Describe Your Best L6 Intervals

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by wiredued, Mar 11, 2008.

  1. wiredued

    wiredued New Member

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    I am a little rusty at these in the past I did 7x2s based on RPE alone. I am now wondering what my average power should be in a percent of FTP and any details on how to approach them. I currently break the 2 minute interval up into three 40 second segments that increase in intensity the third is an all out effort. Is this in the ball park for an L6 workout? Thanks
     
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  2. strader

    strader New Member

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    I do 1 minute intervals and try to hold it above 500 watts for the entire duration. I have tried going all out from the start but power falls off very quickly after the first 20 seconds or so, and I end up finishing at around 400 watts with a lower average wattage for the interval. I also get fried after a few intervals if I go all out from the start.
     
  3. Spunout

    Spunout New Member

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    Both! Try some 45s or 1m30s intervals all-out from the start.

    Also, try some shorter 30s or 2m intervals at target power from the beginning.

    In racing, responding to an attack is usually a hard accelleration followed by a period of intense effort.
     
  4. wiredued

    wiredued New Member

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    Thanks for the advice I am also thinking of adding a 2 minute jump start to my second or third 20 minute L4 interval so I never completely lose my acceleration. Is that a good place to blend it in with the usual L4 workout? I suppose there would be an L3 low point following that effort then back up to L4 when the energy is right.
     
  5. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    It's impossible to go all out for a minute.

    Ask any good Kilo rider. If you really want to watch someone suffer "a thousand deaths" on the bike, head down to the track and watch people ride that event. A couple will pace it right, the rest....... *ouch*
     
  6. DennistheMennis

    DennistheMennis New Member

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    Amen! The 1-minutes are the hardest workout I've ever done. Whether on a track or not. I get light-headed, dizzy and even slightly nauseous!

    I believe that true "all-out" is only possible for 8-10 seconds. But I suppose you could say that there's an "all-out" for any interval length, as "FTP" would be your "all-out" for 1 hour. Pacing yourself for the kilo would be at your roughly 1-minute "all-out". (My kilo is more like 1:17, so it would be my 1:17 "all-out"!)

    To get back to the OP's topic: I like to do my L6 intervals on a fairly steep hill. I start at the level section just before the base, smoothly power up to the hill, and hammer for 1 minute. Puke and repeat 10 times, once a week for a few weeks before your peak. Ugh.
     
  7. Alex Simmons

    Alex Simmons Member

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    Actually the most successful kilo racers use an all out pacing strategy. There's also some research to support the approach taken by top riders.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=search&term=cycling 1000 metre time trial

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA
     
  8. postal_bag

    postal_bag New Member

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    "all-out" refers to RPE, in this situation. So, although your power output will fall drastically, you continue to go "all-out" until the interval is over.
     
  9. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    I guess "all out" doesn't mean absolutely everything you have anymore. Pacing implies that moderation had to be given in some way shape or form.

    In an age where "everyone is a winner" and "it's taking part that counts" I shouldn't have expected anything less. :p

    LOL
     
  10. Steve_B

    Steve_B New Member

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    :confused:

    At the effort level involved in the kilo or, closer to home for me, a 1-minute L6 power test, I really doubt that you have very precise pacing control except to say that you start out with an effort level "slightly less than a standing-start max effort sprint"* and then try to hold that level of exertion for the duration. I think that's about as precise as you can be in a practical sense and to try to get any finer is splitting hairs.

    Quite frankly, when I get done with one of these, I'm usually either in danger of blacking-out and falling onto the road or of losing control of my bladder and sometimes both. To say that this isn't "all out" seems a bit strange to me.

    *That's how I get the best average power out of myself when I do 60-second tests.
     
  11. Spunout

    Spunout New Member

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    Agree on the 1 minute, my power output always sloped downwards. Some of the best ones steeper.
     
  12. acoggan

    acoggan Member

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    Ditto!

    Heh - glad to hear that I'm not the only one who has that sensation! I chalk it up to a massive parasympathetic discharge as soon as the effort ceases, which not only causes your heart rate to slow, but also your bladder to contract...
     
  13. vladav

    vladav New Member

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    My best L6 workout is the one that I skip... MOMMMMY!!!
     
  14. Steve_B

    Steve_B New Member

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    It's not something that I'm really proud to admit but I figure it's like one of those more "socially accepted" things that happen under duress: vomitting, blacking out, etc.

    If you say so. You would know better than I would.

    I guess if we had a head-to-head kilo race, it could turn into a real "pissing contest". ;):)
     
  15. Steve_B

    Steve_B New Member

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    Here's one that I did last year. 8 x 30sec with 90 sec recovery. I do these on a short hill that has a flatter section in the middle, as you can detect from the image.. Not that it's my choice to have the flat section, just that it's a convenient hill. I did the last 7 of the 8 at around 650 Watts, which was about 225% of my FTP at the time.

    Note that 90sec is a decent recovery period, IMO. You can shorten the recovery periods and that will have the effect of probably lowering the peak powers that you obtain but also making the entire block (all work + all recoveries periods) more aerobic in nature, forcing your aerobic system to work harder to replenish the oxygen debt.

    Take the short recovery to an extreme perhaps, and you've got something some people call "Tabata intervals".
     
  16. Steve_B

    Steve_B New Member

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    Like this.
     
  17. wiredued

    wiredued New Member

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    Thanks Steve_B... Isn't 30s intervals considered L7? The acceleration I'm looking for is the kind that will keep me with the break away at the start of a race. I was caught unprepared last year in a 3 lap race on a 1mile per lap course when three riders moving much faster than the group passed everyone at the start on the outside and after the first lap could not even be seen any more. The gap was so big people were crossing the street as the gap went by... I suspect they were sand baggers.:eek:

     
  18. Steve_B

    Steve_B New Member

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    Understand that at that duration there is a neuromuscular (L7) contribution and contribution from other energy systems as well. See The Road Cyclist’s Guide to Training by Power, by Charles Howe, which is accessible (indirectly) here and (directly) here . Pages 5-8 are relevant background info. Figures 6-11 in the page 40-45 area are relevant too.


    I view that as a combination of a lot of things. Attacking hard and then holding it to stay away, although certainly at a somewhat reduced power from the initial attack. That's probably a combination of many systems and certainly mostly a healthy aerobic system (L5 and below). Why? It gives you the ability to recover from that hard initial attack but also your aerobic system is what governs (or "caps") the upper end of your efforts beyond about 3 minutes or so. I couldn't do those 8x30 second intervals I show a few posts back maintaining that power out to the eighth interval without a healthy (for me) aerobic system replenishing my system. So, in attacking "at the starting gun" (or as we say here, "from the parking lot") like that, there is some anaerobic contribution initially but the ability to hold on like that is predominately aerobic in nature.

    Those folks have a nice high FTP for the category they were racing. So, once again, we're back to why aerobic work should be the basis of your training. It is because a healthy aerobic system is so central to the demands of mass-start racing. That's not to say that L6 isn't important, just that it's not the dominant issue in the scenario you mention.
     
  19. Steve_B

    Steve_B New Member

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    That was poorly written but I think you get the point. Just in case it wasn't clear...

    The initial attack was definately anaerobic/neuromuscular/eyeball-searing and then as their anaerobic systems ran out of gas, their aerobic system took over. It had to allow them to recover from that attack but also carry on at such a high level than no one was going to bother to try to bridge. Looking at the time scale and the distances involved, the aerobic system is what really has the most effect in this scenario. Sure, a lightning fast jump is great for the shock value but had they not had a very high FTP, the group would probably have caught them eventually as their ability to replenish after the attack and keep riding hard to stay away was pushed to the limit.
     
  20. strader

    strader New Member

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    Yesterday I tried L6 intervals again using ALL OUT pacing. On the first effort I set a PB for 1 minute power at 555 watt average. I'm finally in the "good" range of the Coggan power profile chart, and about 30 watts higher than my previous average. :D

    On the successive intervals average power fell off considerably: 555 watts, 442, 400, 449, 412, and a final wimper at 376 average watts. Between each effort I was spinning easy (<150 watts) for at least 5 minutes. I planned to do 10 L6 intervals, but called it quits after the last effort which was closer to my VO2max power. Is this reasonable for a L6 workout? Do I just need to train L6 more? I would think I have a good enough base with all the L3/4 I have been doing (ctl=86).
    This got me thinking: what if instead of setting aside a day every other week to train L6, I instead do a single 1 minute L6/7 effort two days per week on the days when I do L3/4 training. I would get the same weekly avg volume at L6 and be able to maximize the quality of the L6 workout (target ~550 watt average). L4 would seem easy after a L6/7 effort, but is a single 1 minute effort enough to trigger adaptation?
     
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