DF Respect Earned :)

Discussion in 'Recumbent bicycles' started by Gerald Muffolet, Mar 11, 2003.

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  1. Last Saturday, I rode with the club of an easy 1200 feet of climb for a 50 mile preparation ride. I
    am preparing for my second century of the year. At the 15 mile mark, a normally fast rider told me
    that if I keep riding like I have been, I would have to ride with Ralph. Now Ralph is a very good
    and fast rider who enjoys going fast uphill and slow down hill.

    I also heard the question "Why are you going so fast?" directed to the President of the Baton
    Rouge Bike Club. His answer was "I have to keep up with Muf". My nickname is Muf because most
    people cannot say Muffoletto while riding hard. We were only going 17 M.P.H. :) into the wind on
    the flats and 20-23 M.P.H. down wind. I was pushing because for years the faster club members
    would push and drop me after 10 miles. What a great feeling giving them a taste of their own
    speed. Some riders were asking what kind of gears I had. I told them "What ever comes with the
    bike. Maybe you know." :)

    I rode parallel to the President of the club for the 50 miles ride to show them that I could; they
    were in a pace line. I slowed down about mile 45 to talk with some of the riders in the pace line
    just to test their conditioning. When we finally got to our cars, I had averaged
    17. M.P.H. for the 50 miles. The other riders were a bit tired. We must have averaged 16 M.P.H. for
    the last 10 miles.

    Normally I ride 14 M.P.H. for 50 miles on my 1999 Vision R44. The money that I spent on my Aero and
    the Angletech tailbox was worth every penny!
     
    Tags:


  2. Derek

    Derek Guest

    Gerald,

    Cool report. Sounds like the group was treating you pretty well. I might suggest that in the future,
    you merely drop to the back of the paceline and stay out of rotations that way instead of riding
    parallel to the group. It's safer for everyone, including you.

    Don't be ashamed to benefit from the draft of the paceline. If the group is really working well, you
    can offer to go to the front and pull for a while, but most riders of uprights will wish not to deal
    with a bent anywhere but at the back of the line. Of course, if you are asked to, then take a pull,
    but that is not likely to happen. If the group fractures up, then move up to the front pod and be
    the caboose. After shamlessly sucking wheels for hours, it is a good idea to help out with flat
    tires or bailouts, or any way you can think of to show your appreciation to the group.

    Cheers, Derek

    "Gerald Muffoletto Louisiana" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Last Saturday, I rode with the club of an easy 1200 feet of climb for a 50 mile preparation ride.
    > I am preparing for my second century of the year. At the 15 mile mark, a normally fast rider told
    > me that if I keep riding like I have been, I would have to ride with Ralph. Now Ralph is a very
    > good and fast rider who enjoys going fast uphill and slow down hill.
    >
    > I also heard the question "Why are you going so fast?" directed to the President of the Baton
    > Rouge Bike Club. His answer was "I have to keep up with Muf". My nickname is Muf because most
    > people cannot say Muffoletto while riding hard. We were only going 17 M.P.H. :) into the wind on
    > the flats and 20-23 M.P.H. down wind. I was pushing because for years the faster club members
    > would push and drop me after 10 miles. What a great feeling giving them a taste of their own
    > speed. Some riders were asking what kind of gears I had. I told them "What ever comes with the
    > bike. Maybe you know." :)
    >
    > I rode parallel to the President of the club for the 50 miles ride to show them that I could; they
    > were in a pace line. I slowed down about mile 45 to talk with some of the riders in the pace line
    > just to test their conditioning. When we finally got to our cars, I had averaged
    > 17. M.P.H. for the 50 miles. The other riders were a bit tired. We must have averaged 16 M.P.H.
    > for the last 10 miles.
    >
    > Normally I ride 14 M.P.H. for 50 miles on my 1999 Vision R44. The money that I spent on my Aero
    > and the Angletech tailbox was worth every penny!
     
  3. John Foltz

    John Foltz Guest

    First, congrats on a great ride, Gerald. What were you riding? (and don't say, "a recumbent!")

    derek wrote:
    >
    > Cool report. Sounds like the group was treating you pretty well. I might suggest that in the
    > future, you merely drop to the back of the paceline and stay out of rotations that way instead of
    > riding parallel to the group. It's safer for everyone, including you.
    >
    Whether or not to just ride in back depends on the bike. I know that they don't mind riding behind
    my faired V-Rex. In fact, several DF riders in my club prefer it! I guess they've learned that the
    draft behind the fairing is pretty darned good, even if it's a bit on the short side. For lower
    bikes, though, Derek is right. With the Baron I only go to the front to tease the lead tandems. When
    at the back, I tend to allow extra room, for two reasons. 1) more buffer for when they encounter a
    climb and slough off speed faster than I do, and 2) I can honestly claim I'm not benefitting from
    sucking their wheels.

    You (Gerald) definitely shouldn't make a practice of riding alongside the leaders if they're already
    two abreast. If you're fast, they may respect your speed, but keeping up is only part of the
    equation. They respect you more if you also follow a few rules. Ride a straight line, maintain
    constant speed, keep in formation, always signal everything.
    --

    John Foltz --- O _ Baron --- _O _ V-Rex 24/63 --- _\\/\-%)
    _________(_)`=()___________________(_)= (_)_____
     
  4. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > First, congrats on a great ride, Gerald. What were you riding? (and don't say, "a recumbent!")
    If you read the fine print: "...The money that I spent on my Aero and the Angletech tailbox was
    worth every penny!"

    > Whether or not to just ride in back depends on the bike.

    Actually, the best place is in front. The paceline gets some aero benefit. (This may not be the case
    with a tailbox). The DF leaders behind you can peel off as needed. If you get tired or are slowed by
    a hill, you can peel off too.

    I've pulled my share when with a pace line. The only problems I encounter are downhills. I have to
    coast and usually faster than the paceline is moving. This means I need to pull out of the line if I
    am anywhere off the front. (BTW, it is considered bad form to coast past the pace leader.)
    >
    > You (Gerald) definitely shouldn't make a practice of riding alongside the leaders if they're
    > already two abreast

    I think 'Muf' has established a good rapport with the paceline members Sounds like he is following
    the rules as they apply to recumbents in his paceline.

    The only problems I have with pacelines are in 'events' where the pacelines are made up on the fly
    with folks that usually don't know what they are doing.
    --
    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  5. Al Kubeluis

    Al Kubeluis Guest

    Derek, What you say below has been my experience with DF pacelines also. Most don't mind a recumbent
    riding last position and dropping back for rotation tail to tuck in. But usually they don't want
    recumbent inside paceline, I think for good reasons: (1) they don't know you or your skills,
    (2) they may not get much of a draft from you, (3) they may be practicing team work. You might ask
    if they would like you to help pull. Definitely don't ride parallel to paceline as this
    interferes with their rotation. If paceline is too slow for you, just pass them and go on your
    way. Often this will energize them to catch and destroy you. Most DF paceline riders become
    friendly after a pass-repass exchange, as respect is gained. Pacelines on hills are particularly
    tricky if you mix bikes with significantly different aerodynamics and speed characteristics. DFs
    and bents are not a good mix on hilly pacelines. DFs have told me they get a good draft off my
    Corsa, which is 26x26 and high for a bent. Nevertheless, since my Corsa is much faster downhill
    than a DF, I shy away from DF pacelines on steep hills. Previous to Corsa I had a V2. I did not
    find a lwb bent as good in a bent or DF paceline. On lwb bent, front wheel keeps you farther
    away from rider ahead and, more importantly, when looking at back of rider, gauging location of
    front wheel is harder. ~~~al.kubeluis..md.usa.earth.sun.milkyway.virgo.universe..corsa~~~

    "derek" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Gerald,
    >
    > Cool report. Sounds like the group was treating you pretty well. I might suggest that in the
    > future, you merely drop to the back of the paceline
    and
    > stay out of rotations that way instead of riding parallel to the group.
    It's
    > safer for everyone, including you.
    >
    > Don't be ashamed to benefit from the draft of the paceline. If the group
    is
    > really working well, you can offer to go to the front and pull for a
    while,
    > but most riders of uprights will wish not to deal with a bent anywhere but at the back of the
    > line. Of course, if you are asked to, then take a pull, but that is not likely to happen. If the
    > group fractures up, then move up to the front pod and be the caboose. After shamlessly sucking
    > wheels for hours, it is a good idea to help out with flat tires or bailouts, or any
    way
    > you can think of to show your appreciation to the group.
    >
    > Cheers, Derek
    >
    >
    > "Gerald Muffoletto Louisiana" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Last Saturday, I rode with the club of an easy 1200 feet of climb for a 50 mile preparation
    > > ride. I am preparing for my second century of the year. At the 15 mile mark, a normally fast
    > > rider told me that if I keep riding like I have been, I would have to ride with Ralph. Now Ralph
    > > is a very good and fast rider who enjoys going fast uphill and slow down hill.
    > >
    > > I also heard the question "Why are you going so fast?" directed to the President of the Baton
    > > Rouge Bike Club. His answer was "I have to keep up with Muf". My nickname is Muf because most
    > > people cannot say Muffoletto while riding hard. We were only going 17 M.P.H. :) into the wind on
    > > the flats and 20-23 M.P.H. down wind. I was pushing because for years the faster club members
    > > would push and drop me after 10 miles. What a great feeling giving them a taste of their own
    > > speed. Some riders were asking what kind of gears I had. I told them "What ever comes with the
    > > bike. Maybe you know." :)
    > >
    > > I rode parallel to the President of the club for the 50 miles ride to show them that I could;
    > > they were in a pace line. I slowed down about mile 45 to talk with some of the riders in the
    > > pace line just to test their conditioning. When we finally got to our cars, I had averaged
    > > 17. M.P.H. for the 50 miles. The other riders were a bit tired. We must have averaged 16 M.P.H.
    > > for the last 10 miles.
    > >
    > > Normally I ride 14 M.P.H. for 50 miles on my 1999 Vision R44. The money that I spent on my Aero
    > > and the Angletech tailbox was worth every penny!
     
  6. John Foltz

    John Foltz Guest

    Cletus D. Lee <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > > First, congrats on a great ride, Gerald. What were you riding? (and don't say, "a recumbent!")
    > If you read the fine print: "...The money that I spent on my Aero and the Angletech tailbox was
    > worth every penny!"
    >
    As Popeye might say, "how embarraskin!" I reread that post several times trying to find where Gerald
    might have made a reference; missed it every time. I can only guess that my mind dismissed it as
    part of the sig file. Yes, it sounds like he's established himself in the group, so I don't think he
    was doing anything bone-headed to make the others uncomfortable. It never hurts to go over the
    rules, though, since he admits he knows them but couldn't keep up with them before. The implication
    being that he hasn't done much pacelining with them, beyond the warmup. An Aero with a tail bag
    would not be a good draft, but it would be enough to justify him taking his turn along with
    everybody else. They could rotate the rider behind him, (like you said) since that person would only
    be getting a half a draft.
     
  7. In article <[email protected]>, "Al says...
    >
    >Derek, What you say below has been my experience with DF pacelines also.

    > Most don't mind a recumbent riding last position and dropping back for rotation tail to tuck
    > in. But usually they don't want recumbent inside paceline, I think for good reasons: (1) they
    > don't know you or your skills,
    >(2) they may not get much of a draft from you, (3) they may be practicing team work. You might ask
    > if they would like you to help pull.

    My experience with pacelines in club rides has been that I may as well start off at the back,
    because if I get in the middle, one by one everyone speeds up to pass me. At lteast this allows me
    do enjoy drafting all day without feeling guilty.

    The view doesn't seem to change much though.....

    Steve Christensen Midland, MI
     
  8. John Foltz <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    > You (Gerald) definitely shouldn't make a practice of riding alongside the leaders if they're
    > already two abreast. If you're fast, they may respect your speed, but keeping up is only part of
    > the equation. They respect you more if you also follow a few rules. Ride a straight line, maintain
    > constant speed, keep in formation, always signal everything.

    SUBJECT: DF Respect Earned Last Saturday, I rode with the club of an easy 1200 feet of climb for a
    50 mile preparation ride. I am preparing for my second century of the year. At the 15 mile mark, a
    normally fast rider told me that if I keep riding like I have been, I would have to ride with Ralph.
    Now Ralph is a very good and fast rider who enjoys going fast uphill and slow down hill.

    I also heard the question "Why are you going so fast?" directed to the President of the Baton
    Rouge Bike Club. His answer was "I have to keep up with Muf". My nickname is Muf because most
    people cannot say Muffoletto while riding hard. We were only going 17 M.P.H. :) into the wind on
    the flats and 20-23 M.P.H. down wind. I was pushing because for years the faster club members
    would push and drop me after 10 miles. What a great feeling giving them a taste of their own
    speed. Some riders were asking what kind of gears I had. I told them "What ever comes with the
    bike. Maybe you know." :)

    I rode parallel to the President of the club for the 50 miles ride to show them that I could; they
    were in a pace line. I slowed down about mile 45 to talk with some of the riders in the pace line
    just to test their conditioning. When we finally got to our cars, I had averaged
    17. M.P.H. for the 50 miles. The other riders were a bit tired. We must have averaged 16 M.P.H. for
    the last 10 miles.

    Normally I ride 14 M.P.H. for 50 miles on my 1999 Vision R44. The money that I spent on my Aero and
    the Angletech tailbox was worth every penny!

    response: When I was 40, I could not see why anyone would want to ride 100 miles on a DF. As I
    got stronger, I finally rode my first century. I improved to the point of riding with several
    century riders.

    At 50, I rode pacelines with the slow riders on my Trek DF. Our group trained for the "Hotter Than
    Hell" in Texas. At that time, I could keep an 18 M.P.H. in the pace line for 30 miles after months
    of training. Now that was work!

    To have more fun and ride without all the pain of a DF, I bought a Vision R44. At first, I was slow.
    After 2000 miles I was still slow
    (18.8 M.P.H. average for a century). I always rode alone because other slow riders would not ride
    centuries. When I did ride with the slow group, they would drop me after 20 miles - not in a
    pace line but in a group. I guess they wanted to get off the bikes due to the pain and
    hunger. I kept telling them that I am out for the pleasure of riding and not speed. If I were
    out for speed, I would get a fast recumbent. They just gave me the "sure their is a fast
    recumbent" face.

    I decided that maybe they were correct. My Recumbent is slow no matter what I did. Being an
    engineer, I gathered facts. The first fact was that a bike that weighs 30 lbs. cannot go as fast as
    a 20 lbs. bike. Since we ride hills, I needed a light bike. The second fact was wind resistance is
    less on a recumbent than a DF but I spend more time going uphill than down. On faith that MR. Pinto
    would bring his Aerocycle knowledge to the Aero, I bought the Aero.

    I have ridden 7 centuries on the Aero since November but alone. I pass by the club riders and wave.
    Sometimes I stop and talk if I have enough sun light left to get back to my car before dark. During
    my dormant period (Jan.-March, temp hotter than 89, rain), I ride with the club. The club members
    say that they have had a "Muf sighting" when I pass them going the other way. Now that I am riding
    with the club, I wanted to try and get more people riding recumbents and possibly centuries where I
    could keep the pace. If no one gets an Aero, I think that I will be doing a lot of parallel riding.

    Usually when the club starts a ride, no one can make up their minds to start riding and so, I start.
    I ride back to the group after a group forms. The others see me start and realize that they are
    late. I used to ride along side of the inexperienced riders, trying to help them with hills and
    spinning. We only had experienced riders. But with my Aero, I caught the leader of the club, he was
    in front, and no pace line had formed. I got up to 16, and asked questions about the war, his wife,
    ... Before I knew it, I was going 20, the leader was going 20, and a single pace line had formed
    behind the leader. That was when someone ask why he was going so fast. When someone would try and
    use my draft, they just could not seem to get any benefit. They would fall back to the paceline.
    When a car comes from behind, I would pass the leader so that he could hold a steady pace and the
    car would pass. I would then drop back to the parallel position and keep talking. Cars have this
    habit of passing when I am in the middle of a thought.

    The above explains why I rode in parallel with the leader.
     
  9. Me

    Me Guest

    > My experience with pacelines in club rides has been that I may as well start off at the back,
    > because if I get in the middle, one by one everyone speeds up to pass me. At lteast this allows me
    > do enjoy drafting all day without feeling guilty.
    >
    > The view doesn't seem to change much though.....
    >
    > Steve Christensen Midland, MI

    I had my first experience with mixing my faired Stratus into a DF pacline this past Sunday. I've
    only been riding bents since December, so all this is pretty new to me.

    What you say is true, I just fell into a postion in the group and one by one I was passed, even by
    the slower rider. Kind of funny, they kept me pinned in so I couldn't get around, it seemed almost
    planned. Then we got into the small rollers, much smaller than what I am used to riding, and I
    passed the majority of the slow group that had been dropped by the faster riders. I easily caught up
    with the faster guys and initially they seemed like they were blocking me again. But then I saw my
    opening and pushed through the group of 5 and beat them all to the top. They called for a rest and
    regroup and one fellow said to me, "I was always told those bikes were slow on hills" and that I was
    pretty tough. All I could say was "what hills?", because on my home turf I get passed all the time
    on my DF or bent. They were just a bunch of flatlanders, what satisfaction is there in beating them
    over little bumps :)

    A while later I led the paceline into the the headwind and was again complemented. If they tried to
    get around me, they couldn't and they were right on my tail. After that, I was invited to come back
    and ride with that group anytime.

    With my regular club, which doesn't usually do pacelines, I have twice had the smaller riders tuck
    in close behind me and claim to get a lot of benefit from me with my fairing. Last time out with
    them the guy behind me said our trip on that particular stretch was a personal best for him.

    but I admit if I am not first or last, I am uncomfortable. in addition to not being able to see the
    front wheel, I also can't hold as true a line on the bent as I can on the DF. With only 600 miles I
    am getting better. I have ordered the Evo Bars for the bike, hoping that will help, but I just can't
    keep it straight.

    MikeE
     
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