what's coming up, which in turn means you can plan better, so you're less likely to get surprised, so you're more relaxed, so you're more in control - it's a spiral of confidence. The flipside of that is when you're going too fast for your forward vision/ability to stop, or you haven't read the road properly, so you get tense, and you get obsessed with the tarmac a few feet in front of you rather than a few hundred feet ahead. This makes you even more likely to get surprised and make mistakes, and you're more tense so your bike control's worse - that's a spiral too, but in the wrong direction!
You'll also probably find it better to take your weight slightly off the saddle and keep a loose grip on the bars - letting the bike move under you, especially on bumpy surfaces.
OK, here's possibly the best bit of advice you'll ever get for fast downhill cornering on unfamiliar roads. It comes from 25 years on bikes and 20 years racing and road testing and writing about motorcycles (which is my job):
It's called the vanishing point. As you approach a corner, look at the point where the two kerbs appear to meet. If that point appears to be getting closer to you, the corner is tightening up and you may need to slow to get round it. If that point appears to be getting further away, the corner is opening up and you can 'chase' the point as hard as you like.
Try it!

 

[Pablo Juan]

Thanks for the detailed reply!! Good to hear that my question was not laughed off the forum.
Cheers

Tyre tread has no relevance to grip in dry conditions. All the tread's there for is to move water out of the way so the rubber can get at the road. All things being equal, slicks are more grippy in the dry than treaded tyres.
In dry conditions, smooth tarmac is more grippy than 'top dressed' tarmac. In the wet it's the other way round.
The biggest thing is to stay relaxed, and the biggest factor is staying relaxed is forward planning and reading the road. Then work on taking the best lines so you use as much of the road as is available to you (this will vary according to traffic, visibility, road surface etc): ie, for a left hander, start from as far over to the right as it's safe to be, then sweep across to make an apex as far over to the left as possible in the middle of the corner, then drift out to the right again on the exit. If you watch good descenders they're smooth, never ragged, because they're always looking as far ahead as they can see, which means you get more warning of what's coming up, which in turn means you can plan better, so you're less likely to get surprised, so you're more relaxed, so you're more in control - it's a spiral of confidence. The flipside of that is when you're going too fast for your forward vision/ability to stop, or you haven't read the road properly, so you get tense, and you get obsessed with the tarmac a few feet in front of you rather than a few hundred feet ahead. This makes you even more likely to get surprised and make mistakes, and you're more tense so your bike control's worse - that's a spiral too, but in the wrong direction!
You'll also probably find it better to take your weight slightly off the saddle and keep a loose grip on the bars - letting the bike move under you, especially on bumpy surfaces.
OK, here's possibly the best bit of advice you'll ever get for fast downhill cornering on unfamiliar roads. It comes from 25 years on bikes and 20 years racing and road testing and writing about motorcycles (which is my job):
It's called the vanishing point. As you approach a corner, look at the point where the two kerbs appear to meet. If that point appears to be getting closer to you, the corner is tightening up and you may need to slow to get round it. If that point appears to be getting further away, the corner is opening up and you can 'chase' the point as hard as you like.
Try it!

 

[Pablo Juan]

Thanks. The Rockies - must be very special on a Sunday morning in rhythm.

I live in the Rockies in Colorado and have lots of very steep descents. Often hit 60+ and am quite relaxed. The one thing is that I use conventional 3X spoke wheels (if I break a spoke the bike won't try and pull a "Bodacious" on me) and i ride tyres with high TPI and low flatting (Conti GP 3000). I wouldn't make high speed descents on radial spoked wheels or cheap tyres with out needing mind altering drugs. Yes, Yes, I know that Botique wheels are "Safe" but not for my minds eye (225 lbs). I have been riding for years and am pretty confident of my skills so it now comes natural. The best thing I can suggest is get the good equipment and don't over reach meaning just extend your capability in small bits or you will find your self freaking in a fast corner, tensing up (worst reaction), and on your ass giving the macadam a skin graft.
Oh, yeah Bodacious was the meanest bull of all time on the circuit.

 

[Pablo Juan]

Thanks. The Rockies - must be very special on a Sunday morning in rhythm.

I live in the Rockies in Colorado and have lots of very steep descents. Often hit 60+ and am quite relaxed. The one thing is that I use conventional 3X spoke wheels (if I break a spoke the bike won't try and pull a "Bodacious" on me) and i ride tyres with high TPI and low flatting (Conti GP 3000). I wouldn't make high speed descents on radial spoked wheels or cheap tyres with out needing mind altering drugs. Yes, Yes, I know that Botique wheels are "Safe" but not for my minds eye (225 lbs). I have been riding for years and am pretty confident of my skills so it now comes natural. The best thing I can suggest is get the good equipment and don't over reach meaning just extend your capability in small bits or you will find your self freaking in a fast corner, tensing up (worst reaction), and on your ass giving the macadam a skin graft.
Oh, yeah Bodacious was the meanest bull of all time on the circuit.

 

[lyotard]

tire tread on the 700x23 or thereabouts commonly equipped for road bikes is really of value for style than effect. in the rain, tread is still not effective, as these are too narrow to hydroplane.

i ride at 50 almost everyday, and have descended with some truly fast riders at times. i have picked some things up, at times from watching these guys from behind.

some commonalties of the fast descender, that can be counted on at speed:
-know the road and practice, know how to pick a line apropos for the radius and speed. an mtb background is an advantage here.

-brake before the turn, do not overcook it.

-if you be so bold as to pass a truly fast descender, know you are probably in over your head, and may do well to relinquish your lead...

-your body position affects your speed, tuck down a bit, off you go.
sit up, you get wind drag that decreases speed. slightly spreading you knees and elbows increases this effect.

-use proportionately less rear brakes to avoid skidding, the front brake can be used heavily on the straights, modulate the brakes to this end.

-when it is super steep (15% + or so) get off the saddle and position your hips back so as to keep weight on the rear wheel, this provides more stopping capability.

-have your bike setup with a position that is practical for good bike handling, a stem that is too high will tend to result in a shaky characteristic.

-keep weght on your feet, this keeps your center of gravity low. sometimes, when nervous, you may tense up the hamstrings and forget to push down on your pedals. avoid this.

-pinch the top tube between your knees, this can be psychologicaly calming, and perhaps add some stability.

-look ahead, far ahead, scan constantly, without quick darting glances, but with deliberate calm. this will give time to make decisions and reactions re braking and cornering.

-your bike must be adjusted perfectly, no shoddy headset or untrue wheels.

-hold the drops, lower your head, and roll your eyes up to postion you head without neck fatigue.

-watch out for tapping a pedal during cranking and cornering, know how much lean angle this takes.

-use damn good sunglasses, preferably without lenses that are too dark, as this will cause eye strain. racing red, vermillion, or persimmon are good lens colors.

-do not use a death grip, keep the grip and elbows somewhat loose, this will result in finer control.

-do not unnecessarily ride the brakes, esp. on the straights, as this will just cause fatigue.

-confidence and skill take years to perfect, one thing i have found is it is much safer to err just on the side of caution than to go all out...while being very near as fast.

-learn your style, bike handling is a fluid dance, and there are subtle variation among riders and their bike handling expressions.

-stay mostly neutral with regard to body postion, jutting the knees, shoulders or elbows out in exagerated body english fashion does not increase speed or handling finesse.

-constanly scan all the above until intuitive. good lick, but if you let it all hang out and biff, do not blame me, even though i believe a crash or two can raise the skill level, as it is the surest way to know the applied physics of exceeding the limits.

What are the opinions out there regarding building more decending confidence?

I am a relatively new roadie and can't seem to shake the images in my mind of crashing out that try to surface whilst downhilling at 60 +/-. I'm still on the supplied tyres that came with my bike - Specialized slicks. Do most riders train on 'slicks' or a tyre with some sort of tread, and how does tyre type/profile and road conditions affect the anxiety levels of you roadies out there? - I'm talking training rides here - not all-out-risk taking that might be understandable in race situations.

 

[lyotard]

tire tread on the 700x23 or thereabouts commonly equipped for road bikes is really of value for style than effect. in the rain, tread is still not effective, as these are too narrow to hydroplane.

i ride at 50 almost everyday, and have descended with some truly fast riders at times. i have picked some things up, at times from watching these guys from behind.

some commonalties of the fast descender, that can be counted on at speed:
-know the road and practice, know how to pick a line apropos for the radius and speed. an mtb background is an advantage here.

-brake before the turn, do not overcook it.

-if you be so bold as to pass a truly fast descender, know you are probably in over your head, and may do well to relinquish your lead...

-your body position affects your speed, tuck down a bit, off you go.
sit up, you get wind drag that decreases speed. slightly spreading you knees and elbows increases this effect.

-use proportionately less rear brakes to avoid skidding, the front brake can be used heavily on the straights, modulate the brakes to this end.

-when it is super steep (15% + or so) get off the saddle and position your hips back so as to keep weight on the rear wheel, this provides more stopping capability.

-have your bike setup with a position that is practical for good bike handling, a stem that is too high will tend to result in a shaky characteristic.

-keep weght on your feet, this keeps your center of gravity low. sometimes, when nervous, you may tense up the hamstrings and forget to push down on your pedals. avoid this.

-pinch the top tube between your knees, this can be psychologicaly calming, and perhaps add some stability.

-look ahead, far ahead, scan constantly, without quick darting glances, but with deliberate calm. this will give time to make decisions and reactions re braking and cornering.

-your bike must be adjusted perfectly, no shoddy headset or untrue wheels.

-hold the drops, lower your head, and roll your eyes up to postion you head without neck fatigue.

-watch out for tapping a pedal during cranking and cornering, know how much lean angle this takes.

-use damn good sunglasses, preferably without lenses that are too dark, as this will cause eye strain. racing red, vermillion, or persimmon are good lens colors.

-do not use a death grip, keep the grip and elbows somewhat loose, this will result in finer control.

-do not unnecessarily ride the brakes, esp. on the straights, as this will just cause fatigue.

-confidence and skill take years to perfect, one thing i have found is it is much safer to err just on the side of caution than to go all out...while being very near as fast.

-learn your style, bike handling is a fluid dance, and there are subtle variation among riders and their bike handling expressions.

-stay mostly neutral with regard to body postion, jutting the knees, shoulders or elbows out in exagerated body english fashion does not increase speed or handling finesse.

-constanly scan all the above until intuitive. good lick, but if you let it all hang out and biff, do not blame me, even though i believe a crash or two can raise the skill level, as it is the surest way to know the applied physics of exceeding the limits.

What are the opinions out there regarding building more decending confidence?

I am a relatively new roadie and can't seem to shake the images in my mind of crashing out that try to surface whilst downhilling at 60 +/-. I'm still on the supplied tyres that came with my bike - Specialized slicks. Do most riders train on 'slicks' or a tyre with some sort of tread, and how does tyre type/profile and road conditions affect the anxiety levels of you roadies out there? - I'm talking training rides here - not all-out-risk taking that might be understandable in race situations.

 

[tyler1212]

I just close my eyes, especially if I'm going above 70 km/hr. I makes it seem less dangerous.

 

[JohnO]

Couple of things that have helped me descend without cracking up...

Focus, focus, focus. I alternate focus from far ahead to about 20 - 30 feet in front looking for road debris. A blown tire at high speed will make things dicey, so be on the lookout for road debris. Also look for cars on side roads. You aren't very visible on a bicycle, and most drivers don't expect a bike to be moving that fast, so assume they can't see you. Better to ruin a downhill run by getting on the brakes than ruining your whole day.

Maintain, maintain, maintain. I'm a bit of a bike maintenance freak, just love working on it. Give the tires a once over before you ride - you may find a cut that's a flat waiting to happen, or even a small nail stuck in the tire that isn't causing a leak - yet. Check the wheels for any new wobbles - could be a sign that a spoke is coming loose. Check spoke tension, are any looser than the rest? Hold the wheel by the axle and give it a spin - any new roughness? Are your skewers cranked on firmly? Hold the front brake and rock the bike back and forth - any free play in the headset? If I'm going to be hitting 50-60mph on a downhill, I darn well make sure the bike is ready. The penalty for error is quite severe.

 

[limerickman]

tire tread on the 700x23 or thereabouts commonly equipped for road bikes is really of value for style than effect. in the rain, tread is still not effective, as these are too narrow to hydroplane.

i ride at 50 almost everyday, and have descended with some truly fast riders at times. i have picked some things up, at times from watching these guys from behind.

some commonalties of the fast descender, that can be counted on at speed:
-know the road and practice, know how to pick a line apropos for the radius and speed. an mtb background is an advantage here.

-brake before the turn, do not overcook it.

-if you be so bold as to pass a truly fast descender, know you are probably in over your head, and may do well to relinquish your lead...

-your body position affects your speed, tuck down a bit, off you go.
sit up, you get wind drag that decreases speed. slightly spreading you knees and elbows increases this effect.

-use proportionately less rear brakes to avoid skidding, the front brake can be used heavily on the straights, modulate the brakes to this end.

-when it is super steep (15% + or so) get off the saddle and position your hips back so as to keep weight on the rear wheel, this provides more stopping capability.

-have your bike setup with a position that is practical for good bike handling, a stem that is too high will tend to result in a shaky characteristic.

-keep weght on your feet, this keeps your center of gravity low. sometimes, when nervous, you may tense up the hamstrings and forget to push down on your pedals. avoid this.

-pinch the top tube between your knees, this can be psychologicaly calming, and perhaps add some stability.

-look ahead, far ahead, scan constantly, without quick darting glances, but with deliberate calm. this will give time to make decisions and reactions re braking and cornering.

-your bike must be adjusted perfectly, no shoddy headset or untrue wheels.

-hold the drops, lower your head, and roll your eyes up to postion you head without neck fatigue.

-watch out for tapping a pedal during cranking and cornering, know how much lean angle this takes.

-use damn good sunglasses, preferably without lenses that are too dark, as this will cause eye strain. racing red, vermillion, or persimmon are good lens colors.

-do not use a death grip, keep the grip and elbows somewhat loose, this will result in finer control.

-do not unnecessarily ride the brakes, esp. on the straights, as this will just cause fatigue.

-confidence and skill take years to perfect, one thing i have found is it is much safer to err just on the side of caution than to go all out...while being very near as fast.

-learn your style, bike handling is a fluid dance, and there are subtle variation among riders and their bike handling expressions.

-stay mostly neutral with regard to body postion, jutting the knees, shoulders or elbows out in exagerated body english fashion does not increase speed or handling finesse.

-constanly scan all the above until intuitive. good lick, but if you let it all hang out and biff, do not blame me, even though i believe a crash or two can raise the skill level, as it is the surest way to know the applied physics of exceeding the limits.

All good advise.

Can I add when descending - keep your eyes directed on what is ahead of you.
Do not look behind you unless you're planning to over take something that is ahead of you.

The other piece of advise is to try to locate hill which have "benign" descents and practice descending them until such time as you gain confidence and feel that you can descending more "aggressive" descents.

Descending at speed is difficult, you do need to be attentive at all times
but the advise given here by everyone is correct and I suggest that you try to follow it.

 

[Pablo Juan]

Thanks All!

All good advise.

Can I add when descending - keep your eyes directed on what is ahead of you.
Do not look behind you unless you're planning to over take something that is ahead of you.

The other piece of advise is to try to locate hill which have "benign" descents and practice descending them until such time as you gain confidence and feel that you can descending more "aggressive" descents.

Descending at speed is difficult, you do need to be attentive at all times
but the advise given here by everyone is correct and I suggest that you try to follow it.

 

[EoinC]

When descending, clipped-in on a no-brake fixed-wheel, know your limits. Of course the only way to really know your limits is to go past them. Bounce-bounce,whakka-whakka, thump-thump, ow! Ask me how I know....