Derive max theorical FTP from VO2max.
- Thread starter midlife
- Start date
midlife said:
Actually it was 5.46L.
Never involved in any endurance sport until I got a road bike 3yrs ago. Never tested for Vo2max during the time I played collegiate or professional football.
DancenMacabre said:
What I was getting at there is that I'm a predominantly type II athlete, verified by my very poor fat utilization (lab tested again) even at sub-threshold/max levels and my good performances in athletic events requiring explosive movements.
I think it will "take awhile" longer (all other aspects being equal) for an athlete with my muscle composition to reach his/her peak (if that's even possible) with regard to endurance performance relative to an athlete that starts on the path with a more endurance friendly muscle composition (greater percentage type I).
For the sake of argument 
My initial question was somewhat : can I use absolute Vo2max to set my FTP expectations ? (and no I don`t mean "predict performance" ... I mean put a "ballpark target" if all conditions are good... )
Using Coyle's data, some of the answers over here, and even Alex's formula.. I think I can (even if it's a self limiting prophecy)
I have to admit though that I did not account for the possibility of an increase of absolute Vo2max when I first asked the question. It is now pretty clear that it can improve. Not by huge margins ... but still enough to make a difference and move the target further.
This little graph I created with my data, Coyle's data, some of Tony's data and a friend`s data should fuel some more argumenting
My initial question was somewhat : can I use absolute Vo2max to set my FTP expectations ? (and no I don`t mean "predict performance" ... I mean put a "ballpark target" if all conditions are good... )
Using Coyle's data, some of the answers over here, and even Alex's formula.. I think I can (even if it's a self limiting prophecy
)I have to admit though that I did not account for the possibility of an increase of absolute Vo2max when I first asked the question. It is now pretty clear that it can improve. Not by huge margins ... but still enough to make a difference and move the target further.
This little graph I created with my data, Coyle's data, some of Tony's data and a friend`s data should fuel some more argumenting
midlife said:For the sake of argument
My initial question was somewhat : can I use absolute Vo2max to set my FTP expectations ? (and no I don`t mean "predict performance" ... I mean put a "ballpark target" if all conditions are good... )
Using Coyle's data, some of the answers over here, and even Alex's formula.. I think I can (even if it's a self limiting prophecy
I have to admit though that I did not account for the possibility of an increase of absolute Vo2max when I first asked the question. It is now pretty clear that it can improve. Not by huge margins ... but still enough to make a difference and move the target further.
This little graph I created with my data, Coyle's data, some of Tony's data and a friend`s data should fuel some more argumenting
Your 2nd data point is placed at coordinates 255W FTP, 4.1L VO2max. I did not see in this thread that you mentioned the 4.1L test result. Is that a guess?
midlife said:For the sake of argument
My initial question was somewhat : can I use absolute Vo2max to set my FTP expectations ? (and no I don`t mean "predict performance" ... I mean put a "ballpark target" if all conditions are good... )
Using Coyle's data, some of the answers over here, and even Alex's formula.. I think I can (even if it's a self limiting prophecy
I have to admit though that I did not account for the possibility of an increase of absolute Vo2max when I first asked the question. It is now pretty clear that it can improve. Not by huge margins ... but still enough to make a difference and move the target further.
This little graph I created with my data, Coyle's data, some of Tony's data and a friend`s data should fuel some more argumenting
Are you assuming that linear population data translates to linear individual development to theoretical max?
Talk about feelin' like an archaelogist. I was diggin around lots of old posts only to find this:
That would be Dave Ryan's calculations in the yellow column. Don't know what he thinks of the a few years later. They seem to add up close to the formulas I found in other posts on this blog like this one: 1.8 ((Power*6.12/Kg)+3.5)+3.5. Me & my hella **** vo2max of..............................50. Sorry, didnt mean to make anyone choke due to laughing too hard.
That would be Dave Ryan's calculations in the yellow column. Don't know what he thinks of the a few years later. They seem to add up close to the formulas I found in other posts on this blog like this one: 1.8 ((Power*6.12/Kg)+3.5)+3.5. Me & my hella **** vo2max of..............................50. Sorry, didnt mean to make anyone choke due to laughing too hard.
Yeah, the yellow column came from applying one of the posted P_VO2 Max to VO2 Max formulas. If it's the formula you listed then it appears to double dip on the baseline weight scaled O2 utilization rate of 3.5.DancenMacabre said:
The real problem is that I keyed it on 5 minute power as an estimate of P_VO2 Max but as I posted a page or two ago that almost certainly overestimates P_VO2 Max because of the AWC contribution or portion of that 5 minute power that's generated anaerobically.
IIRC, Alex suggested taking the last several minutes of a well paced 3 or 4k pursuit as a good estimate of P_VO2 Max which makes sense to me. You'd basically spend most of the AWC contribution in the start and first minute or two and then take the average for the rest as an estimate of max power produced aerobically.
Anyway, based on one or both of those issues I'd guess that the yellow column overestimates weight scaled VO2 Max.
-Dave
daveryanwyoming said:
Yea, I kinda got that from Tony also - that vo2max & power @ vo2max are not the same thing for all these reasons (like what you mention here too).
Guess it is time to knock that whopping 50 vo2max even lower. Thanks Dave
Never done a pursuit but would like to try. Thought it would be OK to try at the track on my road bike (you know, it being a solo TT and all that) but the velodrome managers said no road bikes period. Thats the reason for that geared bike/track question I posted.
So, no clue what my power in the last minutes of a pursuit would be. Probably low regardless.
Yeah, I take it your local track is Hellyer Park which has a great program that I highly recommend but they do lock it up tight outside of structured events/training. I spent a lot of time down at Hellyer back in the '80s and '90s and love that track, but I'm up in Seattle these days and I sure like the way Marymoor is open for training any time you feel like it, very handy for early morning TT bike aero testing or just a good place to do L4 efforts without traffic and stoplights.DancenMacabre said:
Well you don't need a track, just a two mile stretch of road without interruptions and preferably flat or at least steady moderate grade. Do a standing start with one foot on the ground, get up to speed quickly then settle into your best pace till the finish.
-Dave
Would you agree that the yellow column tracks FTP more unpredictably than the 5min MMP column?daveryanwyoming said:
midlife said:
In your post where you presented the graph, you said that you were looking for an 'if A, then B' analysis (or target range), where A = current Vo2max (L/min) and B = FTP (W), and where B may be current FTP or future FTP (with margin of error porportionate to time into the future).
However, in application, you used the chart in a 'if B, then A' analysis, plugging in current FTP and estimating current VO2max.
How does the chart help me with 'if A, then B' analysis (or target range), where A = current Vo2max (L/min) and B = FTP (W), and where B is future FTP (with margin of error)?
Yeah, you go from two swags (percentage of 5 minute MMP that's purely aerobic and GME) to three swags (add FTP as a percentage of MAP). That's not gonna help the accuracy of the prediction of FTP from VO2 Max or vice versa.Fightin Boba said:
-Dave
daveryanwyoming said:
Uh huh, hellyer that's right, for those saturday newbie sessions. Gotta say Dave, 1st time I went there it wasnt much fun. Flashbacks to ROTC boot camp (not good!!!) with the guy blowing a whistle and directing everyone. So bad that I said here in some post that track racing was boring/bad/no interest to me (more like the track manager nazis!!!). Made myself go back a few more times and now it has gotten much, much, much better. Makes more sense now why they do things the way they do. I kinda like the track.
Not often I feel super thin compared to other bicyclists but compared to many of the trackies, I am pretty skinny. Wish they had some racing going on sooner though. Weather is nice enough for months that it should be no big deal. I guess cross is all the rage here at this time of year.That pursuit test sound hella like a 4 minute max power test from a stop!!! I hurt just thinking about it. Not as bad as 1 minute test. Thats hell on earth. I will pay one of you guys $5 to do my 1 minute test for me!!!
If I did, I was simply passing on a similar comment originally made to me by Andy Coggan.daveryanwyoming said:
With the power meter file from a well paced pursuit effort, you can do an analysis to estimate the relative contributions from aerobic and anaerobic metabolism. It also enables one to make an estimate of their Maximal Accumulated Oxygen Deficit (the best measure of anaerobic capacity). This is referred to in the book, Training & Racing with a Power Meter (pp 189-192).
After some consultation with Andy, I wrote about it in this February 2007 blog post when we used the same technique to analysis what happens in a team pursuit.
Alex's Cycle Blog: Darth Vader Rides the Teams Pursuit
Fightin Boba said:
Don`t look at the second number. It is a guessed number (as indicated) and seems to be a distraction
Fightin Boba said:
The chart helps me see that a 3.7-.4.0 (L) ish cyclist does not typically dish out 300w for an hour. That is more than I new before I started this thread.
But I also now know that Vo2max can be improved so I am anxious to see my next test results. I suspect that people that are taken off the couch like me have a better chance of improving Vo2max (at first) than athletes that are already trained in other sports. But that possible Vo2max movement does indeed create more fuzz in my already fuzzy max theorical FTP business.
DancenMacabre said:That pursuit test sound hella like a 4 minute max power test from a stop!!! I hurt just thinking about it. Not as bad as 1 minute test. Thats hell on earth. I will pay one of you guys $5 to do my 1 minute test for me!!!
$5 isn't enough... and besides, go ride a kilo time trial and try to make a maximal effort in it. I can guarentee it'll pretty much be the most painful thing you'll do on a bike other than crash into stuff or fall off at speed... After that you'll lose the "this is going to hurt" mentality.
"Character building" is a good phrase for it. Just like being attacked several times on a hill when you're having a bad day and are about to lose your lunch...
acoggan said:
Yea, pain, pain................................and more pain!!!! Wait, wait, so acoggan is not A. Coggan? More than one A. Coggan here? *confused*
Swampy: $5 not gonna do it fer ya???? Gotta say that your diet + training approach is public know how in these parts. So if my $5 offer wont do then I know a 6-pack of beer and a powercranks sticker for the car.....will do
Did one single 1 minute test. Got a value on the power chart of 'moderate'. Decided that if I things go well in life, I will never need to do another 1 minute test
Similar threads
