DeRosa bicycle warranty?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Jim Cramer, Jun 24, 2003.

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  1. [email protected] wrote:

    > If the manufacturer knows what they are doing, a one year warranty is sufficient. They know that,
    > with their high quality manufacturing process, any defects in manufacturing are going to show up
    > within 12 months of riding.
    >
    > A manufacturer that does not know what they are doing (or just doesn't care) offers a lifetime
    > warranty because:

    Regardless of your comments on the quality of one specific manufacturer (Trek), your argument as to
    why a 1-year or lifetime warranty would be provided does not make sense.
     


  2. catbsq

    catbsq Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >
    > > If the manufacturer knows what they are doing, a one year warranty is sufficient. They know
    > > that, with their high quality manufacturing
    > process,
    > > any defects in manufacturing are going to show up within 12 months of riding.
    >
    >
    >
    > If that's true, then why not offer a lifetime warranty?
    >
    >

    Some do, for marketing purposes as well.

    Most don't to avoid the JRA types that want to warranty a frame they damaged due to their own fault.

    "Lifetime Warranty" is a phenomenon found most frequently in the USA. The frequency of consumers who
    refuse to accept blame for their own actions is higher in the USA. This is not just another anti-USA
    comment, this is based upon personal feedback from manufacturers in the industry. The cost of doing
    business is higher in the USA due to bogus warranty claims and high insurance premiums due to
    lawsuit happy consumers. So don't flame
    me...thanks.
     
  3. On 6/24/03 10:16 AM, in article [email protected], "Jim Cramer"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    > I have a DeRosa Aluminum (Altec), model "Planet", road bike that is less than 4 years and just
    > developed a crack 2/3 of the way around the right rear chainstay just ahead of the dropout.
    >
    > My local bike shop manager contacted some US DeRosa Rep who supposedly handles warranty issues and
    > was shocked to be told that DeRosa have only a 2-year warranty.
    >
    > The DeRosa web site does not seem to have warranty info on it.
    >
    > Does anyone know for sure what their warranty is? If you do, could you mail me the info.

    I'm surprised that DeRosa offers even a 2-year warranty on one of their aluminium frames ... Most of
    the Italian brands only offer 1-year on the aluminium stuff ...
     
  4. catbsq

    catbsq Guest

    "GregR" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 19:57:04 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >I have never wondered about this at all.
    > >
    > >Instead I wonder why anyone would ride a piece of crap Trek unless they
    were
    > >under contract...
    > >
    >
    > Thats a pretty lame troll attempt. Come on, I know you can do better than that.
    >
    > What is the world coming to...
    >
    > G

    seems to be working just fine!
     
  5. catbsq

    catbsq Guest

    "Stewart Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > [email protected] wrote:
    >
    > > If the manufacturer knows what they are doing, a one year warranty is sufficient. They know
    > > that, with their high quality manufacturing
    process,
    > > any defects in manufacturing are going to show up within 12 months of riding.
    > >
    > > A manufacturer that does not know what they are doing (or just doesn't
    care)
    > > offers a lifetime warranty because:
    >
    > Regardless of your comments on the quality of one specific manufacturer
    (Trek),
    > your argument as to why a 1-year or lifetime warranty would be provided
    does not
    > make sense.
    >
    >

    Manufacturer A
    - Spends a lot of money on R & D to develop the best use of high quality materials
    - Spends a lot of money to use high quality materials in manufacturing
    - Spends lot of money on skilled laborers to work by hand with high quality materials
    - Has confidence in their product (due to high quality materials, skilled labor, research, testing,
    etc.) to know that their products will last
    - Offers one year warranty to cover defects in manufacturing due to various reasons (bad batch of
    normally high quality materials from supplier, off-day for otherwise skilled labor, etc.) knowing
    that defects of this type show up almost immediately upon use of product
    - Due to tight profit margin on product, spends modest amount of money on promotion and marketing

    Manufacturer B
    - Spends a lot of money on R & D to figure out the cheapest way to use cheap materials
    - Buys cheap materials for manufacturing
    - Uses a few well paid engineers to run machines that build cheap product
    - Does not have confidence in their product (due to cheap materials, limitations of
    manufacturing process, evidence of failure in research and testing) and knows that a good
    number of products will fail
    - Profit margin on products is so incredible that defective frames can just be replaced with another
    cheap frame and company has still made profit
    - Offers lifetime warranty to deflect attention away from frame failure and turn upset consumer into
    happy consumer
    - Due to well padded profit margin on products, spends a lot of money on promotion and marketing

    Basically, what I am trying to say, is that a lifetime warranty does not show confidence in the
    manufactures product. Lifetime warranty keeps a customer happy that would otherwise question why
    their frame just up and broke after 18 months.
     
  6. Peter Allen

    Peter Allen Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Stewart Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >
    > > [email protected] wrote:
    > >
    > > > If the manufacturer knows what they are doing, a one year warranty is sufficient. They know
    > > > that, with their high quality manufacturing
    > process,
    > > > any defects in manufacturing are going to show up within 12 months of riding.
    > > >
    > > > A manufacturer that does not know what they are doing (or just doesn't
    > care)
    > > > offers a lifetime warranty because:
    > >
    > > Regardless of your comments on the quality of one specific manufacturer
    > (Trek),
    > > your argument as to why a 1-year or lifetime warranty would be provided
    > does not
    > > make sense.
    > >
    > >
    >
    > Manufacturer A
    > - Spends a lot of money on R & D to develop the best use of high quality materials
    > - Spends a lot of money to use high quality materials in manufacturing
    > - Spends lot of money on skilled laborers to work by hand with high
    quality
    > materials
    > - Has confidence in their product (due to high quality materials, skilled labor, research,
    > testing, etc.) to know that their products will last
    > - Offers one year warranty to cover defects in manufacturing due to
    various
    > reasons (bad batch of normally high quality materials from supplier,
    off-day
    > for otherwise skilled labor, etc.) knowing that defects of this type show
    up
    > almost immediately upon use of product
    > - Due to tight profit margin on product, spends modest amount of money on promotion and marketing

    So since A's bikes are so great, why don't they offer the lifetime guarantte, after all, their
    frames are indestructible, so it's not going to get claimed.

    Or possibly they're simply cutting out everything that's not necessary, in the name of saving a
    few grams of weight - which if I were chasing Lance up mountains I'd certainly appreciate - and
    know damn well their frames won't last much more than a year, which is why the guarantee is only
    that long.

    > Manufacturer B
    > - Spends a lot of money on R & D to figure out the cheapest way to use
    cheap
    > materials
    > - Buys cheap materials for manufacturing
    > - Uses a few well paid engineers to run machines that build cheap product
    > - Does not have confidence in their product (due to cheap materials, limitations of manufacturing
    > process, evidence of failure in research and testing) and knows that a good number of products
    > will fail
    > - Profit margin on products is so incredible that defective frames can
    just
    > be replaced with another cheap frame and company has still made profit
    > - Offers lifetime warranty to deflect attention away from frame failure
    and
    > turn upset consumer into happy consumer
    > - Due to well padded profit margin on products, spends a lot of money on promotion and marketing
    >
    > Basically, what I am trying to say, is that a lifetime warranty does not show confidence in the
    > manufactures product. Lifetime warranty keeps a customer happy that would otherwise question why
    > their frame just up and broke after 18 months.
     
  7. "us" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Nah I don't think Dave's xenophobic cause I've seen brand P in his shop, and he loves to sell
    > Campy..... :))

    Probably because he can't get ahold of Saavedra stuff anymore...
     
  8. Us

    Us Guest

    and so the 10 or 15 year warrenty on a Calfee says it a piece of shit too then?

    [email protected] wrote:

    > "Jay Beattie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >><[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >>
    >>>"Jay Beattie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>news:[email protected]...
    >>>
    >>>>I always wonder why people buy a C40 with a one year warranty rather than a Trek OCLV with a
    >>>>lifetime warranty and a devoted
    >>
    >>dealer
    >>
    >>>>network. -- Jay Beattie.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>I have never wondered about this at all.
    >>>
    >>>Instead I wonder why anyone would ride a piece of crap Trek unless
    >>
    >>they were
    >>
    >>>under contract...
    >>
    >>Why is the Trek a piece of crap? I don't own one, but I would like to know. The people I know who
    >>own OCLVs seem to like them very much, and I would even consider buying one myself if I were in
    >>the mood for spending money.
    >>
    >
    >
    > Why I feel the Trek a piece of crap:
    >
    > - Bladder molded frame allows for seams, parting lines and inconsistent tube wall thickness
    > - Upon curing, the exterior surface of the frame is so uneven that it requires the use of body
    > filler (bondo) to smooth out the tubes
    > - Voids present between the layers of carbon
    > - My own 1st hand experience with OCLV frames blowing apart.
    >
    > If the manufacturer knows what they are doing, a one year warranty is sufficient. They know that,
    > with their high quality manufacturing process, any defects in manufacturing are going to show up
    > within 12 months of riding.
    >
    > A manufacturer that does not know what they are doing (or just doesn't care) offers a lifetime
    > warranty because:
    >
    > - They know that a good number of their products will fail, due to manufacturing defect, after
    > one year.
    > - Their manufacturing process is so cheap versus what they charge for the frames that they can
    > afford to give away replacement frames forever.
    > - They are more concerned with marketing and advertising than making a quality product.
    >
    > The OCLV is good for one thing and that is making money for Trek...
     
  9. catbsq

    catbsq Guest

    "Peter Allen" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > "Stewart Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > [email protected] wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > If the manufacturer knows what they are doing, a one year warranty
    is
    > > > > sufficient. They know that, with their high quality manufacturing
    > > process,
    > > > > any defects in manufacturing are going to show up within 12 months
    of
    > > > > riding.
    > > > >
    > > > > A manufacturer that does not know what they are doing (or just
    doesn't
    > > care)
    > > > > offers a lifetime warranty because:
    > > >
    > > > Regardless of your comments on the quality of one specific
    manufacturer
    > > (Trek),
    > > > your argument as to why a 1-year or lifetime warranty would be
    provided
    > > does not
    > > > make sense.
    > > >
    > > >
    > >
    > > Manufacturer A
    > > - Spends a lot of money on R & D to develop the best use of high quality materials
    > > - Spends a lot of money to use high quality materials in manufacturing
    > > - Spends lot of money on skilled laborers to work by hand with high
    > quality
    > > materials
    > > - Has confidence in their product (due to high quality materials,
    skilled
    > > labor, research, testing, etc.) to know that their products will last
    > > - Offers one year warranty to cover defects in manufacturing due to
    > various
    > > reasons (bad batch of normally high quality materials from supplier,
    > off-day
    > > for otherwise skilled labor, etc.) knowing that defects of this type
    show
    > up
    > > almost immediately upon use of product
    > > - Due to tight profit margin on product, spends modest amount of money
    on
    > > promotion and marketing
    >
    > So since A's bikes are so great, why don't they offer the lifetime guarantte, after all, their
    > frames are indestructible, so it's not going
    to
    > get claimed.

    See previous post...

    Some do, for marketing purposes as well.

    Most don't to avoid the JRA types that want to warranty a frame they damaged due to their own fault.

    "Lifetime Warranty" is a phenomenon found most frequently in the USA. The frequency of consumers who
    refuse to accept blame for their own actions is higher in the USA. This is not just another anti-USA
    comment, this is based upon personal feedback from manufacturers in the industry. The cost of doing
    business is higher in the USA due to bogus warranty claims and high insurance premiums due to
    lawsuit happy consumers. So don't flame
    me...thanks.
     
  10. Ajames54

    Ajames54 Guest

    On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 01:47:11 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >"Jay Beattie" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >>
    >> <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >> >
    >> > "Jay Beattie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> > news:[email protected]...

    >
    >Why I feel the Trek a piece of crap:

    While I don't disagree with you about the overall comment...I would suggest that P.O.C. is an
    overstatement...
    >
    >- Bladder molded frame allows for seams, parting lines and inconsistent tube wall thickness...
    Are you sure your thinking about trek here? unless they changed production methods radically in the
    last couple of years the OCLV frames were a Tube and Lug design. The CF tubes and lugs were mandrel
    formed... Kestrel (I own one and love it BTW) is the company that uses bladder molds.

    >- Upon curing, the exterior surface of the frame is so uneven that it requires the use of body
    > filler (bondo) to smooth out the tubes
    Also Kestrel.. Once again Trek used to simply gel coat (majority of the bike, they may have used a
    filler in spots) they could get away with that because they were mandrel formed..

    >- Voids present between the layers of carbon

    Once again because they were formed the way they were they had / have fewer and smaller voids than
    most CF frames. Voids are expected and there are standards that govern the size and frequency.

    >- My own 1st hand experience with OCLV frames blowing apart.
    >
    That is certainly true especially in the first few years... most failed because of a phenomenon
    called inter laminate sheer,which occurred in the bond between the tube and the lug (most of those
    were at the bottom bracket). Then there were the Y-bikes which were just an abortion as far as CF
    construction was concerned.

    >
    >The OCLV is good for one thing and that is making money for Trek...

    When they first hit the market Trek positioned them as a product that was superior to a monocoq
    frame and at a lower price ... while time has shown that not to be the case, they do provide a
    reasonable value at their price point. The only real problem that I have with them is that
    people think they are what good CF is and can be... when there are actually far superior CF
    frames out there...
     
  11. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >If the manufacturer knows what they are doing, a one year warranty is sufficient. They know that,
    >with their high quality manufacturing process, any defects in manufacturing are going to show up
    >within 12 months of riding. A manufacturer that does not know what they are doing (or just doesn't
    >care) offers a lifetime warranty because:
    >- They know that a good number of their products will fail, due to manufacturing defect, after
    > one year.

    So what you're saying is that if you're confident that a frame that makes it to one year will last
    forever, you won't offer a lifetime warranty, even though it's a good selling point and won't cost
    you any money.

    However, if you _do_ expect frames to fall apart after one year, you _will_ offer a lifetime
    warranty, because that _will_ cost you money.

    Sure, that makes perfect sense...
    --
    David Damerell <[email protected]> Distortion Field!
     
  12. "ajames54" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > While I don't disagree with you about the overall comment...I would suggest that P.O.C. is an
    > overstatement...
    > >
    > >- Bladder molded frame allows for seams, parting lines and inconsistent
    tube
    > >wall thickness...
    > Are you sure your thinking about trek here? unless they changed production methods radically in
    > the last couple of years the OCLV frames were a Tube and Lug design. The CF tubes and lugs were
    > mandrel formed... Kestrel (I own one and love it BTW) is the company that uses bladder molds.

    Don't the carbon fork companies all use bladder molds also?
     
  13. catbsq

    catbsq Guest

    "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "ajames54" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > While I don't disagree with you about the overall comment...I would suggest that P.O.C. is an
    > > overstatement...
    > > >
    > > >- Bladder molded frame allows for seams, parting lines and inconsistent
    > tube
    > > >wall thickness...
    > > Are you sure your thinking about trek here? unless they changed production methods radically in
    > > the last couple of years the OCLV frames were a Tube and Lug design. The CF tubes and lugs were
    > > mandrel formed... Kestrel (I own one and love it BTW) is the company that uses bladder molds.
    >
    >
    >
    > Don't the carbon fork companies all use bladder molds also?
    >
    >

    nope.
     
  14. Jay Beattie

    Jay Beattie Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Peter Allen" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > > "Stewart Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in
    message
    > > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > [email protected] wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > > If the manufacturer knows what they are doing, a one year
    warranty
    > is
    > > > > > sufficient. They know that, with their high quality
    manufacturing
    > > > process,
    > > > > > any defects in manufacturing are going to show up within 12
    months
    > of
    > > > > > riding.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > A manufacturer that does not know what they are doing (or just
    > doesn't
    > > > care)
    > > > > > offers a lifetime warranty because:
    > > > >
    > > > > Regardless of your comments on the quality of one specific
    > manufacturer
    > > > (Trek),
    > > > > your argument as to why a 1-year or lifetime warranty would be
    > provided
    > > > does not
    > > > > make sense.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > > Manufacturer A
    > > > - Spends a lot of money on R & D to develop the best use of high
    quality
    > > > materials
    > > > - Spends a lot of money to use high quality materials in
    manufacturing
    > > > - Spends lot of money on skilled laborers to work by hand with
    high
    > > quality
    > > > materials
    > > > - Has confidence in their product (due to high quality materials,
    > skilled
    > > > labor, research, testing, etc.) to know that their products will
    last
    > > > - Offers one year warranty to cover defects in manufacturing due
    to
    > > various
    > > > reasons (bad batch of normally high quality materials from
    supplier,
    > > off-day
    > > > for otherwise skilled labor, etc.) knowing that defects of this
    type
    > show
    > > up
    > > > almost immediately upon use of product
    > > > - Due to tight profit margin on product, spends modest amount of
    money
    > on
    > > > promotion and marketing
    > >
    > > So since A's bikes are so great, why don't they offer the lifetime guarantte, after all, their
    > > frames are indestructible, so it's not
    going
    > to
    > > get claimed.
    >
    > See previous post...
    >
    > Some do, for marketing purposes as well.
    >
    > Most don't to avoid the JRA types that want to warranty a frame they
    damaged
    > due to their own fault.
    >
    > "Lifetime Warranty" is a phenomenon found most frequently in the USA.
    The
    > frequency of consumers who refuse to accept blame for their own
    actions is
    > higher in the USA. This is not just another anti-USA comment, this is
    based
    > upon personal feedback from manufacturers in the industry. The cost
    of
    > doing business is higher in the USA due to bogus warranty claims and
    high
    > insurance premiums due to lawsuit happy consumers. So don't flame
    > me...thanks.

    Funny. Campagnolo used to be famous for their life time warranty. I broke three or four NR cranks
    and relied on the goodness of PAB here in the US of A to get me replacements. Do you figure that if
    I had been riding in Europe, the cranks would not have broken.

    As for the C40, they do have a failure rate after one year, at least based on anecdotal reports. It
    is hard to tell what that rate is, however, because Colnogo probably does not collect warranty
    information after one year -- and I do not know if there is a CPSC equivalent in Italy that would
    require the keeping of incident reports. The good thing about a life time warranty is that it
    requires the manufacturer to track its product instead of relying on laboratory testing, modeling or
    fixture-testing as the sole predictors of product life. I have seen a number of products that were
    well designed, manufactured and tested but still broke after a year because they were exposed to
    unanticipated real-world stresses (this is why there are now so many gussets on mountain bikes).

    As for the OCLV frame, I do not know that much about the design, but I do know some of the people at
    Trek who designed it. I trust them. Perhaps the C40 is a better bike in some metaphysical way, but I
    am not going to pay $4000 to find out. -- Jay Beattie.
     
  15. Ajames54

    Ajames54 Guest

    On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 14:44:30 GMT, "Kurgan Gringioni"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >"ajames54" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >>
    >> While I don't disagree with you about the overall comment...I would suggest that P.O.C. is an
    >> overstatement...
    >> >
    >> >- Bladder molded frame allows for seams, parting lines and inconsistent
    >tube
    >> >wall thickness...
    >> Are you sure your thinking about trek here? unless they changed production methods radically in
    >> the last couple of years the OCLV frames were a Tube and Lug design. The CF tubes and lugs were
    >> mandrel formed... Kestrel (I own one and love it BTW) is the company that uses bladder molds.
    >
    >
    >
    >Don't the carbon fork companies all use bladder molds also?
    >
    Most do..

    Kestrel, Reynolds and True Temper I'm sure of... the only big one I'm pretty sure isn't is Time..
     
  16. It's really quite simple a large bike manufacturer can afford to warranty a some frames since they
    make so many other bikes. Personally I prefer to with one of major manufacturers unless the company
    has a lifetime or 25 year warranty. [email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Stewart Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >
    > > [email protected] wrote:
    > >
    > > > If the manufacturer knows what they are doing, a one year warranty is sufficient. They know
    > > > that, with their high quality manufacturing
    > process,
    > > > any defects in manufacturing are going to show up within 12 months of riding.
    > > >
    > > > A manufacturer that does not know what they are doing (or just doesn't
    > care)
    > > > offers a lifetime warranty because:
    > >
    > > Regardless of your comments on the quality of one specific manufacturer
    > (Trek),
    > > your argument as to why a 1-year or lifetime warranty would be provided
    > does not
    > > make sense.
    > >
    > >
    >
    > Manufacturer A
    > - Spends a lot of money on R & D to develop the best use of high quality materials
    > - Spends a lot of money to use high quality materials in manufacturing
    > - Spends lot of money on skilled laborers to work by hand with high quality materials
    > - Has confidence in their product (due to high quality materials, skilled labor, research,
    > testing, etc.) to know that their products will last
    > - Offers one year warranty to cover defects in manufacturing due to various reasons (bad batch of
    > normally high quality materials from supplier, off-day for otherwise skilled labor, etc.)
    > knowing that defects of this type show up almost immediately upon use of product
    > - Due to tight profit margin on product, spends modest amount of money on promotion and marketing
    >
    > Manufacturer B
    > - Spends a lot of money on R & D to figure out the cheapest way to use cheap materials
    > - Buys cheap materials for manufacturing
    > - Uses a few well paid engineers to run machines that build cheap product
    > - Does not have confidence in their product (due to cheap materials, limitations of manufacturing
    > process, evidence of failure in research and testing) and knows that a good number of products
    > will fail
    > - Profit margin on products is so incredible that defective frames can just be replaced with
    > another cheap frame and company has still made profit
    > - Offers lifetime warranty to deflect attention away from frame failure and turn upset consumer
    > into happy consumer
    > - Due to well padded profit margin on products, spends a lot of money on promotion and marketing
    >
    > Basically, what I am trying to say, is that a lifetime warranty does not show confidence in the
    > manufactures product. Lifetime warranty keeps a customer happy that would otherwise question why
    > their frame just up and broke after 18 months.
     
  17. Mike S.

    Mike S. Guest

    > It's really quite simple a large bike manufacturer can afford to warranty a some frames since they
    > make so many other bikes. Personally I prefer to with one of major manufacturers unless the
    > company has a lifetime or 25 year warranty.

    So, that eliminates most if not all Italian frames, Dura Ace components, Specialized AL bikes, and
    many, many others. What's left? Cannondales? Treks? Ugh.

    I'll put up with the POSSIBILITY that the frame's going to break some years down the road because I
    know that unless I've done something to it, it probably won't break. But that's me, YMMV.

    Mike
     
  18. Jay Beattie

    Jay Beattie Guest

    "Mike S." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > It's really quite simple a large bike manufacturer can afford to warranty a some frames since
    > > they make so many other bikes. Personally I prefer to with one of major manufacturers unless the
    > > company has a lifetime or 25 year warranty.
    >
    > So, that eliminates most if not all Italian frames, Dura Ace
    components,
    > Specialized AL bikes, and many, many others. What's left?
    Cannondales?
    > Treks? Ugh.
    >
    > I'll put up with the POSSIBILITY that the frame's going to break some
    years
    > down the road because I know that unless I've done something to it, it probably won't break. But
    > that's me, YMMV.

    The whiz-bang modern frames cannot be fixed if and when something goes wrong. Back in the good ol'
    steel days, even if your $450 (1975 dollars) Masi broke, you could braze it up yourself or for a few
    bucks and it was good for a few more seasons. And your Masi probably would not break unless
    Guido-the-main-triangle-guy cooked the headtube or something. Materials these days are much more
    fussy, and they do break. Just follow the "I found a crack" threads on RBT. That does not mean you
    cannot take a chance, or buy a frame with less than a life-time warranty. It just makes it rather
    stupid to buy a $4000 frame with a one-year warranty that is void if you race the frame and which is
    subject to an unknown risk of cracking, delamination, etc. which will render the frame land-fill. --
    Jay Beattie.
     
  19. Mike S.

    Mike S. Guest

    > > It's really quite simple a large bike manufacturer can afford to
    > > > warranty a some frames since they make so many other bikes. Personally I prefer to with one of
    > > > major manufacturers unless the company has a lifetime or 25 year warranty.
    > >
    > > So, that eliminates most if not all Italian frames, Dura Ace
    > components,
    > > Specialized AL bikes, and many, many others. What's left?
    > Cannondales?
    > > Treks? Ugh.
    > >
    > > I'll put up with the POSSIBILITY that the frame's going to break some
    > years
    > > down the road because I know that unless I've done something to it, it probably won't break. But
    > > that's me, YMMV.
    >
    > The whiz-bang modern frames cannot be fixed if and when something goes wrong. Back in the good ol'
    > steel days, even if your $450 (1975 dollars) Masi broke, you could braze it up yourself or for a
    > few bucks and it was good for a few more seasons. And your Masi probably would not break unless
    > Guido-the-main-triangle-guy cooked the headtube or something. Materials these days are much more
    > fussy, and they do break. Just follow the "I found a crack" threads on RBT. That does not mean you
    > cannot take a chance, or buy a frame with less than a life-time warranty. It just makes it rather
    > stupid to buy a $4000 frame with a one-year warranty that is void if you race the frame and which
    > is subject to an unknown risk of cracking, delamination, etc. which will render the frame
    > land-fill. -- Jay Beattie.
    >
    >
    Personally, I don't think its the smartest thing to buy a $4000 frame in the first place, but
    that's just me.

    Thinking about it, this discussion is why there's more than one brand of bike out there. Don't like
    the warranty? buy something else. Don't care and want the newest, bestest? Buy whatever the heck
    you want to.

    Mike
     
  20. ajames54 wrote:
    > On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 14:44:30 GMT, "Kurgan Gringioni"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>"ajames54" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>news:[email protected]...
    >>
    >>>While I don't disagree with you about the overall comment...I would suggest that P.O.C. is an
    >>>overstatement...
    >>>
    >>>>- Bladder molded frame allows for seams, parting lines and inconsistent
    >>>
    >>tube
    >>
    >>>>wall thickness...
    >>>
    >>>Are you sure your thinking about trek here? unless they changed production methods radically in
    >>>the last couple of years the OCLV frames were a Tube and Lug design. The CF tubes and lugs were
    >>>mandrel formed... Kestrel (I own one and love it BTW) is the company that uses bladder molds.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>Don't the carbon fork companies all use bladder molds also?
    >>
    >
    > Most do..
    >
    > Kestrel, Reynolds and True Temper I'm sure of... the only big one I'm pretty sure isn't is Time..

    Another carbon for that that isn't bladder molded is WoundUp, whose round fork blades are
    filament wound:

    http://www.advancedcomposites.com/woundup.htm

    Mark McMaster [email protected]
     
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