"Designing Healthy Communities: Raising Healthy Kids"

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Fred Goodwin, CMA, Apr 4, 2006.

  1. Jeanne

    Jeanne Guest

    Erik Sandblom wrote:
    > i artikel [email protected], skrev Mike
    > Kruger på [email protected] den 06-04-26 03.42:
    >
    >
    >>"Erik Sandblom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>news:C07431BF.1C139%[email protected]
    >>
    >>>I don't see how maintenance could be an issue. Water and sewage and roads
    >>>etc also need maintenance, but you don't get people saying "oooh, can't
    >>>have
    >>>sewage pipes, who is going to maintain them?"
    >>>

    >>
    >>Wrong. "Who pays for replacement" is often an interesting political battle
    >>for upgraded water lines, sewage lines, and roads. For example, if upgraded
    >>storm sewers are needed to prevent storm flooding, should this cost be borne
    >>by all the taxpayers in the district, those who live along the line to be
    >>rebuilt, or only that subset who have flooding problems? There are no right
    >>or wrong answers, just hard questions.
    >>
    >>As for roads: why are some expressways in the Chicago area toll roads paid
    >>for by those who use them , while others are free and paid for by general
    >>taxes? In the end, it was who had (a) more money and (b) less political
    >>clout.

    >
    >
    >
    > Okay, I didn't know that. Sometimes I think democracy can get a little
    > excessive. Why not just pay your tax and leave things like sewage to the
    > experts?


    Money. There's not enough of it, so arguments arise over who will pay.

    >Do you have arguments about what colour to paint the stripes on the
    > road too?
    >


    Maybe. There have been arguments over *where* to paint the stripes
    (e.g., should the roads be striped to allow bike lanes?).
     


  2. Bill Baka

    Bill Baka Guest

    Jeanne wrote:
    > Erik Sandblom wrote:
    >> i artikel [email protected], skrev Mike
    >> Kruger på [email protected] den 06-04-26 03.42:
    >>
    >>
    >>> "Erik Sandblom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>> news:C07431BF.1C139%[email protected]
    >>>
    >>>> I don't see how maintenance could be an issue. Water and sewage and
    >>>> roads
    >>>> etc also need maintenance, but you don't get people saying "oooh, can't
    >>>> have
    >>>> sewage pipes, who is going to maintain them?"
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Wrong. "Who pays for replacement" is often an interesting political
    >>> battle
    >>> for upgraded water lines, sewage lines, and roads. For example, if
    >>> upgraded
    >>> storm sewers are needed to prevent storm flooding, should this cost
    >>> be borne
    >>> by all the taxpayers in the district, those who live along the line
    >>> to be
    >>> rebuilt, or only that subset who have flooding problems? There are
    >>> no right
    >>> or wrong answers, just hard questions.
    >>>
    >>> As for roads: why are some expressways in the Chicago area toll roads
    >>> paid
    >>> for by those who use them , while others are free and paid for by
    >>> general
    >>> taxes? In the end, it was who had (a) more money and (b) less political
    >>> clout.

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Okay, I didn't know that. Sometimes I think democracy can get a little
    >> excessive. Why not just pay your tax and leave things like sewage to the
    >> experts?

    >
    > Money. There's not enough of it, so arguments arise over who will pay.
    >
    >> Do you have arguments about what colour to paint the stripes on the
    >> road too?
    >>

    >
    > Maybe. There have been arguments over *where* to paint the stripes
    > (e.g., should the roads be striped to allow bike lanes?).
    >

    You just got me back into this since I kind of pushed it along about
    greedy developers not giving a damn about the neighborhood they are
    building. They tore out the 100 year old trees (all 3 of them) to make
    room for new houses. They put up signs saying 1; (Proposed park) yet to
    be built, and 2; (Proposed school) yet to be built, so all the families
    that moved there have to send their kids to the already vastly
    overcrowded local schools.
    The icing on the cake came for me yesterday when I was riding around the
    houses still being built and looked at the air conditioning units that
    were being installed on these $300,000 box houses. The legal SEER was
    from 10.0 to 17.0+ and guess what, they were all 10.0, as in el-cheapo
    and maximum profit for the (need I say it?) GREEDY developer. These
    people are going to have a big surprise when they try to cool their
    barely insulated houses in the local 100+ summers. The electric bills
    are going to be over $400 a month so the developer saves a few hundred
    bucks a house and the chump that buys it pays an extra hundred every
    month for as long as he owns the house.
    Bike paths?
    You have to be kidding. This developer builds and runs to the next
    county. They could give a crap once the houses are sold and the
    complaints start coming in. Not their problem since the county didn't
    enforce decent development.
    The only bike lanes are on the main roads where everyone is hauling anyway.
     
  3. They put the bike paths in first around here. No kidding, and they all
    have to interconnect with the Town's master bike path system. Every
    subdivision is interconnected with the main system, which goes to
    downtown Denver and beyond.
     
  4. == They put the bike paths in first around here. No kidding, and they
    all
    have to interconnect with the Town's master bike path system. Every
    subdivision is interconnected with the main system, which goes to
    downtown Denver and beyond.


    Denver sounds like it is way ahead of the game.
     
  5. "Bill Baka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]


    > >

    > You just got me back into this since I kind of pushed it along about
    > greedy developers not giving a damn about the neighborhood they are
    > building.


    I suppose selfless city administrations can house you in their public
    housing units, obviously nirvana for you and your parents.
     
  6. "Colorado Bicycler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > They put the bike paths in first around here. No kidding, and they all
    > have to interconnect with the Town's master bike path system. Every
    > subdivision is interconnected with the main system, which goes to
    > downtown Denver and beyond.
    >


    Lovely. Those bike paths extend all the way to LA?
     
  7. <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > == They put the bike paths in first around here. No kidding, and they
    > all
    > have to interconnect with the Town's master bike path system. Every
    > subdivision is interconnected with the main system, which goes to
    > downtown Denver and beyond.
    >
    >
    > Denver sounds like it is way ahead of the game.
    >


    What about horse trails for mules?
     
  8. i artikel [email protected], skrev Jeanne på
    [email protected] den 06-04-26 13.44:

    > Erik Sandblom wrote:
    >> i artikel [email protected], skrev Mike
    >> Kruger på [email protected] den 06-04-26 03.42:
    >>
    >>> "Erik Sandblom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>> news:C07431BF.1C139%[email protected]
    >>>
    >>>> I don't see how maintenance could be an issue. Water and sewage and roads
    >>>> etc also need maintenance, but you don't get people saying "oooh, can't
    >>>> have sewage pipes, who is going to maintain them?"
    >>>
    >>> Wrong. "Who pays for replacement" is often an interesting political battle
    >>> for upgraded water lines, sewage lines, and roads. For example, if upgraded
    >>> storm sewers are needed to prevent storm flooding, should this cost be borne
    >>> by all the taxpayers in the district, those who live along the line to be
    >>> rebuilt, or only that subset who have flooding problems? There are no right
    >>> or wrong answers, just hard questions.
    >>>
    >>> As for roads: why are some expressways in the Chicago area toll roads paid
    >>> for by those who use them , while others are free and paid for by general
    >>> taxes? In the end, it was who had (a) more money and (b) less political
    >>> clout.

    >>
    >> Okay, I didn't know that. Sometimes I think democracy can get a little
    >> excessive. Why not just pay your tax and leave things like sewage to the
    >> experts?

    >
    > Money. There's not enough of it, so arguments arise over who will pay.



    Arguments cost money too. Sometimes directly in the form of ad campaigns,
    but always indirectly in time unusable for other purposes.

    So this kind of direct democracy, where you argue over sewage costs, is
    quite expensive compared to representative democracy, where you elect a guy
    or some guys who quietly take care of it.


    --
    Erik Sandblom
    my site is EriksRailNews.com
    for those who don't believe, no explanation is possible
    for those who do, no explanation is necessary
     
  9. i artikel [email protected], skrev George
    Conklin på [email protected] den 06-04-26 21.03:
    >
    > "Bill Baka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >> You just got me back into this since I kind of pushed it along about
    >> greedy developers not giving a damn about the neighborhood they are
    >> building.

    >
    > I suppose selfless city administrations can house you in their public
    > housing units, obviously nirvana for you and your parents.



    Selfless?

    What ever happened to selling something you're proud of, building a
    reputation and profiting from that?

    I can really recommend Philip Kotler "Principles of Marketing". It's a
    staple of business education. One of the things marketing people talk about
    is "building a brand", which is just newspeak for "building a reputation".

    --
    Erik Sandblom
    my site is EriksRailNews.com
    for those who don't believe, no explanation is possible
    for those who do, no explanation is necessary
     
  10. "Erik Sandblom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:C0766FB8.1C217%[email protected]
    > i artikel [email protected], skrev

    George
    > Conklin på [email protected] den 06-04-26 21.03:
    > >
    > > "Bill Baka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > >
    > >> You just got me back into this since I kind of pushed it along about
    > >> greedy developers not giving a damn about the neighborhood they are
    > >> building.

    > >
    > > I suppose selfless city administrations can house you in their public
    > > housing units, obviously nirvana for you and your parents.

    >
    >
    > Selfless?
    >
    > What ever happened to selling something you're proud of, building a
    > reputation and profiting from that?
    >
    > I can really recommend Philip Kotler "Principles of Marketing". It's a
    > staple of business education. One of the things marketing people talk

    about
    > is "building a brand", which is just newspeak for "building a reputation".


    You spoke of greedy developers. Now you praise greedy developers. You
    don't know your own mind now do you?
     
  11. "Erik Sandblom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:C0766E6F.1C215%[email protected]
    > i artikel [email protected], skrev Jeanne på
    > [email protected] den 06-04-26 13.44:
    >
    > > Erik Sandblom wrote:
    > >> i artikel [email protected], skrev Mike
    > >> Kruger på [email protected] den 06-04-26 03.42:
    > >>
    > >>> "Erik Sandblom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >>> news:C07431BF.1C139%[email protected]
    > >>>
    > >>>> I don't see how maintenance could be an issue. Water and sewage and

    roads
    > >>>> etc also need maintenance, but you don't get people saying "oooh,

    can't
    > >>>> have sewage pipes, who is going to maintain them?"
    > >>>
    > >>> Wrong. "Who pays for replacement" is often an interesting political

    battle
    > >>> for upgraded water lines, sewage lines, and roads. For example, if

    upgraded
    > >>> storm sewers are needed to prevent storm flooding, should this cost be

    borne
    > >>> by all the taxpayers in the district, those who live along the line to

    be
    > >>> rebuilt, or only that subset who have flooding problems? There are no

    right
    > >>> or wrong answers, just hard questions.
    > >>>
    > >>> As for roads: why are some expressways in the Chicago area toll roads

    paid
    > >>> for by those who use them , while others are free and paid for by

    general
    > >>> taxes? In the end, it was who had (a) more money and (b) less

    political
    > >>> clout.
    > >>
    > >> Okay, I didn't know that. Sometimes I think democracy can get a little
    > >> excessive. Why not just pay your tax and leave things like sewage to

    the
    > >> experts?

    > >
    > > Money. There's not enough of it, so arguments arise over who will pay.

    >
    >
    > Arguments cost money too. Sometimes directly in the form of ad campaigns,
    > but always indirectly in time unusable for other purposes.
    >
    > So this kind of direct democracy, where you argue over sewage costs, is
    > quite expensive compared to representative democracy, where you elect a

    guy
    > or some guys who quietly take care of it.


    Yes, and when homeowners get to vote on whether they will raise their
    dues to take care of worn-out trails, they always say NO.
     
  12. That is gross mismanagement of the HOA.

    There should have been a "sinking" or reserve fund built up over the
    years to provide for the capital to keep things up. At least, that is
    what we have with our HOA>
     
  13. "Colorado Bicycler" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > That is gross mismanagement of the HOA.
    >
    > There should have been a "sinking" or reserve fund built up over the
    > years to provide for the capital to keep things up. At least, that is
    > what we have with our HOA>
    >


    HOAs are controlled not by boards but by the homeowners who simply refuse
    dues increases to maintain trails or anything else. It is a long-term
    problem. We even have a revolt over a management company which is working
    for half-price. Radials say everyone should volunteer including voluntary
    mowing. Board members refuse to raise money to pay for projects like
    maintenance because they themselves would have to pay about $10 a month more
    and they refuse.
     
  14. Don't you love HOA's!

    Our town is responsible for the main bicycle trail system, which is
    most of the trails, and is meticulously kept up. It is swept
    regularly, plowed shortly after every snowstorm, mowed edges regularly,
    etc.


    >From what I can tell, the trails inside the HOA's responsibility are

    also kept in great condition. I've never found a bad one, and we
    certainly have a plentitude of HOA's.
     
  15. Pat

    Pat Guest

    Okay guys, here's a scary thought for you. As I have said, I work in
    developing apartments and most of my work is in rural or semi-rural
    areas. I use public funding for most of the development. As part of
    the application process, the state has a scoring system.

    In NY, you get more point if you include 1 of 2 amenities: central
    airconditioning or internet access. No points for workout rooms or
    trails. So guess what we include in our buildings? On the good side,
    there is a requirement for a playground for tots and a separate area
    for pre-teens. But once you are older than that, I guess the state
    thinks it's okay to sit in your air conditioned room and surf the web.

    If you were to propose a public walking trail, it would create
    feasibility issues with their underwriting unit and you'd have trouble
    getting funded.

    I think the reason for this is that the policy people tend to live in
    NYC and the Albany area. So it's not an issue for them.
     
  16. "Pat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Okay guys, here's a scary thought for you. As I have said, I work in
    > developing apartments and most of my work is in rural or semi-rural
    > areas. I use public funding for most of the development. As part of
    > the application process, the state has a scoring system.
    >
    > In NY, you get more point if you include 1 of 2 amenities: central
    > airconditioning or internet access. No points for workout rooms or
    > trails. So guess what we include in our buildings? On the good side,
    > there is a requirement for a playground for tots and a separate area
    > for pre-teens. But once you are older than that, I guess the state
    > thinks it's okay to sit in your air conditioned room and surf the web.
    >
    > If you were to propose a public walking trail, it would create
    > feasibility issues with their underwriting unit and you'd have trouble
    > getting funded.
    >
    > I think the reason for this is that the policy people tend to live in
    > NYC and the Albany area. So it's not an issue for them.
    >


    In seriously urban areas, trails represent a safety hazard. When Hillary
    and Bill got a house a few years back, the Secret Service said it was ok
    except for the added danger of a trail. They still got the house I believe,
    but at least the increased risk of a trail behind your house was properly
    mentioned in the press.
     
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