Definitive proof ;-)



Quoting Ziggy <[email protected]>:
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>Well, yes, I can. I _am_ claiming that that makes it additionally obvious
>>that jtaylor was talking about the overall net effect, and it does.

>You seem incapable of reading what people wrote


I read "the largest and best studies". I can easily see that must mean the
writer is not talking about individual types of impact. Simple, really.

>>There certainly is, because of course when Tony wrote what he did he was
>>denying what he thought you meant, not having realised you'd constructed
>>this fantasy scenario.

>This time you are imputing to a third party this habit of not reading and
>answering what people wrote but you thought they might have meant by what they
>wrote.


It's not a habit; Tony made an understandable mistake once because he
didn't expect your fantasy scenario. That's quite reasonable. I didn't
realise, at first, that you were so vigorously arguing with a position
no-one holds.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!
Today is Second Leicesterday, March.
 
On 22 Mar, 17:18, [email protected] (Ziggy) wrote:
> On 22 Mar 2007 10:13:09 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On 22 Mar, 17:10, [email protected] (Ziggy) wrote:
> >> On 22 Mar 2007 10:06:17 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:

>
> >> >Trust me I am very good at killing people I want to. I may be out of
> >> >practice but I am sure I could still hit an 8" circle ar 1600m.

>
> >> Given the current police record I wouldn't trust you to hit a 1600m circle at
> >> 8".

>
> >> In fact I'd be quite surprised if you managed to avoid shooting yourself moe
> >> than once in a blue moon.

>
> >> Best stick to doughnuts and fiddling the old overtime, eh?

>
> >The small end with the hole points away from the user.

>
> Wow, I'm impressed!
>
> I expect you count as an advanced expert knowing such a wealth of technical
> detail.
>
> (I'm assuming that you do realise that you are the user. It would be sad if
> there were any little misunderstandings when you seem to be doing *so* well.)



....if I told you I would have to kill you.

Sniper8052
 
[email protected] wrote:
> On 22 Mar, 17:18, [email protected] (Ziggy) wrote:
>> On 22 Mar 2007 10:13:09 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>> On 22 Mar, 17:10, [email protected] (Ziggy) wrote:
>>>> In fact I'd be quite surprised if you managed to avoid shooting yourself moe
>>>> than once in a blue moon.
>>>> Best stick to doughnuts and fiddling the old overtime, eh?
>>> The small end with the hole points away from the user.

>> Wow, I'm impressed!
>>
>> I expect you count as an advanced expert knowing such a wealth of technical
>> detail.
>>
>> (I'm assuming that you do realise that you are the user. It would be sad if
>> there were any little misunderstandings when you seem to be doing *so* well.)

>
> ....if I told you I would have to kill you.
>

And you sound so down about the idea of it.

;)
 
On 22 Mar 2007 17:30:46 +0000 (GMT), David Damerell
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Quoting Ziggy <[email protected]>:
>>Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Oi! There's a queue, you know? I'm in front of you!

>>Come on guys, play nice, you can all join the idiot tendency.

>
>"Everyone thinks I'm an idiot! What can be wrong with them?"
>
>Your "idiot tendency" is fast growing to most of urc.


No, David, only those who are so stupid they can see some merit in your
preposterous attempts to cloud the issues that Raven and Taylor both denied
helmets could save lives and neither Taylor nor Smith have even a basic GCSE
grasp of probability theory.

You are like a little man with a flag yelling: "Can we have all the really
stupid people over here", and they all obediently go and join you.

There, you've achieved something: Poster boy for the idiot tendency.
 
On 22 Mar 2007 10:36:21 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>...if I told you I would have to kill you.


LOL. If you could find the gun, work out how to get the bullets into it and how
to make it actually fire them and ending up somewhere other than your foot.

Funnily enough I feel completely safe.
 
Ziggy wrote:
> On 22 Mar 2007 10:36:21 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> ...if I told you I would have to kill you.

>
> LOL. If you could find the gun, work out how to get the bullets into it and how
> to make it actually fire them and ending up somewhere other than your foot.
>
> Funnily enough I feel completely safe.


I'm assuming you're just being rude to sniper because of his profession.

I imagine the reason to feel completely safe is because we're only
talking about killing the onli...<plonk>
 
On 22 Mar, 17:45, [email protected] (Ziggy) wrote:
> On 22 Mar 2007 10:36:21 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >...if I told you I would have to kill you.

>
> LOL. If you could find the gun, work out how to get the bullets into it and how
> to make it actually fire them and ending up somewhere other than your foot.
>
> Funnily enough I feel completely safe.



Ha, ever think I could be lulling you into a false sense of security.
Once I have you completely fooled I intend to drive over you whilst
your scanning the rooftops for my combats and Gilly Suit.

Sniper8052
 
On 22 Mar 2007 17:32:58 +0000 (GMT), David Damerell
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Quoting Ziggy <[email protected]>:
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Well, yes, I can. I _am_ claiming that that makes it additionally obvious
>>>that jtaylor was talking about the overall net effect, and it does.

>>You seem incapable of reading what people wrote

>
>I read "the largest and best studies". I can easily see that must mean the
>writer is not talking about individual types of impact. Simple, really.


Not really. You are doing your usual trick of seeing one thing and deciding it
means something other than what it says.

Taylor incorrectly asserted that the probability of a helmet saving a life was
zero (or even -ve).

That is WRONG.

You are maintaining that the phrase 'the largest and best studies' somehow
corrects that and makes it say something other than what it does say. You are
living in cloud cukoo land.

>>>There certainly is, because of course when Tony wrote what he did he was
>>>denying what he thought you meant, not having realised you'd constructed
>>>this fantasy scenario.

>>This time you are imputing to a third party this habit of not reading and
>>answering what people wrote but you thought they might have meant by what they
>>wrote.

>
>It's not a habit; Tony made an understandable mistake once ...


Ha!

OK, you can stop right there.

At LAST you have admited that black is black and white is white.

If you'd done that in the first place you could have saved a GREAT deal of time.

I'm perfectly prepared to agree that the mistake was innocent. We all make
mistakes.
 
On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 17:47:20 GMT, Ambrose Nankivell <firstname+'n'@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Ziggy wrote:
>> On 22 Mar 2007 10:36:21 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> ...if I told you I would have to kill you.

>>
>> LOL. If you could find the gun, work out how to get the bullets into it and how
>> to make it actually fire them and ending up somewhere other than your foot.
>>
>> Funnily enough I feel completely safe.

>
>I'm assuming you're just being rude to sniper because of his profession.


No, because he's so animal stupid that he continues reading a thread until it
drives him homicidal.

Oh, and the fact that he then starts making jokes about killing people.

He's just *asking* to be made fun of.
 
On 22 Mar 2007 10:49:55 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 22 Mar, 17:45, [email protected] (Ziggy) wrote:
>> On 22 Mar 2007 10:36:21 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >...if I told you I would have to kill you.

>>
>> LOL. If you could find the gun, work out how to get the bullets into it and how
>> to make it actually fire them and ending up somewhere other than your foot.
>>
>> Funnily enough I feel completely safe.

>
>
>Ha, ever think I could be lulling you into a false sense of security.
>Once I have you completely fooled I intend to drive over you whilst
>your scanning the rooftops for my combats and Gilly Suit.


Damn!

Hadn't thought of that.
 
On 22 Mar, 17:55, [email protected] (Ziggy) wrote:
> On 22 Mar 2007 10:49:55 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >On 22 Mar, 17:45, [email protected] (Ziggy) wrote:
> >> On 22 Mar 2007 10:36:21 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:

>
> >> >...if I told you I would have to kill you.

>
> >> LOL. If you could find the gun, work out how to get the bullets into it and how
> >> to make it actually fire them and ending up somewhere other than your foot.

>
> >> Funnily enough I feel completely safe.

>
> >Ha, ever think I could be lulling you into a false sense of security.
> >Once I have you completely fooled I intend to drive over you whilst
> >your scanning the rooftops for my combats and Gilly Suit.

>
> Damn!
>
> Hadn't thought of that.



One must always use the right weapon for the situation. Hence when
selecting the appropriate asset thought should be given to the target,
range, environment and survivability of the methods under
consideration. Clearly when hunting a cyclist the ability to claim,
"it was an accident..." is an advantage not to be overlooked.

Sniper8052
 
On 22 Mar 2007 11:12:01 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>One must always use the right weapon for the situation. Hence when
>selecting the appropriate asset thought should be given to the target,
>range, environment and survivability of the methods under
>consideration. Clearly when hunting a cyclist the ability to claim,
>"it was an accident..." is an advantage not to be overlooked.


Seems to work almost 100% for motorists.

I wonder if a cyclist got shot they would feel impelled to mention it if they
were not wearing a helmet?

"A cyclist died today after being shot in the chest by fleeing bank robbers. He
was not wearing a helmet". It wouldn't surprise me :-(
 
On 22 Mar 2007 15:58:37 +0000 (GMT), David Damerell
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Quoting <[email protected]>:
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Who cares? It's a distraction; it's merely an amusing aside to notice that
>>>Ziggy couldn't even get it right.

>>He's practicing one of the more egregious forms of trolling -

>
>I don't think this is trolling, I think it's just the "I can never admit a
>mistake" madness.


Well, yes, I s'pose it could be described that way - I just detailed
the method; you went to the heart of the matter.

Precious little difference between him and TrollB; neither is worth
replying to.
 
Quoting Ziggy <[email protected]>:
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>I read "the largest and best studies". I can easily see that must mean the
>>writer is not talking about individual types of impact. Simple, really.

>Not really. You are doing your usual trick of seeing one thing and deciding it
>means something other than what it says.


It means, "the largest and best studies". Not ones dealing with individual
impacts.

>>It's not a habit; Tony made an understandable mistake once ...

>I'm perfectly prepared to agree that the mistake was innocent. We all make
>mistakes.


I'm certainly very glad if you admit that Tony did not write anything in
accordance with your fantasy scenario, but instead made the mistake of
assuming you were asserting something vaguely plausible. But is that
really your intention?
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!
Today is Second Leicesterday, March.
 
Quoting Ekul Namsob <[email protected]>:
>David Damerell <[email protected]> wrote:
>>It is precisely accurate. You and Luke are the only people defending the
>>absurd interpretation that supports your fantasy scenario.

>Er, sorry?


Let me try more clearly; only two people believe in Ziggy's fantasy
scenario. You are one of them.

>Now, what about that suggestion I have repeatedly made that we try to
>keep this discussion civil?


You might like to mention that to Ziggy, then.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!
Today is Second Leicesterday, March.
 
Quoting Ziggy <[email protected]>:
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>Quoting Ziggy <[email protected]>:
>>>Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>Oi! There's a queue, you know? I'm in front of you!
>>>Come on guys, play nice, you can all join the idiot tendency.

>>"Everyone thinks I'm an idiot! What can be wrong with them?"
>>Your "idiot tendency" is fast growing to most of urc.

>No, David,


Yes. Everyone who can still be bothered with this thread, apart from you
and Luke, is a member of your so-called "idiot tendency".
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!
Today is Second Leicesterday, March.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Ziggy says...
> On 22 Mar 2007 10:01:03 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >On 22 Mar, 16:51, [email protected] (Ziggy) wrote:
> >> On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 16:37:12 +0000, Tony Raven <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >[email protected] wrote on 22/03/2007 13:55 +0100:
> >>
> >> >> That was a serious question - Can't be bothered to use the kill file,
> >> >> can I just kill him?
> >>
> >> >Please, please, please, you will be the hero of urc ;-)
> >>
> >> I doubt he'll kill anyone, Tony.
> >>
> >> Anyone who is so animal stupid that he continues to read a thread that is really
> >> doing nothing more than going around in circles whiles claiming it is sapping
> >> his will to live and then compounds the problem by making a post that is only
> >> likely to stir it up all the more is rather likely to be too animal stupid to
> >> kill anyone. (Or at least, anyone he actually wants to).
> >>
> >> Sniper, why don't you sit back, eat a doughnut and relax rather than keep
> >> reading threads which are sapping your will to live.

> >
> >
> >Cos your so daft it's fun being daft about you back and some of the
> >others find my humor more fun than your arguments.
> >
> >Any how talking about you son not to you ...

>
> 'sOK, sniper. I know that you're a fully paid up member of the idiot tendency.
>
> Knew it as soon as you admitted that you'd kept up reading a thread that was
> sapping your will to live.
>
> Animal stupid, that ;-)
>
>

Sheesh! You know how to win friends and influence people don't you?
 
On Thu, 22 Mar, Ekul Namsob <> wrote:
> Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 21:54:04 +0000, Ekul Namsob <> wrote:
> > > Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Obviously, this is tricky to grasp, but it's a complex field that
> > > > very few people (Feynman, Dirac, Ziggy and Luke/Ekul) understand.
> > >
> > > By the way, my name is Luke. I would have thought you could have
> > > grasped that by now.

> >
> > Then fix your news posting software, because it says your name is
> > Ekul.

>
> Oh, bless. You might like to consider fixing your news software which
> fails to report my email address. Nowhere does this message claim that
> Ekul Namsob is my name. It is an identity.


I don't really know why I bother, but here goes:


Your posting contains the line:
From: [email protected] (Ekul Namsob)

You will note from RFC 850:
"2.1.3 From The From line contains the electronic mailing address
of the person who sent the message, in the ARPA internet syntax. It
may optionally also contain the full name of the person, in
parentheses, after the electronic address. "

Shall I repeat that?
"The From line contains ... the full name of the person, in
parenthesis". That is, the value in parenthesis in the from line of
an usenet message is the name of the person posting. So actually, you
are entirely wrong to say that nowhere does the message claim Ekul
Namsob is your name, it does so quite clearly in the from header.

If, as you claim, that is not your name, then my statement that your
news software is misconfigured is entirely correct. It is sending out
messages with the value Ekul Namsob in the place that the standard
requires your name (if anything) to be located. You appear to be
using a mac, posting using MacSOUP. You can fix it quite easily: if
you go to preferences and personality, you have "Ekul Namsob" filled
in the entry "Real Name". There's probably a clue there regarding
what should be filled in, but in case you don't spot it, it should be
your name.


However, let us suppose that you don't want to be accurate, and will
instead decide to argue in a philosophical or semantics-type manner:

Distinguishing between what might be your 'name' as opposed to what is
your 'identity' is nonsense. What you claim to be an 'identity' is a
label that identifies you to some degree. What you claim to be a
'name' is a label that identifies you to some degree. The two are
certainly both names and could both be called identities.

In fact 'identity' implies rather more, however - it generally implies
a more precise (or even unique) identification of an individual (as in
'identity card') or a fuller definition of the individual than just a
single label (as in 'identity theft'). As such, 'identity' is not
really a good description of a mere selected label. It is not
reasonable to describe either 'Luke' or 'Ekul' as an identity in this
manner.

Consequently, it is much more reasonable to describe your chosen label
"Ekul" as a name than as an identity.


regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
 
in message <[email protected]>, Ziggy
('[email protected]') wrote:

> On 22 Mar 2007 17:30:46 +0000 (GMT), David Damerell
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Quoting Ziggy <[email protected]>:
>>>Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>Oi! There's a queue, you know? I'm in front of you!
>>>Come on guys, play nice, you can all join the idiot tendency.

>>
>>"Everyone thinks I'm an idiot! What can be wrong with them?"
>>
>>Your "idiot tendency" is fast growing to most of urc.

>
> No, David, only those who are so stupid they can see some merit in your
> preposterous attempts to cloud the issues that Raven and Taylor both
> denied helmets could save lives and neither Taylor nor Smith have even a
> basic GCSE grasp of probability theory.


Helmets undoubtedly save some _particular_ lives; no-one doubts that and
you will not find any post anywhere in this thread or any other where Tony
or anyone else denies that. The point is that helmets also cost
_particular_ lives, and the question is whether the number of particular
lives helmets cost exceeds the number that they save. Frankly, the jury is
still out on that, but in my opinion (and in the opinion of many other
intelligent people who have studied the argument carefully) the balance of
the evidence is that helmets kill more people than they save. To repeat:
net, I believe that helmets do not save any lives, although they clearly
do save some particular lives.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter. Claiming that Tony has said
something which he patently has not said does not aid your argument any.

I suggest you calm down, study the evidence, and make your own judgement.
The judgement you come to may be different than the one that I (and Tony)
have come to: as I say, the evidence, either way, is not conclusive and
there is a judgement to be made. There's nothing shameful about honestly
disagreeing with someone. But study the evidence first.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

A message from our sponsor: This site is now in free fall
 
Ziggy wrote:
> On 22 Mar 2007 11:12:01 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>One must always use the right weapon for the situation. Hence when
>>selecting the appropriate asset thought should be given to the target,
>>range, environment and survivability of the methods under
>>consideration. Clearly when hunting a cyclist the ability to claim,
>>"it was an accident..." is an advantage not to be overlooked.

>
>
> Seems to work almost 100% for motorists.
>
> I wonder if a cyclist got shot they would feel impelled to mention it if they
> were not wearing a helmet?
>
> "A cyclist died today after being shot in the chest by fleeing bank robbers. He
> was not wearing a helmet". It wouldn't surprise me :-(


Ziggy,

After exhaustive experiment and data collection evidence that the
wearing, or not, of cycle helmets mitigates the effect of trauma to
other parts of the body has failed to render any universally accepted
data. What data there is in this regard is the subject of heated debate,
not only amongst scientific researchers but also amongst lay persons.
Anecdotal evidence is often called into the debate but this has proven
to be of little use in assessing the claims of either side in the light
of such evidence as is available which is scientifically valid and
accepted by both pro and anti helmet campaigns.

There is no empirical evidence to support the hypothesis put forward
above and evidence therefore needs to be gathered before any true
evaluation of the efficacy of cycle helmets in the protection of the
wearer from ballistic injury to non protected areas of the body can be
properly assessed.

Accordingly a series of tests have been arranged to gather this material.

In line with health and safety legislation, legal considerations,
ethical concerns and financial restraints it was proposed and seconded
that it would not be fit or proper to employ another person to undertake
such evaluations and that the researcher proposing the theory should
volunteer. This was accepted by all present at the meeting for the
following reasons.

1) None of those present felt they had the time or inclination to commit
themselves to such an arduous series of tests.
2) It raised certain moral questions that none of those present wanted
to answer or consider.
3) Lawyers amongst us felt that by using the researcher proposing the
hypothesis use might be made of the legal loophole of suicide.
4) A volunteer would not need payment and this would free funds for
other purposes.
5) Those involved in conducting the research might require access to
psychiatric help afterward, would need to be relocated, have new
identities and be protected from public prosecution. All of which is
expensive so money saved on a test subject in the form of a volunteer
was money well spent.
6) By volunteering the research subject in such a way reference was made
to the accepted Ratio that this is the normal method of selecting people
in the military and that the researchers conducting the tests felt it
important to maintain previous methodology in the interests of integrity.

A decision was then made as to expenses. It was decided that no funds
would be available to pay your personal expenses and that you should
purchase your own ticket to the test venue and provide yourself with a
packed lunch.

Life insurance was then discussed and a number of companies were
proposed. Enquiries revealed that the cost of insurance was prohibitive
and that the insurers felt that, in the event of their being forced to
pay out, they might spend considerable time and monies trying to locate
anyone willing to claim. As no insurance company seemed willing to
expend such monies or energy in finding persons willing to claim loss
for the death or permanent injury of the researcher the monies which
were payable to insure the researcher have been spent on hotel and
sundry expenses for those conducting the tests.

The research proposer is advised to bring with him his wallet and an
address to which any personal belongings might be donated.

To maintain the impartiality of the testing a number of blind observers
have been employed and their comments will be relied upon in making any
assessment of the data. Their observations will be made available to
reporters following expiration of the 25 year rules.

The tests will last all day and will follow the attached protocols so
that as much data can be gathered from this series of experiments.

Phase 1: Non-Lethal.

Subject will be dressed in normal clothes and progressively beaten with
non lethal implements whilst wearing a cycle helmet.

Reactions will be recorded by the observers.

Phase 1 will then be repeated without the cycle helmet.

Any differences will be noted by the observers.

Phase 2: Non-Lethal.

Subject will be dressed in cycle clothing to ascertain if this has any
effect either on the severity of the trauma suffered or on the
protection offered by wearing a helmet.

Differences will again be noted by the observers.

Phase 3: Mixed Munitions.

After much debate about the use of non lethal munitions it was agreed
that both non lethal and lethal munitions should be used, no decision
was made as to the order in which munitions should be used with some
favouring a mixed round approach and others feeling that it should be
left to the observers to stipulate the order best suited to the tests at
hand on the day. All felt that the use of purely non-lethal munitions
would call into question the validity and integrity of the tests.

Subject will be dressed as in previous phases and various lethal and
non-lethal munitions will be deployed.

Observers will record results as in phases 1 and 2 bearing in mind they
must only record the differences that they observe and not any other
influencing data such as sound.

The subject is reminded that firearms often make loud noises when
discharged and is urged not to duck if startled by such discharge. This
is to maintain the validity of the testing and is crucial at this stage.
If the subject were to duck and the helmet were damaged there may be
questions as to.

1) The validity of any conclusions drawn by the observers.

2) Who would responsible to the sponsor for replacement of the damaged
helmet - at present it is felt that the subject should bear the full
cost of replacement.

Phase 4: Reportage.

After all the physical tests have been completed the next phase would be
the reporting of the findings through the press.

It is proposed the subject be shown to three sets of reporters.

In the first instance One set of reporters will be shown the subjects
body wearing a cycle helmet and will be allowed access to interview the
observers.

The next set of reporters will view the subject wearing cycle clothing
but no cycle helmet they will again be given access to the observers for
comment.

As a control a blind panel of reporters will then view the body. This
panel is to be drawn from a group not connected with the previous two
groups. To make them wholly independent they will not have access to
the observers or any other data from the tests.

Final stage: Evaluation.

Having completed all the above stages the observers will then review the
printed reports from Phase 4 and add their comments.

These reports will then be assessed. The conclusions will be used to
prove or disprove the hypothesis of the researcher and add to the fund
of knowledge available to the debate. Indeed it is hoped that the tests
will be able to show a favourable conclusion to the debate one way or
the other.

In arranging the tests the panel has been minded by the data protection
act and will be advising you of the date time and venue by post.
Instructions for your attendance will be forwarded in a manila envelope
which will carry the legend "On Her Majesties Service".

Failure to attend the tests will render the research subject liable to
the full costs of the research and severe financial and other
constraints may be used to gather said monies and data at a later time.
No warning will be given of any actions taken in this regard.

Yours
 

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