Did Ullrich wait for Lance on Luz Ardiden?

[gylfie]

quote from wolfix
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"Were you angry when Lance waited for Ullrich when he crashed????? And of course Ullrich said he waited , but the other riders said he was not waiting ..... And as you watch the re-runs , I doubt he was waiting"
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Why would I be angry when Lance waited for Ullrich? Are you referring to when Ullrich fell off the side of the road partway down a mountainside? As I recall, when Ullrich managed to crawl back up to the course he never hopped on his bike and just blew by Lance. If memory serves me correct from that incident they rode together for a while which is what I expected Lance to do since his closest rival was so close that yeasr, in the GC, but still chose to wait.

On the Charlie Rose interview last night Lance said that Ullrich did wait for him so if you choose to keep on believing that Ullrich did not wait, go right ahead, but Lance says otherwise.

Quote from wolfix:
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I bet you were really angry when Lance blew by Ullrich like he was a baby on a trike the first dayof the TDF this year....."
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I hardly think you are adding to the level if discourse by referring to a great rider like Ullrich, whom Lance himself has called his greatest rival, as a baby on a trike. Ullrich sure gave Armstrong a great run on the last time trial didn't he when he pulled himself up from fourth to third? I do not expect that you will answer that because it would mean saying something good about a rider other than Lance.

Quote from Beastt
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"How can anyone conclude that taking an alternate route to avoid a crashed rider and losing time in the process is cheating?"
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Well if what you say is all true then why did Liggett and Sherwen say that the race officials would have been well within their right to disqualify Lance for that very same move that you are now defending as the only thing that Lance could have done?

These are men who have always been Lance cheerleaders so I was frankly surprised to hear them say anything that went against the Lance mystique. Needless to say, I was pleasantly surprised, because I have always felt that what he did there was wrong.

 

[rejobako]

It's always amusing to hear from those who gnash their teeth in Lance-hatred about the Beloki crash. The argument about whether he should have dismounted his bike, climbed back up the hill, and reentered the course in the same place has some merit as a debatable issue, although as has been noted, the rules provide for some discretion by the race officials. Armstrong certainly did not leave the course on purpose, and did not gain any time in doing so, as one can plainly see from the race footage that Armstrong remounted his bike just as Hamilton and others were racing by -- riders who were behind Armstrong/Beloki to begin with. What Armstrong did was take the only possible route given a crash by a competitor, and make the best of the situation without gaining an advantage over the other riders. Seems to me that is a more fair result rather than to suggest that Armstrong should be unduly penalized by forcing him to climb back up the hill, and thereby probably losing two or three minutes to the entire field.

The race rules are drafted to try to make the race fair for everyone concerned. I would feel differently about this had Armstrong gone on his little trailbiking adventure due to his own miscalculation -- given, however, that he only did so to avoid another rider on a precarious descent, I have no problem with it.

The more amusing assertion is that Armstrong should have abandoned his Tour aspirations to climb back up the hill and hold Beloki's hand while everyone else raced by him, as if he had an ethical duty to stay by a fallen comrade. (As I recall, none of the other GC contenders who flew by Beloki stopped to pay their respects.) Armstrong did not cause Beloki's crash, nor could he have done anything to assist Beloki that his own team and the race doctors couldn't have done. Lance is a lot of things, but to my knowledge he is not an emergency physician.

The Tour de France is a race. There are moments when the goal of finishing first is put aside for a moment, such as when Armstrong and Ullrich waited for each other after crashes, etc. But only a confirmed Armstrong-hater could be so objectively challenged as to suggest that Armstrong, and only Armstrong, was under some sort of ethical obligation to abandon his GC hopes and console a fallen competitor, simply because he happened to be the closest rider to him, while Vinokourov raced on ahead to the finish, and while everyone else passed by.

 

[thebluetrain]

So LA was supposed to stop and try to help Beloki? I didnt see JU who was sitting third wheel behind LA and Mayo stop to help either one of them when they went down on Luz Ardiden. Of course LA was not injured as bad as Beloki was, but in that split second when Beloki went down how was LA supposed to know how injured Beloki was? How was LA supposed to know that Beloki had broken his leg and couldnt remount his bike and keep going?

 

[rejobako]

So LA was supposed to stop and try to help Beloki? I didnt see JU who was sitting third wheel behind LA and Mayo stop to help either one of them when they went down on Luz Ardiden. Of course LA was not injured as bad as Beloki was, but in that split second when Beloki went down how was LA supposed to know how injured Beloki was? How was LA supposed to know that Beloki had broken his leg and couldnt remount his bike and keep going?

And as I suggested, what difference would it make? Beloki and Armstrong were racing in near proximity, but they were not involved in a duel. Beloki's accident took place in the context of a race full of GC contenders on a desperate descent. Why was Armstrong under a duty to take off his yellow jersey and wipe Beloki's brow with it while everyone else raced by? The entire premise is nonsense, in my opinion.

 

[thebluetrain]

"The entire premise is nonsense, in my opinion.'[/QUOTE]

Mine too. Just another LA hater trying to point out faults in LA for no other reason other than bitterness.

 

[davidbod]

Hi I found this forum while on another message board and the subject of whether Jan waited came up, because of Lance's interview on Charlie Rose last night.


I remember when it happened and Jan did wait for Lance to catch up. I was so angry when Lance blew right by Ullrich, after he caught up, and I always have felt that it was in poor taste and very unspotsmanlike.

With regards to Lance taking his shortcut across the field that was definitely cheating. This year, when the OLN commentators, Sherwen and Liggett were doing the 25 Greatest Lance Moments they must have been very embarrassed showing that ride across the field while Lance left Beloki lying there writhing in pain.

They even agreed that the race offiicials would have been within their right to have disqualified him for that move. I remember wen it happened I was so mad and I have been harping about it ever since.

Because of the shortcut cheating and Ullrich waiting for Lance, only to have Lance blow right by him when he caught up to Ullrich, I do not believe that Lance deserved to win that Tour and for me, his subsequent tour wins were tainted if you are looking at it from a "record" standpoint.

I am new to this forum. I see the active threads but how do you find older threads? I am a really big Erik Zabel fan and would not mind finding a thread on him.

If I recall correctly, When the group reformed after Ullrich waited it was Mayo who attacked and then Lance followed. Lance did not just blow by Ullrich. Nothing you have said in your post is correct or factual, except the fact that Jan waited. See other posts for your falacy on the Beloki issue.

 

[JRMDC]

I remember when it happened and Jan did wait for Lance to catch up. I was so angry when Lance blew right by Ullrich, after he caught up, and I always have felt that it was in poor taste and very unspotsmanlike.

Well, Luz Ardiden has been debated here and elsewhere many times over. Opinions will differ, probably forever. (I happen to think Ullrich behaved appropriately, but that is not relevant to what I have to say here.)

HOWEVER, there is also the not-so-trivial notion of fact. When Lance caught up, he joined the group and did not attack or blow by Ullrich. After a number of seconds passed (20? sorry, I don't remember offhand), Mayo attacked, not LA. LA followed that attack and in turned attacked Mayo.

Your getting wrong one of the most basic elements of the situation, one which I hadn't seen disputed until today, makes me wonder about the veracity or value of other things you say.

 

[thebluetrain]

Well, Luz Ardiden has been debated here and elsewhere many times over. Opinions will differ, probably forever. (I happen to think Ullrich behaved appropriately, but that is not relevant to what I have to say here.)

HOWEVER, there is also the not-so-trivial notion of fact. When Lance caught up, he joined the group and did not attack or blow by Ullrich. After a number of seconds passed (20? sorry, I don't remember offhand), Mayo attacked, not LA. LA followed that attack and in turned attacked Mayo.

Your getting wrong one of the most basic elements of the situation, one which I hadn't seen disputed until today, makes me wonder about the veracity or value of other things you say.

Thanks JRMDC, now I am going to have to get out my 2003 DVD tonight when I get home and watch this stage again. All this LuzArdiden talk has got my mouth watering.

 

[rejobako]

HOWEVER, there is also the not-so-trivial notion of fact. When Lance caught up, he joined the group and did not attack or blow by Ullrich. After a number of seconds passed (20? sorry, I don't remember offhand), Mayo attacked, not LA. LA followed that attack and in turned attacked Mayo.

Not to mention that some seem to be advocating a theatre of the absurdly polite among the members of the peleton.

Phil: "Oh, no, Armstrong is down. Ullrich looks confused, but sits up on the bike and waits . . . what a gallant gesture by the big German as the sweat glistens on his muscular calves. . . ."

Paul: "Shut up, Phil, you're rambling."

Phil: "Right, sorry. . . Armstrong re-mounts the bike and now powers up the hill. Look at him dancing on the pedals like a Degas ballerina. . . "

Paul: "I said stop it, Phil, and get your hand off my thigh."

Phil: "Right, sorry . . . and Armstrong and Ullrich are now back together and Lance sits up as if to say "thanks, Jan, for being such a swell guy" he offers his hand in friendship, but Jan won't settle for less than an embrace and the two warriors hug and unless I'm mistaken, Jan even gave Lance an affectionate peck on the cheek. Isn't that amazing."

Paul: "Amazing indeed, Phil, and now Armstrong gestures to Ullrich, offering him the benefit of the road ahead. Wait, Ullrich won't hear of it, and motions for Armstrong to take the lead. Well, now, this is unprecedented. The two big guns of the Tour de France exhibiting the height of sportsmanship."

Phil: "Will you look at that? Neither man will lift a pedal in anger before the other one. Meanwhile, Iban Mayo has taken advantage of the precious moment between these two giants and is racing up the mountain. In fact, Armstrong and Ullrich, still exchanging pleasantries, are being passed by everyone. There goes Zubeldia, Moreau, and Basso too."

Paul: "I need a tissue. This is too much."

Phil: "What's this? Unable to decide which of them should take precedence Armstrong and Ullrich have dismounted their bicycles and are now walking arm in arm up the mountain. Of course, they will both be disqualified and lose their yellow jersey aspirations, but what a show of sportsmanship, right Paul?

Paul: "Sniffle."

 

[Beastt]

Well if what you say is all true then why did Liggett and Sherwen say that the race officials would have been well within their right to disqualify Lance for that very same move that you are now defending as the only thing that Lance could have done?

These are men who have always been Lance cheerleaders so I was frankly surprised to hear them say anything that went against the Lance mystique. Needless to say, I was pleasantly surprised, because I have always felt that what he did there was wrong.

Odd indeed, since during that stage and even the next day both Phil and Paul were commenting on the rules used by the judges and defending the decision made. In fact, I've got it all on tape. I can get you the sound clip if you like.

Suggesting that Lance cheated when he did the only reasonable thing he could do is just silly. He didn't cause the problem, Beloki did. Not that I'm being judgemental toward Beloki. Obviously he didn't want to crash. But his crash presented an obstacle and Armstrong simply utilized the only reasonable course of action available and still lost time in the process. Perhaps Beloki should have been penalized for slowing another rider? Of course not, that's just part of racing. But I know of no rule which demands that another rider lose 10 seconds on a group when a reasonable alternative allows him to cut that loss to something more like 3 seconds.

Lance took a reasonable course of action, lost time and lost several places in the stage. What he did was remarkable, but certainly not cheating.

 

[mitosis]

Hi I found this forum while on another message board and the subject of whether Jan waited came up, because of Lance's interview on Charlie Rose last night.


I remember when it happened and Jan did wait for Lance to catch up. I was so angry when Lance blew right by Ullrich, after he caught up, and I always have felt that it was in poor taste and very unspotsmanlike.

.

This has already been done to death on this forum.

The opinion of over 80% of posters on this thread is that Ullrich waited. If the recent comments by Ullrich that he waited are true it should put the matter to rest.

With regards to Lance taking his shortcut across the field that was definitely cheating. This year, when the OLN commentators, Sherwen and Liggett were doing the 25 Greatest Lance Moments they must have been very embarrassed showing that ride across the field while Lance left Beloki lying there writhing in pain.

They even agreed that the race offiicials would have been within their right to have disqualified him for that move. I remember wen it happened I was so mad and I have been harping about it ever since.

It is cheating if the race officials decide it is. Whether it was sportsmanlike is another matter. It was allowed so therefore it is not classed as cheating.

 

[jhuskey]

I finally asked and got the answer. Did Jan wait? Too late now,nobody cares anymore ,maybe, but at least I know now.

 

[whiteboytrash]

I finally asked and got the answer. Did Jan wait? Too late now,nobody cares anymore ,maybe, but at least I know now.

I have to say I laughed out loud when I saw this topic come back from the dead ! Very good........ sooooooo...... did he wait ? I hope he didn't and is he ****** off that Tyler dobbed him into Lance for not waiting.... did Ullrich get Fuentes to spike Hamilton's blood ?

 

[Bro Deal]

I finally asked and got the answer. Did Jan wait? Too late now,nobody cares anymore ,maybe, but at least I know now.

What was the answer?

 

[jhuskey]

I have to say I laughed out loud when I saw this topic come back from the dead ! Very good........ sooooooo...... did he wait ? I hope he didn't and is he ****** off that Tyler dobbed him into Lance for not waiting.... did Ullrich get Fuentes to spike Hamilton's blood ?

I'll PM you with the story but ,yes he waited.

 

[thecyclist]

Could you please PM me the story as well? Thanks.

 

[whiteboytrash]

I'll PM you with the story but ,yes he waited.

Now we know what we know about Hamilton it makes him more of a weasel..... why why why did he overact when he caught Ullrich and start gesturing ? Then why did he tell Armstrong that Ullrich wasn't waiting ? Hamilton is just the lowest scum there is in cycling... the lowest low....

 

[limerickman]

Of course, he waited.

 

[jhuskey]

Of course, he waited.

But now I have heard it from him ,not that I ever doubted.

 

[limerickman]

But now I have heard it from him ,not that I ever doubted.

so are you at liberty to share what Jan said on this topic?
Or is it PM material????