Did I make a Big Training Mistake?

[JTE83]

So far this year I have biked 1148 miles. I used a Polar S720i HRM to monitor my workout statistics. Well, all of my workouts so far have mostly been in the 80% to 90% MHR range. I did not ever bike in the aerobic range 70% to 80% MHR (except when accelerating or biking slowly in city streets). Was that my big mistake? My average speed per heart rate did not increase very much. Or do I need more training and is training at 80% to 90% MHR ok? Will it be better to train at 70% to 80% MHR so that average speed per HR will increase? So training at 80% to 90% MHR does not build an aerobic base / average speed per HR will not increase?

Has anyone out there successfully trained at 70% to 80% MHR? What about 80% to 90% MHR? By “successful training” I mean that your avg speed per heart rate level has increased. Or should I do 60% to 70% MHR training?

Effects of my anaerobic threshold training – I lost 20 lbs in 12 weeks. My max speed went up from 27.9 mph to 29.2 mph. I did not feel fatigued or leg sore and I rested at least 1 day after a long ride.

I have only been biking for 1 year by now. I was previously obese at 200 lbs, 5’ 3.5” – I now weigh 171.4 lbs (21.5% Fat).

 

[snafu]

So far this year I have biked 1148 miles. I used a Polar S720i HRM to monitor my workout statistics. Well, all of my workouts so far have mostly been in the 80% to 90% MHR range. I did not ever bike in the aerobic range 70% to 80% MHR (except when accelerating or biking slowly in city streets). Was that my big mistake? My average speed per heart rate did not increase very much. Or do I need more training and is training at 80% to 90% MHR ok? Will it be better to train at 70% to 80% MHR so that average speed per HR will increase? So training at 80% to 90% MHR does not build an aerobic base / average speed per HR will not increase?

Has anyone out there successfully trained at 70% to 80% MHR? What about 80% to 90% MHR? By “successful training” I mean that your avg speed per heart rate level has increased. Or should I do 60% to 70% MHR training?

Effects of my anaerobic threshold training – I lost 20 lbs in 12 weeks. My max speed went up from 27.9 mph to 29.2 mph. I did not feel fatigued or leg sore and I rested at least 1 day after a long ride.

I have only been biking for 1 year by now. I was previously obese at 200 lbs, 5’ 3.5” – I now weigh 171.4 lbs (21.5% Fat).

I would buy a book on training. I've read "The Lance Armstrong Performance Program: Seven Weeks to the Perfect Ride" by Chris Carmichael and I'm currently reading "The Cyclist's Training Bible" by Joe Friel. The training bible is much more indepth and is geared toward peaking for racing, but will answer any questions you may have.

The 'Performance Program is a nice starter book...

 

[dhk]

So far this year I have biked 1148 miles. I used a Polar S720i HRM to monitor my workout statistics. Well, all of my workouts so far have mostly been in the 80% to 90% MHR range. I did not ever bike in the aerobic range 70% to 80% MHR (except when accelerating or biking slowly in city streets). Was that my big mistake? My average speed per heart rate did not increase very much. Or do I need more training and is training at 80% to 90% MHR ok? Will it be better to train at 70% to 80% MHR so that average speed per HR will increase? So training at 80% to 90% MHR does not build an aerobic base / average speed per HR will not increase?

Has anyone out there successfully trained at 70% to 80% MHR? What about 80% to 90% MHR? By “successful training” I mean that your avg speed per heart rate level has increased. Or should I do 60% to 70% MHR training?

Effects of my anaerobic threshold training – I lost 20 lbs in 12 weeks. My max speed went up from 27.9 mph to 29.2 mph. I did not feel fatigued or leg sore and I rested at least 1 day after a long ride.

I have only been biking for 1 year by now. I was previously obese at 200 lbs, 5’ 3.5” – I now weigh 171.4 lbs (21.5% Fat).

Did you establish your actual Max HR from a road or lab test? 80-90% of your real max would be very intense training for every session...the pro's don't go that hard!

 

[JTE83]

Did you establish your actual Max HR from a road or lab test? 80-90% of your real max would be very intense training for every session...the pro's don't go that hard!

At the beginning of the season, around February -- when I was "unfit" -- I went for a Maxed out speed sprint and held it. This established my Max Heart Rate which was higher than what my Polar S720i predicted. 183 MHR...

I guess I got into the habit of training at 85% to 90% MHR because early on I was unfit -- and maybe that HR gave me a good "speed."

Oh, today I went for a totally different ride -- I biked mostly 75% to 80% MHR. At 79.78% MHR I was going mostly between 15.6 to 17.1 mph. But it seems that my ride didn't result in much of a weight loss (I'll know by tomorrow).

What I do after each ride is analyze my calories per mile burn rate. I started the season burning 61.22 cal / mi (feb 19). After training my cal / mi dropped to 44.54 cal / mi -- so we get more efficient after training !!

Funny, when I did 1148 miles at 85 - 90% MHR it didn't feel so hard to me. I didn't feel fatigued and I lost considerable weight after a 30 to 52 mile ride. The next few rides I'll do aerobic, and if I don't lose weight I'll post it -- and I might switch back to mostly 86% MHR rides.

 

[JTE83]

I would buy a book on training. I've read "The Lance Armstrong Performance Program: Seven Weeks to the Perfect Ride" by Chris Carmichael and I'm currently reading "The Cyclist's Training Bible" by Joe Friel. The training bible is much more indepth and is geared toward peaking for racing, but will answer any questions you may have.

The 'Performance Program is a nice starter book...

I have Joe Friel's "The Cyclist's Training Bible," Kendra & Rene Wenzel's "Bike Racing 101" book, and Sally Edward's HRM book. I read Friel early in the season and I read the last two just this past month.

Joe Friel talks about intensity but he doesn't mention what heart rate to train in. He said we need a solid base foundation of easy miles -- I guess at 70% to 80% MHR ? I can't imagine going at 60% to 70% MHR -- I guess I'd be too slow. Anyway, when I trained for 1148 miles I mostly aimed for a 86 - 87% MHR ride -- and this type of ride burned a lot of Fat !! 20lbs in 12 weeks.

I don't know if 70% to 80% MHR rides will burn a lot of Fat. I just did a 70% to 80% MHR ride today and I averaged 35.89 calories/mi. When I did a previous 86% MHR ride is was burning 45 calories / mi.

I realised that I might have made a big training mistake when I read a section of Kendra & Rene Wenzel's "Bike Racing 101" book -- page 67 --> Endurance Training at 70% to 80% MHR. They mentioned a pro racer named Fred Rodriguez who started out endurance paced training 1 hr each day. He then added 20min per day each week until he was doing 6hr per day training rides. End result ? He could do 25 mph without even hitting 80% MHR.

see http://www.fredrodriguez.com/biography.html

So it seems that endurance paced rides build you up for speed, while 80 - 90% MHR ride won't (?) <- My experience ! And they said, "Train slow to go fast."

Does any have an endurance paced training experience that they have documented ? Did avg speed per Heart rate increase ?

I admit I took a second look at my training books after 1148 miles.

 

[Stanners77]

I am currently doing the Intermediate 7 week program from the aforementioned 'Lance Armstrong Performance Program' book. Too early to tell if the 70-80% work is improving my riding but the training (and a combination of eater smarter) resulted in my losing 3kg at the end of the first two weeks. I certainly feel stronger and more efficient thus far.

I can say that I went through a phase of belting out rides of between 50km and 85km, 5-6 times a week @ 80%+ HR and my speed/HR DID NOT IMPROVE one iota! From a biological point of view, it takes TIME to build up your mitochondria mass and capilliarisation to make your body carry oxygen more effectively. If your HR is too high, you're getting close to your threshold and that's a different type of training entirely.

I like the 'train slow to go fast' line that someone else mentioned. My conclusion is that there's more gains to be made in the long run from clocking up lots of steady hours/kms and focussing on good pedaling technique and body position.

Also, consider that most elite endurance athletes for sports like cycling, rowing and swimming would spend about 80% of their total general preparation training time@ 65-82% of MaxHR. Naturally, this would change to less volume and higher intenisty near major competitions.

Congrats on your weight loss!

 

[sambo76]

I too am currently using the 'Lance Armstrong Performance Program' book. I gave up riding about 8-10years ago due to work commitments. I am currently using the begginer program as I have only been riding for about 3 weeks now(1 week using the book).

Before starting the program I was averaging 25-26kmhr (16-17mph) for an average HR of 150+ (Polar s720i). Since using the program my average speeds are the same yet my average HR is between 127-132bpm. I too am trying to lose some weight aswell and am succeeding by using this program and sensible eating I am losing 1kg per week (1-2lbs).

My advice would be forget average speeds and concentrate on HR zones and your speed will come soon after.

Cheers from down under

 

[Stanners77]

Sambo,

Are you from Melb originally?

 

[JTE83]

I apologize to everyone! Today I did a careful analysis of my Polar Training records. The beauty of training with an S720i is that it records a lot of your statistics. Well, I looked at my training days on data for bike laps that were done in no wind conditions. I biked the same bike path (a 7 mile nonstop stretch of Chicago’s Lakefront) for all laps recorded.

Here is the data –

My Max heart rate is 183

avg lap mph HR avg % MHR Date
16.4 158 86.34% 19-May – 187 lbs
17.5 160 87.43% 5-Jun
16.3 156 85.20% 5-Jun
15.9 152 83.06% 5-Jun
16.8 156 85.20% 18-Jun – 181.8 lbs
16.7 152 83.06% 18-Jun
17.4 157 85.79% 29-Jun
16.9 154 84.15% 29-Jun
18 158 86.34% 19-Jul
16.5 144 78.68% 6-Aug – 171.8 lbs

On August 6th I went for a 70% to 80% MHR ride for the first time. All previous rides aimed for a HR of around 86 – 87% MHR.

So the data suggests that my avg speed per heart rate has increased with anaerobic training !! <- I thought that was my big mistake. Or, for a given average speed, my heart rate has decreased!

Sorry for the previous statements; I took a bike ride and my HR was kind of high for the speed I was going. I must have been overtraining or experiencing heart rate drift. So I went into a mistaken analysis that training at 80% to 90% MHR doesn’t increase your avg speed per heart rate.

Anyway, after my first 70% to 80% MHR ride, I noticed that I only lost 1 lb of fat. Some data on my weight loss and rides --

MHR avg cal mi cal / mi Wt Loss
5-Jun 85% 2490 51.8 46.9 1.6 lbs
12-Jun 83% 1840 38 48.42 2.6 lbs
28-Jul 87% 2040 41.4 46.41148325 2.2 lbs
6-Aug 78% 1707 45.4 35.89641434 1.0 lbs

It seems like training at 86 to 87% target HR is better at losing weight than a 78% MHR ride. Also, it seems that I just have to put in more training miles to increase my avg speed per heart rate – and doing it at 87% MHR is ok! But I’ll ride my next few rides at 79% MHR to see what it does for me.

 

[sambo76]

Stanners,

No always been a sydney boy, melb is way to cold for my liking.....

 

[dhk]

I apologize to everyone! Today I did a careful analysis of my Polar Training records. The beauty of training with an S720i is that it records a lot of your statistics. Well, I looked at my training days on data for bike laps that were done in no wind conditions. I biked the same bike path (a 7 mile nonstop stretch of Chicago’s Lakefront) for all laps recorded.

Here is the data –

My Max heart rate is 183

avg lap mph HR avg % MHR Date
16.4 158 86.34% 19-May – 187 lbs
17.5 160 87.43% 5-Jun
16.3 156 85.20% 5-Jun
15.9 152 83.06% 5-Jun
16.8 156 85.20% 18-Jun – 181.8 lbs
16.7 152 83.06% 18-Jun
17.4 157 85.79% 29-Jun
16.9 154 84.15% 29-Jun
18 158 86.34% 19-Jul
16.5 144 78.68% 6-Aug – 171.8 lbs

On August 6th I went for a 70% to 80% MHR ride for the first time. All previous rides aimed for a HR of around 86 – 87% MHR.

So the data suggests that my avg speed per heart rate has increased with anaerobic training !! <- I thought that was my big mistake. Or, for a given average speed, my heart rate has decreased!

Sorry for the previous statements; I took a bike ride and my HR was kind of high for the speed I was going. I must have been overtraining or experiencing heart rate drift. So I went into a mistaken analysis that training at 80% to 90% MHR doesn’t increase your avg speed per heart rate.

Anyway, after my first 70% to 80% MHR ride, I noticed that I only lost 1 lb of fat. Some data on my weight loss and rides --

MHR avg cal mi cal / mi Wt Loss
5-Jun 85% 2490 51.8 46.9 1.6 lbs
12-Jun 83% 1840 38 48.42 2.6 lbs
28-Jul 87% 2040 41.4 46.41148325 2.2 lbs
6-Aug 78% 1707 45.4 35.89641434 1.0 lbs

It seems like training at 86 to 87% target HR is better at losing weight than a 78% MHR ride. Also, it seems that I just have to put in more training miles to increase my avg speed per heart rate – and doing it at 87% MHR is ok! But I’ll ride my next few rides at 79% MHR to see what it does for me.

JTE83: Believe you're collecting too much data and trying to over-quantify and over-analyze your results. If you're expecting improvements from one session to the next, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed....adaptation to training is a long term process.

Even on the same flat lakefront course, you can't compare speeds precisely from one day to the next due to weather conditions.. slight winds, temp and air density all cause variations in power required to maintain a given speed.

In addition, high temperature and humidity and sun will push your HR easily 5-10 bpm at a given power output, because your body needs to divert more blood for cooling. Same for other metabolic factors...your general stress state, sleep and eating will cause variation as well.

Your daily weight loss after a ride is more a function of dehydration than anything else. Especially in the heat, try to drink enough water during the ride so you only lose a pound or two afterwards.

Believe you're training too hard, but not often enough and not enough miles. Particularly for weight loss, you'll burn more total calories if you put in a lot more miles. To do this without injury, you'll need to slow down to an aerobic type pace of 70% or so. Suggest you ride 4-5 times a week if possible, and build up gradually to maybe 100 miles a week.

Just my thoughts here....you can obviously train as you like.

 

[Stanners77]

Very good thoughts DHK.

It's nice to have swags of daily data but you're right, there's way too many variables to draw any firm conclusions.

Monitoring weight loss from start to end of a session, as you said, just fluid loss related - but not a bad idea. If you're losing more than 1kg in a session, you need to drink more.

In terms of monitoring improvement, a regular common test is better than comparing daily changes for the reasons DHK mentioned. I would think anything more frequent than a month is too short, esp if you train using a 4 week periodised macro which I really love, i.e. week 1 = medium, week 2 = hard, week 3 = very hard, week 4 = light (test at end of the week). Then there's the psychology of working towards test and getting hungry for it!

I usually do a 5k (3 mile) 'time trial' every month or so. Flat course (actually the F1 GP track in Albert Park, Melbourne). You could go longer but that would probably increase the number of variables! I use the same bike, same gear, test at the same time of day (therefore same approx temp), same warmup and always do it in neutral wind/conditions.
Just my thoughts...

 

[dhk]

Very good thoughts DHK.

It's nice to have swags of daily data but you're right, there's way too many variables to draw any firm conclusions.

Monitoring weight loss from start to end of a session, as you said, just fluid loss related - but not a bad idea. If you're losing more than 1kg in a session, you need to drink more.

In terms of monitoring improvement, a regular common test is better than comparing daily changes for the reasons DHK mentioned. I would think anything more frequent than a month is too short, esp if you train using a 4 week periodised macro which I really love, i.e. week 1 = medium, week 2 = hard, week 3 = very hard, week 4 = light (test at end of the week). Then there's the psychology of working towards test and getting hungry for it!

I usually do a 5k (3 mile) 'time trial' every month or so. Flat course (actually the F1 GP track in Albert Park, Melbourne). You could go longer but that would probably increase the number of variables! I use the same bike, same gear, test at the same time of day (therefore same approx temp), same warmup and always do it in neutral wind/conditions.
Just my thoughts...

Good points you make as well. Agree once a month is plenty for a TT test. Of course, if you're racing or doing timed Century events, those would be your yardstick and you wouldn't need to go out for a solo test.

Think I'll try out your periodised training method also. I've been riding since January this season; at about 3200 miles now which is about three times my previous mileage. At this point in the late summer, I'm finding it's easy to get into overtraining.

Did about 650 miles in July, mostly in hot and humid conditions here. After feeling the symptoms of overtraining, took an easy week this week, just short one hour recovery rides. As a result, felt relaxed and strong on the club ride yesterday. Seems that a week of recovery every month is much better than just expecting to recover by taking a day or two off.

Can you explain about your weekly variations? When you say a "hard" week, does that mean every ride that week is hard? Do you monitor your total weekly time above LT, or use some other gauge of effort?

Understand about looking forward to the hard efforts....that's your reward for following a disciplined training intensity. Tells me you've probably got your training program dialed in right.

 

[drybone]

JTE83: Believe you're collecting too much data and trying to over-quantify and over-analyze your results. If you're expecting improvements from one session to the next, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed....adaptation to training is a long term process.

Even on the same flat lakefront course, you can't compare speeds precisely from one day to the next due to weather conditions.. slight winds, temp and air density all cause variations in power required to maintain a given speed.

In addition, high temperature and humidity and sun will push your HR easily 5-10 bpm at a given power output, because your body needs to divert more blood for cooling. Same for other metabolic factors...your general stress state, sleep and eating will cause variation as well.

Your daily weight loss after a ride is more a function of dehydration than anything else. Especially in the heat, try to drink enough water during the ride so you only lose a pound or two afterwards.

Believe you're training too hard, but not often enough and not enough miles. Particularly for weight loss, you'll burn more total calories if you put in a lot more miles. To do this without injury, you'll need to slow down to an aerobic type pace of 70% or so. Suggest you ride 4-5 times a week if possible, and build up gradually to maybe 100 miles a week.

Just my thoughts here....you can obviously train as you like.

I agree with dhk and you had a lot keen observations as well. Your observations become more and more diluted as you over analyse the data. We're all gulily of this at times. I did the same thing when I started out. Especially with my science backgroud, I loved the stats.
-Be realistic in your initial expectations
-As was previously mentioned, adaptation is a long process.
You mentioned the advice to "train slow." This is the best advice you can heed. To burn calories, which seems like you biggest issue, you need to be in your appropriate HRZ which, of course differs from individual to individual. But for everyone that's somewhere above 70%. Go too high and you'll burn more kcals but not the kcals you want to utilize to burn fat. For fat burning, stick to aerobic zones. You may not be happy with your pace (speed) but the long-term benefits of weight loss and overall endurance will superceed you expectations.
You're probably aware of this
- weather conditions (heat, humidity, wind, cold, etc), hydration, time of day, nutrition for that day, stress, daily training (too much, too little) and more play a factor in your HR. Approx HR-bpm increase = 8-12.
-
We can probably discuss this forever since there are numerous training philosphies.
I'll be in touch to see how things are progressing. Excellent job on your weight loss. You have a great story continue to tell it.

Jerry

 

[JTE83]

Even on the same flat lakefront course, you can't compare speeds precisely from one day to the next due to weather conditions.. slight winds, temp and air density all cause variations in power required to maintain a given speed.

In addition, high temperature and humidity and sun will push your HR easily 5-10 bpm at a given power output, because your body needs to divert more blood for cooling. Same for other metabolic factors...your general stress state, sleep and eating will cause variation as well.

Your daily weight loss after a ride is more a function of dehydration than anything else. Especially in the heat, try to drink enough water during the ride so you only lose a pound or two afterwards.

Believe you're training too hard, but not often enough and not enough miles. Particularly for weight loss, you'll burn more total calories if you put in a lot more miles. To do this without injury, you'll need to slow down to an aerobic type pace of 70% or so. Suggest you ride 4-5 times a week if possible, and build up gradually to maybe 100 miles a week.

Just my thoughts here....you can obviously train as you like.

Well when I trained I biked 5 miles to the lakefront from my home. Then I did repeated 7 mile long nonstop laps. All the data that was in my analysis was for laps done in no wind conditions. At the end of each 7 mile lap I got a good drink of water to keep myself hydrated -- so I would not experience heart rate drift. And 7 min rests in between laps sure keep me from getting saddle sore.

I also kept track of the day's temperature in my training records. May 19 - 74F; June 18th - 80 F; June 29 -75F; Aug 6 -- 72F; so my summer training varied by 8 F degrees.

I measured my weight every morning just after I urinate in the morning. I find that at this time your body is "always" in the same state of dehydration from a night's sleep. So weight measurement are in a consistent state of hydration. I measured and recorded my weight in the morning on the same day I ride -- then I measured my weight in the morning on the next day. -- That's how I computed my weight loss. And the weight really stayed off unless I made bad mistakes in my diet (eating too much cookies, etc).

Currently, I'm switching down to 77% to 80% MHR rides. I'll see if that still results in weight loss and speed increase. If the weight loss is not much per ride - even with increased distance - I'll go back to 86 - 87% MHR rides for weight loss. My focus this year is for weight loss -- next year will be speed. But my data still showed an increase in avg speed per HR when I trained at 86% MHR. From my experience, 86% MHR rides really burned a lot of Fat (20lbs in 12 weeks, 35 to 52 mi rides).

 

[dhk]

Well when I trained I biked 5 miles to the lakefront from my home. Then I did repeated 7 mile long nonstop laps. All the data that was in my analysis was for laps done in no wind conditions. At the end of each 7 mile lap I got a good drink of water to keep myself hydrated -- so I would not experience heart rate drift. And 7 min rests in between laps sure keep me from getting saddle sore.

I also kept track of the day's temperature in my training records. May 19 - 74F; June 18th - 80 F; June 29 -75F; Aug 6 -- 72F; so my summer training varied by 8 F degrees.

I measured my weight every morning just after I urinate in the morning. I find that at this time your body is "always" in the same state of dehydration from a night's sleep. So weight measurement are in a consistent state of hydration. I measured and recorded my weight in the morning on the same day I ride -- then I measured my weight in the morning on the next day. -- That's how I computed my weight loss. And the weight really stayed off unless I made bad mistakes in my diet (eating too much cookies, etc).

Currently, I'm switching down to 77% to 80% MHR rides. I'll see if that still results in weight loss and speed increase. If the weight loss is not much per ride - even with increased distance - I'll go back to 86 - 87% MHR rides for weight loss. My focus this year is for weight loss -- next year will be speed. But my data still showed an increase in avg speed per HR when I trained at 86% MHR. From my experience, 86% MHR rides really burned a lot of Fat (20lbs in 12 weeks, 35 to 52 mi rides).

Have to repeat that conditions aren't as controllable as you imply. There is rarely a "no wind" day....particularly in Chicago. Even a 1-2 mph wind will make a difference in your speed. That's the reason why a lot of racers today are training with power meters.

Not sure I'm understanding here. You mean you only rode on these four or six days all summer? If so, that's not frequent enough to produce any significant weight loss or aerobic training benefit. In that case, there is no scientific "cause-effect" relationship to support your hypothesis about weight loss and exercise intensity.

Unless you're riding many hours a week, your weight loss is primarily a function of diet, as I'm sure you know. Even for those of us who do ride 10 hours/week, diet control is still required to stay lean. If you can burn 800 calories/hour on the bike during your high-intensity rides, and ride 4 times a week, that's worth about a pound.

Agree you will burn more calories per mile at high intensity, so more weight loss. If you're riding frequently, going 85% on every ride is normally a ticket to injury and overtraining. I believe riding on a daily or every other day basis, at a slower aerobic pace, will have you burning a lot more calories, and work better for you in the long run. Also, I wouldn't expect your weight loss to be steady; believe your rate of loss will decrease as you approach your goal weight, unless you continue to reduce calories.

 

[Stanners77]

Well when I trained I biked 5 miles to the lakefront from my home. Then I did repeated 7 mile long nonstop laps. All the data that was in my analysis was for laps done in no wind conditions. At the end of each 7 mile lap I got a good drink of water to keep myself hydrated -- so I would not experience heart rate drift. And 7 min rests in between laps sure keep me from getting saddle sore.

I also kept track of the day's temperature in my training records. May 19 - 74F; June 18th - 80 F; June 29 -75F; Aug 6 -- 72F; so my summer training varied by 8 F degrees.

I measured my weight every morning just after I urinate in the morning. I find that at this time your body is "always" in the same state of dehydration from a night's sleep. So weight measurement are in a consistent state of hydration. I measured and recorded my weight in the morning on the same day I ride -- then I measured my weight in the morning on the next day. -- That's how I computed my weight loss. And the weight really stayed off unless I made bad mistakes in my diet (eating too much cookies, etc).

Currently, I'm switching down to 77% to 80% MHR rides. I'll see if that still results in weight loss and speed increase. If the weight loss is not much per ride - even with increased distance - I'll go back to 86 - 87% MHR rides for weight loss. My focus this year is for weight loss -- next year will be speed. But my data still showed an increase in avg speed per HR when I trained at 86% MHR. From my experience, 86% MHR rides really burned a lot of Fat (20lbs in 12 weeks, 35 to 52 mi rides).

I'd just like to say that I'm really enjoying this thread. Sharing ideas is the definately the go.

My further thougths:

Again, congrats on the weights loss JTE. Cycling is great for it, esp when you consider stress to ankles and knees if you take up running when overweight/obese!

Funnily enough, I used to be around the 90kg mark 4 years ago and I tipped the scales at 76.5kg this morning. V similar to your own weight loss, except that mine was over a much longer period and I've only been super keen for about the last 1.5-2 years.

You said fat burning was still your goal for this year, then speed next year. How much more do you want to lose? The lower you get from here on in, the longer it will take and frankly, you won't get much lower by training hard alone without careful attention to your diet, probably to the extent of weighing food and counting calories. That's actually not as bad as it seems. Lance 7 week book has a good guide as to your what your daily intake should be given your weekly mileage. If you're working off what you put in your mouth and a little more, you'll lose weight. Simple as that.

Drinking lots of water helps. 2 litres a day (around 3 bike bottles) should be the minimum anway but I usually drink 3 litres. It helps you reduce snacking as you feel that bit more full and satisfied. Very correct - weighing in after toilet each morning is the best, most accurate way to compare weights.

RE lower HR rides, give it time - at least 6 weeks. Don't rush back to high HR work b/c you don't feel you're losing weight fast enough. Lance races with body fat as low as 3%. He always looks the leanest of his rivals. How does he do it? 'Mileage make champions' - he does lots and miles at lower intensities. The temptation for busy people who don't have the time to train every day is to belt out shorter rides at a fair tempo. Having tried it, trust me, it will only get you so far. The boys with the fast legs here in Melbourne do ~600-800kms a week and I guarantee most of it is 60-80%.

I mentioned pedalling technique before, it's hard to practice good technique mashing out rides @ 80+%. If the Polar power kit was a bit cheaper, I'd grab one and do some serious experimenting with wattage in different gears and cadences. The majority of cyclists don't pay anywhere near enough attention to their position either.

DHK - Periodised intensities - most of the workouts I do are mostly endurance/aerobic with some work around the 80% mark somewhere in the middle. In Hard and Very Hard weeks, simly increase the duration of that 80% work. An e.g. workout might be 1.5 hours @ about 70% with 30mins contstant in the middle somewhere @ 80%. I make that a separate lap on the Polar 710i so I get separate speed and HR figures for that block. I don't want to sound like a Lance disciple but it's all in that 7 week book - the most comprehensive and sensible info source I've read - lots of tips! I've even bought a snap on chain cleaner and am thouroughly washing my bike every two weeks!

Anyway, each week is also periodised, building up to a solid piece of work on Sat or Sun. Mine is a 65km group ride (4-8 guys) on Sundays. I have Mondays off and build up again from there.

You asked about HR records, sure I look at it but I also go on 'feeling'. Stats are nice but listen to your body. I know when my training is going well b/c I can sit on the front of the Sunday bunch for most of the 1.5-2 hours and blow the other guys apart in the last sprint. If I've got slack and not trained much, am sick, or overtrained - I just 'suck wheel' and try not to do much on the front.

I also am a strong believer in not having the weekly training too varied, i.e. bits of climbing, sprinting, endurance and lactate work all thrown in. Good for general fitness, bad for training your body for specific things. Do one (max 2 things) for a month, then move onto something else.

Looking forward to thoughts and other ideas...

 

[Stanners77]

Me again.

Would also welcome all your comments RE my other thread 'Which HR Zones?'

Stanners

 

[JTE83]

Not sure I'm understanding here. You mean you only rode on these four or six days all summer? If so, that's not frequent enough to produce any significant weight loss or aerobic training benefit. In that case, there is no scientific "cause-effect" relationship to support your hypothesis about weight loss and exercise intensity..

Between May 18th to August 7th – I biked 941.6 miles. 2 weeks were at 130 miles. Average week miles was 78.8 miles. Least miles per week was 41.4miles. My training days are governed by the weather – I don’t bike in the rain but I did get caught in the rain twice (soaked up shoes aren’t nice). On a day were I could not bike I did not use a trainer. If I had insomnia I did not bike. If I biked less than 25 miles one day I would be ok for me to bike the next day. Otherwise, the next day would be a rest day. I do not do on easy recovery rides.

On my 41.4 mile week I biked 36.2 mi on Monday, then biked only 5.2 miles on Saturday. Did not use a trainer on my days off. What a bad week. – I’ll switch to using a trainer on bad weather days and watching Tour De France dvd’s on from now on.

I learned after my first 30 mile ride that a 30+ mile ride will make you lose considerable weight (at 86% MHR, -- for me).

Unless you're riding many hours a week, your weight loss is primarily a function of diet, as I'm sure you know. Even for those of us who do ride 10 hours/week, diet control is still required to stay lean. If you can burn 800 calories/hour on the bike during your high-intensity rides, and ride 4 times a week, that's worth about a pound.

Agree you will burn more calories per mile at high intensity, so more weight loss. If you're riding frequently, going 85% on every ride is normally a ticket to injury and overtraining. I believe riding on a daily or every other day basis, at a slower aerobic pace, will have you burning a lot more calories, and work better for you in the long run. Also, I wouldn't expect your weight loss to be steady; believe your rate of loss will decrease as you approach your goal weight, unless you continue to reduce calories.

Yeah, after a long days ride to lose weight I tried not to eat a heavy meal. I only drink diet soda (Diet Barq’s or Diet Sunkist). I have to make sacrifices and not eat too much cookies, cakes, or candies. At most I would eat 260 calories of anything like a cookie or doughnut (per day), but I would limit myself to one big 160 calorie Pepperidge Farm Soft Baked cookie and a glass of Soy Chocolate “milk.” If I made a mistake in eating one day – I gained weight the next day – I would not repeat the same eating mistake. Most of the time I ate a decent lunch and dinner and skipped breakfast. If I woke up early I would eat a light breakfast – like a Pepperidge Farm Soft Baked cookie and a glass of Soy Chocolate “milk.”

It really hurts your motivation to ride when you gain back the weight you lost by eating.

Have to repeat that conditions aren't as controllable as you imply. There is rarely a "no wind" day....particularly in Chicago. Even a 1-2 mph wind will make a difference in your speed. That's the reason why a lot of racers today are training with power meters.

My training bike -- a 2002 Giant TCR Aero 2 (105, R535 wheels) -- has a polar power output kit. But the Polar Power kit isn't too accurate -- I would believe the numbers I get from an SRM Professional.

 

[JTE83]

Funnily enough, I used to be around the 90kg mark 4 years ago and I tipped the scales at 76.5kg this morning. V similar to your own weight loss, except that mine was over a much longer period and I've only been super keen for about the last 1.5-2 years.

You said fat burning was still your goal for this year, then speed next year. How much more do you want to lose? The lower you get from here on in, the longer it will take and frankly, you won't get much lower by training hard alone without careful attention to your diet, probably to the extent of weighing food and counting calories. That's actually not as bad as it seems. Lance 7 week book has a good guide as to your what your daily intake should be given your weekly mileage. If you're working off what you put in your mouth and a little more, you'll lose weight. Simple as that.

Drinking lots of water helps. 2 litres a day (around 3 bike bottles) should be the minimum anway but I usually drink 3 litres. It helps you reduce snacking as you feel that bit more full and satisfied. Very correct - weighing in after toilet each morning is the best, most accurate way to compare weights.

RE lower HR rides, give it time - at least 6 weeks. Don't rush back to high HR work b/c you don't feel you're losing weight fast enough. Lance races with body fat as low as 3%. He always looks the leanest of his rivals. How does he do it? 'Mileage make champions' - he does lots and miles at lower intensities. The temptation for busy people who don't have the time to train every day is to belt out shorter rides at a fair tempo. Having tried it, trust me, it will only get you so far. The boys with the fast legs here in Melbourne do ~600-800kms a week and I guarantee most of it is 60-80%....

I guess I'd like to be 150lbs - 10.2% Fat (might be hard to maintain that weight ?)

What's your Fat% and is it hard to keep it low? (You always have to watch what you eat?

I mentioned pedalling technique before, it's hard to practice good technique mashing out rides @ 80+%. If the Polar power kit was a bit cheaper, I'd grab one and do some serious experimenting with wattage in different gears and cadences. The majority of cyclists don't pay anywhere near enough attention to their position either.

I got my Polar Power kit the cheapest at www.heartratemonitorsusa.com
They don't advertise the Polar Power Output kit on the web, but if you call them - they have it. I requested it when I ordered my S720i - and they had it for $240 to $260. My Power Output Kit failed in 6 months / sent it to Polar USA for warranty repairs and they sent it back in 1.5 weeks. Don't buy the Power kit from ebay -- you need the warranty!

DHK - Periodised intensities - most of the workouts I do are mostly endurance/aerobic with some work around the 80% mark somewhere in the middle. In Hard and Very Hard weeks, simly increase the duration of that 80% work. An e.g. workout might be 1.5 hours @ about 70% with 30mins contstant in the middle somewhere @ 80%. I make that a separate lap on the Polar 710i so I get separate speed and HR figures for that block. I don't want to sound like a Lance disciple but it's all in that 7 week book - the most comprehensive and sensible info source I've read - lots of tips! I've even bought a snap on chain cleaner and am thouroughly washing my bike every two weeks!..

What's your speed at 70% MHR? At 79% ? At 86% ? How long have you been training ?