Did Ullrich wait for Lance on Luz Ardiden?

[DiabloScott]

You know, a lot of my non-bikerace savvy friends had seen or heard about this incident and I had to explain why one rider would wait for another who crashed (and then not regret it if the crashed rider goes on to win the stage and whole race). This one incident allowed me to explain racing tactics to people who probably didn't realize there were any tactics in a bike race. I think those people really developed a sense of how fascinating a bike race can be from just this single event.

 

[pineapple]

We've been analysing this frame by frame for 7 months and its still not clear exactly what Ullrich did.

Bearing this in mind, don't you think the most likely explanation is that Ulllrich was as confused as we are now? There were so many things to think about in those few seconds. Was Lance going to get up? How much time would Jan gain by attacking? Was Lance's bike broken? Would slowing down kill Jan's tempo? What would be the gentlemanly thing to do? Was he going slow enough? etc. etc. etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ullrich himself didn't know what he was doing for those first few seconds.

 

[Beastt]

Originally posted by pineapple
We've been analysing this frame by frame for 7 months and its still not clear exactly what Ullrich did.

Bearing this in mind, don't you think the most likely explanation is that Ulllrich was as confused as we are now? There were so many things to think about in those few seconds. Was Lance going to get up? How much time would Jan gain by attacking? Was Lance's bike broken? Would slowing down kill Jan's tempo? What would be the gentlemanly thing to do? Was he going slow enough? etc. etc. etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ullrich himself didn't know what he was doing for those first few seconds.

I absolutely agree with you about Ullrich not being able to sort out exactly what was happening or exactly what he should do about it. Several riders were being separated from Mayo, Armstrong and Ullrich at the point where Lance fell. Having to slow meant letting those riders recover and having to try to out pace and drop them again. As much as things might have been cleared up slightly a minute or so later, it must still have been difficult for Ullrich to know exactly what to do. Obvioulsy, he still wanted to win and he knew he might be looking at his chance. If Armstrong were hurt and unable to continue, how long do you wait?

We can't know what Ullrich may have been told via radio but from what I could see, no one really knew what was going on for quite some time. All that being said, I thought the race announcers, (for the American broadcast), concluded a bit too early that Ullrich was sitting up and waiting for Armstrong to rejoin. Whether it was from confusion, internal conflict, team orders or any combination thereof, what I saw and still see moments after Armstrong fell is Ullrich pushing at the front.

 

[limerickman]

Originally posted by Beastt
I absolutely agree with you about Ullrich not being able to sort out exactly what was happening or exactly what he should do about it. Several riders were being separated from Mayo, Armstrong and Ullrich at the point where Lance fell. Having to slow meant letting those riders recover and having to try to out pace and drop them again. As much as things might have been cleared up slightly a minute or so later, it must still have been difficult for Ullrich to know exactly what to do. Obvioulsy, he still wanted to win and he knew he might be looking at his chance. If Armstrong were hurt and unable to continue, how long do you wait?

We can't know what Ullrich may have been told via radio but from what I could see, no one really knew what was going on for quite some time. All that being said, I thought the race announcers, (for the American broadcast), concluded a bit too early that Ullrich was sitting up and waiting for Armstrong to rejoin. Whether it was from confusion, internal conflict, team orders or any combination thereof, what I saw and still see moments after Armstrong fell is Ullrich pushing at the front.

What video do you watch ?
Are you watching the actual stage - shot in real time - of the TDF ?

 

[Beastt]

Originally posted by limerickman
What video do you watch ?
Are you watching the actual stage - shot in real time - of the TDF ?

I have friends with satellite tape the broadcast from the Outdoor Life Network . That's about the only way to see the Tour de France where I live. Of course, I can get golf 24-hours a day. *Glurg*

I understand that OLN has an exclusive contract for live coverage in the U.S. but the footage is provided by French television so it should be very similar to what is seen over there. I also have the race on DVD but in a highly edited version using segments of the same footage broadcast on OLN.

I'm not sure what footage Armstrong watched but in a special broadcast a week or two after the race called, "Defining Moments", he said what he saw was, "Ullrich, on the front, going". The quote may not be exact.

A friend and I were both surprised and supportive of him for saying what he thought regardless of the fact that it wasn't politically correct. We'd both felt that Ullrich was still "going" from the first moment we watched the stage. Calling it the way he sees it is probably one reason Lance isn't very popular among many. People are rarely fond of honesty if it doesn't line up with their thoughts. I suppose that's why politicians make such limited use of it.

 

[limerickman]

Originally posted by Beastt
I have friends with satellite tape the broadcast from the Outdoor Life Network . That's about the only way to see the Tour de France where I live. Of course, I can get golf 24-hours a day. *Glurg*

I understand that OLN has an exclusive contract for live coverage in the U.S. but the footage is provided by French television so it should be very similar to what is seen over there. I also have the race on DVD but in a highly edited version using segments of the same footage broadcast on OLN.

I'm not sure what footage Armstrong watched but in a special broadcast a week or two after the race called, "Defining Moments", he said what he saw was, "Ullrich, on the front, going". The quote may not be exact.

A friend and I were both surprised and supportive of him for saying what he thought regardless of the fact that it wasn't politically correct. We'd both felt that Ullrich was still "going" from the first moment we watched the stage. Calling it the way he sees it is probably one reason Lance isn't very popular among many. People are rarely fond of honesty if it doesn't line up with their thoughts. I suppose that's why politicians make such limited use of it.

Thanks for the reply.
We have a channel here in Europe called Eurosport – it provides live coverage of all the stages of the TDF.
Where there is a long mountainous stage, it covers the stage from start to finish live.
This can mean that stages are transmitted for up to 8 hours per day.
But it’s live.
And that’s my point.
I took the day off work to watch the Luz stage and I also taped it for posterity
(because I guessed that this was going to be the defining stage, especially after Ullrich’s good performances in the previous days).
Therefore the tape that I have watched subsequently is realtime, live, uninterrupted coverage of what happened, as it happened that day.

Of course, one cannot know what was in Ullrichs mind at the moment the crash happened, but I can tell you that his tempo did not increase in the immediate seconds after the crash.
He rode at exactly the same tempo as he did prior to the fall.
Nor did he try to increase his tempo in the 1 minute 42 seconds that it took for Hamilton to reach Ullrich and to start waving his hand about.
By not increasing his tempo, Ullrich effectively did not take advantage of the fall.

Now we can speculate to the end of time, as to why he did not increase his tempo.
Maybe he was unaware of the extent of the accident, maybe he chose not to take
advantage, may be he was tired, maybe, maybe.
The fact of the matter is that he did not take advantage of the fall – regardless of whether he voluntarily/involuntarily decided not to do so.

 

[Ted B]

Originally posted by limerickman
By not increasing his tempo, Ullrich effectively did not take advantage of the fall...The fact of the matter is that he did not take advantage of the fall – regardless of whether he voluntarily/involuntarily decided not to do so.

Agreed. I think these two sentences summarize it entirely. The rest is but speculation.

 

[Beastt]

Originally posted by limerickman
Thanks for the reply.
We have a channel here in Europe called Eurosport – it provides live coverage of all the stages of the TDF.
Where there is a long mountainous stage, it covers the stage from start to finish live.
This can mean that stages are transmitted for up to 8 hours per day.
But it’s live.
And that’s my point.
I took the day off work to watch the Luz stage and I also taped it for posterity
(because I guessed that this was going to be the defining stage, especially after Ullrich’s good performances in the previous days).
Therefore the tape that I have watched subsequently is realtime, live, uninterrupted coverage of what happened, as it happened that day.

(...snip...)

By not increasing his tempo, Ullrich effectively did not take advantage of the fall.

(...snip...)

The fact of the matter is that he did not take advantage of the fall – regardless of whether he voluntarily/involuntarily decided not to do so.

Firstly, I'm terribly jealous of your coverage of the event. You might think that with an American winning consistently, there would be more interest in watching the event here, (in the U.S.). The facts, unfortunately, are quite different. We have a pair of channels, (ESPN & ESPN2), in my area that televise sports 24-hours a day. They used to provide 1 or 2 hours of Tour de France coverage daily, during the event. That stopped when OLN snagged their exclusive live-coverage contract about 3-years ago. The basic cable providers in my area don't include OLN in their line-up of channels so without satellite, you're out of luck.

I remember a couple of years ago when Lance won the Tour, (his 3rd, I think), on the same day that Tiger Woods won the British Open golf tournament. Now to my mind, golf isn't a sport, it's a game. It requires a ton of skill and dedication but it's still just a game. I prefer to think of sports as being those contests which place a high degree of importance on athletic ability - my own, arguable definition. To me, there is really no comparison. Grandma and Grandpa are out on the course swinging their cute little sticks at the over-weight, pimpled ping-pong ball. (I'm not showing a bias here, am I?) Anyway, the news in the U.S. talked endlessly about Tiger's victory and on one channel, I heard about a 15-second mention that Armstrong had won the Tour again. It's just totally out of proportion, in my opinion. *END of rant on golf fanatics, golf bias and lame American "sports"*

As far as the issue concerning Ullrich's response to Armstrong's fall on Luz Ardiden, perhaps much of the controversy revolves around something mentioned here on more than one occasion. The commentators I heard, the same ones who later hosted the special, ("Defining Moments") with Lance Armstrong, definitely used the term "waiting". I didn't see Ullrich waiting. I didn't see him attack but he didn't slow his pace, that I could tell, either.

The only other waiting incident that I have video of was Lance waiting for Ullrich on the Peyresourde. The two make for impossible comparison but when Ullrich went off the road, Armstrong slowed his pace. He even stopped pedaling for short stretches until Livingston and Ullrich caught the group. Having said that, it's necessary that I also point out that it was a completely different situation. Armstrong was going downhill, had no team mates either with him or ahead of him, and the gap between 1st and 2nd wasn't enough to cause him concern. If he went out alone, he'd tire himself while Ullrich had a team mate. If it came down to who had the greatest energy reserves for the final kilometers, Ullrich would have gained time on Armstrong. So, Lance wasn't just being noble, he was also being smart. Wait for your closest competition so you can use them as well as their domestique.

If we reduce the controversy to did Ullrich not take advantage of Armstrong's fall by not attacking, I'm in complete agreement with you. The feel-good story is that Ullrich "waited" for Armstrong and I'm not of the mind that he didn't slow a bit, for a while. But I didn't see anything that, to me, looked like a genuine attempt to let Lance rejoin the group until after Hamilton came to the front and issued a gesture of reminder about certain gentleman's rules of cycling.

 

[limerickman]

Originally posted by Beastt
Firstly, I'm terribly jealous of your coverage of the event. You might think that with an American winning consistently, there would be more interest in watching the event here, (in the U.S.). The facts, unfortunately, are quite different. We have a pair of channels, (ESPN & ESPN2), in my area that televise sports 24-hours a day. They used to provide 1 or 2 hours of Tour de France coverage daily, during the event. That stopped when OLN snagged their exclusive live-coverage contract about 3-years ago. The basic cable providers in my area don't include OLN in their line-up of channels so without satellite, you're out of luck.

I remember a couple of years ago when Lance won the Tour, (his 3rd, I think), on the same day that Tiger Woods won the British Open golf tournament. Now to my mind, golf isn't a sport, it's a game. It requires a ton of skill and dedication but it's still just a game. I prefer to think of sports as being those contests which place a high degree of importance on athletic ability - my own, arguable definition. To me, there is really no comparison. Grandma and Grandpa are out on the course swinging their cute little sticks at the over-weight, pimpled ping-pong ball. (I'm not showing a bias here, am I?) Anyway, the news in the U.S. talked endlessly about Tiger's victory and on one channel, I heard about a 15-second mention that Armstrong had won the Tour again. It's just totally out of proportion, in my opinion. *END of rant on golf fanatics, golf bias and lame American "sports"*

As far as the issue concerning Ullrich's response to Armstrong's fall on Luz Ardiden, perhaps much of the controversy revolves around something mentioned here on more than one occasion. The commentators I heard, the same ones who later hosted the special, ("Defining Moments") with Lance Armstrong, definitely used the term "waiting". I didn't see Ullrich waiting. I didn't see him attack but he didn't slow his pace, that I could tell, either.

The only other waiting incident that I have video of was Lance waiting for Ullrich on the Peyresourde. The two make for impossible comparison but when Ullrich went off the road, Armstrong slowed his pace. He even stopped pedaling for short stretches until Livingston and Ullrich caught the group. Having said that, it's necessary that I also point out that it was a completely different situation. Armstrong was going downhill, had no team mates either with him or ahead of him, and the gap between 1st and 2nd wasn't enough to cause him concern. If he went out alone, he'd tire himself while Ullrich had a team mate. If it came down to who had the greatest energy reserves for the final kilometers, Ullrich would have gained time on Armstrong. So, Lance wasn't just being noble, he was also being smart. Wait for your closest competition so you can use them as well as their domestique.

If we reduce the controversy to did Ullrich not take advantage of Armstrong's fall by not attacking, I'm in complete agreement with you. The feel-good story is that Ullrich "waited" for Armstrong and I'm not of the mind that he didn't slow a bit, for a while. But I didn't see anything that, to me, looked like a genuine attempt to let Lance rejoin the group until after Hamilton came to the front and issued a gesture of reminder about certain gentleman's rules of cycling.

Move to Europe and watch cycling 24 hours per day !

Yes, we are very fortunate to get this extensive coverage of cycling on Eurosport and I suppose it is surprising that with an
American winning - and winning repeatedly here in Europe it is indeed suprising that there isn't more live coverage of the TDF
on the main US networks.
And I take it that you're not a fan of golf !
Golf gets great coverage over here as well too.
If this is any consolation !!!!!!!!!!

As regards the Ullrich slowing story - this will probably go on
until the end of time.
I suppose it is subjective as to how people will interpret Ullrich's
behaviour.

All I can say - and I'm glad that Ted B agrees - Ullrich didn't seek
to profit from Armstrong's fall.
And I think that this is the nub of the argument :
You are right, LA did slow down in on the Peyresourde - he literally
did slow to a stop.
But Ullrich didn't try to increase his tempo when LA fell, he didn't
try to sprint away.
If you consider the time gap between LA's fall and Hamiltons
appearance beside Ullrich - it was one minute 42 seconds.
That is an appreciable volume of time - during which Ullrich could have decided to have a go.

 

[hemplands]

Limerick, don't show off!!

If they move to Europe don't move to the UK. We have British Eurosport geared up to everything else except cycling. (a little like the coverage of golf in the US) OK we have coverage during the tour, but if its the world tiddly-winks championship from Sheffield is on they show that instead.

Last September on the last Saturday at the Vuelta, the mountain tine-trial, we got rhythmic gymnastics, waving ribbons in the air. In my analogy that is equivalent to watching paint dry. I had the misfortune to be at the Cycle Show in London, partly sponsored by Eurosport and it was supposed to be the highlight of the weekend watching it live, utter disaster.

Then they butcher the Classics, Tour of Flanders, Paris-Roubaix etc. because of Motorsports. In the World Championships we missed the middle of the men's elite race because of women's football, so be grateful you have International Eurosport.

 

[Beastt]

Originally posted by limerickman
Move to Europe and watch cycling 24 hours per day !

I'm afraid the commute to work would be a tad inconvenient.

 

[ItalianStallion]

I guess that an event like the tour the france is an endurance one, and during this sort of events you beat your opponent because you're fitter. It's not about you makes less mistakes, it's about who's fater on the day.

Somebody mentioned MotoGP. Well, that's a sprint event, and during sprint events errors are considered part of "package" when trying to win.

Take for instance track events: we're still in cycling, so the cycling etiquette should apply. But if somebody falls, nobody is going to wait for them. That's because track events are sprints, and you're gonna pay for your errors.

I hope I made myself clear.

 

[lischoux]

Originally posted by Shnerpals
In response to the post made by Beastt:

first let me say holy ****...and second is i think you won your case! hehe that was awesome! i agree with you completely and hope you never stand against me in a debate! hehe

I also agree to Beastt's excellent analyis. I always thought that Ulle did not "wait" but merely did not launch an attack. Nevertheless what he did was not unfair and he should be respected for it.

HOWEVER.... Giving him the prize for fairness like the German Sport association did... I think that's a little strong. It may actually say something about the German sportsmanship in general

 

[limerickman]

Originally posted by lischoux
I also agree to Beastt's excellent analyis. I always thought that Ulle did not "wait" but merely did not launch an attack. Nevertheless what he did was not unfair and he should be respected for it.

HOWEVER.... Giving him the prize for fairness like the German Sport association did... I think that's a little strong. It may actually say something about the German sportsmanship in general

Ullrich received several international awards this year for his sportsmanship :
I don't know whether these awards were solely given to him on the basis of what happened at Luz, though.
I do think that he has a very sporting attitude - everyone who cycles with/against him hold him in very high regard as to his behaviour on the bike.

Beastt analysis is very thorough (like a lot of his answers on various threads).
What stood out for me on the Luz stage was the time difference between LA crash and Hamiltons (apparent) gesture to the group to slow down.
The time difference between the crash and TH's gesture is 1min
41secs.
In that time if JU was really out to capitalise on LA's misfortune (for that was what it was), he could have tried to go.
Instead, he chose not to capitalise on it.

What I'm going to say next is speculation on my part, but I think JU could have capitalised on LA's crash if he had the intention to do so.
If you recall when LA recovered, he blasted away up to the finish
and had a lead (before the finish) of approx 1min 10sec on the road over JU.
JU despite not being able to perform as well as LA in the very high mountains, actually started to catch LA toward the end of that stage and finished 45 secs down (without bonus's to either cyclist), thus recouping 25 secs.
It's only a small point but it just might show that JU can actually climb in the very high mountains and it just might show that LA
might not be climbing as strongly as he did in prior years.
(this might be this JU supporter grasping at straws but there you go..........!)

 

[lischoux]

Originally posted by limerickman
Ullrich received several international awards this year for his sportsmanship :
I don't know whether these awards were solely given to him on the basis of what happened at Luz, though.
I do think that he has a very sporting attitude - everyone who cycles with/against him hold him in very high regard as to his behaviour on the bike.

Beastt analysis is very thorough (like a lot of his answers on various threads).
What stood out for me on the Luz stage was the time difference between LA crash and Hamiltons (apparent) gesture to the group to slow down.
The time difference between the crash and TH's gesture is 1min
41secs.
In that time if JU was really out to capitalise on LA's misfortune (for that was what it was), he could have tried to go.
Instead, he chose not to capitalise on it.

What I'm going to say next is speculation on my part, but I think JU could have capitalised on LA's crash if he had the intention to do so.
If you recall when LA recovered, he blasted away up to the finish
and had a lead (before the finish) of approx 1min 10sec on the road over JU.
JU despite not being able to perform as well as LA in the very high mountains, actually started to catch LA toward the end of that stage and finished 45 secs down (without bonus's to either cyclist), thus recouping 25 secs.
It's only a small point but it just might show that JU can actually climb in the very high mountains and it just might show that LA
might not be climbing as strongly as he did in prior years.
(this might be this JU supporter grasping at straws but there you go..........!)

2 quick comments...

Ulle screwed up big time in 2001 and 2002... Car crash, drinking, party drugs... A year later he comes back. Ok not bad. He's there where he was supposed to be in 2001 and where he could have been in 2002... But does that mean that anyone who screws up and comes back is a great sportsman ? No. I believe Germany may be thirsty for real winners. Schumi in F1 is a parade (negative) example and everyone just adores him... although if you look at it rationally he's just a putz who's in the right car at the right time. Ulle has much more merit in anything he did in 2003 than Schumi did in his entire career. My point is that yes Ulle probably deserved to get recognition for his year... But to give him a prize for fairness ? I dunno...

Lance was in bad shape this year but if you look at it he was in a different position as well due to the bad TT. If he had dominated that one he could have repeated the strategy of 2000, 2001 and/or 2002, e.g. letting the others attack and crushing them in counterattacks.

2004 will be excellent and I mean E X C E L L E N T to watch !

Btw... Best TDF TV coverage... Try Luxembourg ! You have Eurosport, Belgian, German, French (and Italian, Spanish and other TV stations) and can compare the nationalistic and sometimes chauvinistic nuances in their commentary. 2003 was the first time I saw the TDF outside of Lux (e.g. Montreal ) on OLN ("The Phil and Paul show") and French Quebec Canal Evasion (what a BAD coverage and baaaaaad commentary) and I really miss the Europeans. Eddy Merckx on Belgian TV or Laurent Jaja Jalabert on French are classic

 

[jhuskey]

I just realized whether Lance wins or loses the next TDF he will eat Crow either way. I know thats bad I just wanted to try to be the first to post it. If someone else beat me to it in another thread. I am sorry for being repetitious

 

[Fixey]

Originally posted by lischoux
2 quick comments...

Ulle screwed up big time in 2001 and 2002... Car crash, drinking, party drugs... A year later he comes back. Ok not bad. He's there where he was supposed to be in 2001 and where he could have been in 2002... But does that mean that anyone who screws up and comes back is a great sportsman ? No. I believe Germany may be thirsty for real winners. Schumi in F1 is a parade (negative) example and everyone just adores him... although if you look at it rationally he's just a putz who's in the right car at the right time. Ulle has much more merit in anything he did in 2003 than Schumi did in his entire career. My point is that yes Ulle probably deserved to get recognition for his year... But to give him a prize for fairness ? I dunno...

Lance was in bad shape this year but if you look at it he was in a different position as well due to the bad TT. If he had dominated that one he could have repeated the strategy of 2000, 2001 and/or 2002, e.g. letting the others attack and crushing them in counterattacks.

2004 will be excellent and I mean E X C E L L E N T to watch !

Btw... Best TDF TV coverage... Try Luxembourg ! You have Eurosport, Belgian, German, French (and Italian, Spanish and other TV stations) and can compare the nationalistic and sometimes chauvinistic nuances in their commentary. 2003 was the first time I saw the TDF outside of Lux (e.g. Montreal ) on OLN ("The Phil and Paul show") and French Quebec Canal Evasion (what a BAD coverage and baaaaaad commentary) and I really miss the Europeans. Eddy Merckx on Belgian TV or Laurent Jaja Jalabert on French are classic

ok here goes, Lance is as good as he ever was, Ullrich has just finally turned up half fit, instead of people accepting maybey he is a good rider they hafe to say LA was not going well because he didnt blitz the field, thats kind of insulting to LA, JU and everybody else really. Did he wait for LA? of course he did, and it could have cost him BIG, JU is a big gear climber, notice how LA bolts away and JU chugs back up slowly? Here is how I believe it went, JU waited, lost momentum and LA cought up, full of adrenilin, and kept going, I train alot of kids, if they have a small fall they usually fly after it. The fact that JU came back at LA at the end of the stage reinforces my theory. JU is aware, im sure, how he climbs hills and would of been aware of the consequences of waiting......I think it is one of the single greatest sporting gestures I have seen, He deserves any acalaid that comes his way.....to say the Germans are desperate to pick him is most unkind and judgeing by your other very good posts, a little beneath you lischoux, come on guys credit where credit is due

 

[lischoux]

Originally posted by Fixey
ok here goes, Lance is as good as he ever was, Ullrich has just finally turned up half fit, instead of people accepting maybey he is a good rider they hafe to say LA was not going well because he didnt blitz the field, thats kind of insulting to LA, JU and everybody else really. Did he wait for LA? of course he did, and it could have cost him BIG, JU is a big gear climber, notice how LA bolts away and JU chugs back up slowly? Here is how I believe it went, JU waited, lost momentum and LA cought up, full of adrenilin, and kept going, I train alot of kids, if they have a small fall they usually fly after it. The fact that JU came back at LA at the end of the stage reinforces my theory. JU is aware, im sure, how he climbs hills and would of been aware of the consequences of waiting......I think it is one of the single greatest sporting gestures I have seen, He deserves any acalaid that comes his way.....to say the Germans are desperate to pick him is most unkind and judgeing by your other very good posts, a little beneath you lischoux, come on guys credit where credit is due

Ok...Criticism accepted. You're of course entitled to your opinion.But let me add that I respect Ulle and deeply so for his comeback. Nothing to say against it and everything to speak in his favor.

But the main focus of my grudge is that Germany (and I want to single out the German Sports Media in particular) are a bunch of hypocritical puddknockers. If you follow www.radsport-news.com (sorry it's only in German) and magazines such as Der Spiegel (www.spiegel.de) or newspapers such as Bild (www.bild.de) you will see a tendency that is not unlike what Italian media has done for as long as I can remember, namely: They praise you to high heaven if you even give a hint of becoming a "winner", but the moment that you show a glimpse of weakness, you're not even worth the column space in the paper. This is, of course, done to SELL their garbage to the public, who (not only but in this case) in Germany has taken a serious dose of "no-brain" tablets and does not recognize the merrit and value that ALL athletes have (well maybe there are exceptions) even if they're failing at what they do. Cycling is just an example but in Germany you have certain key sports (Ski Jumping, Tennis, F1, etc...) that are scrutinized and become of gigantic interest because Germany has produced a few "winners". (Actually this is probably the case in France and other nations as well but I followed German sports a lot until my move to Canada)

I feel sorry for Ulle and was actually happy to see him move to Switzerland, not only for tax purposes but just to "get away from the crazyness". His big weakness (in my humble opinion) is that he's not necessary the best at dealing with the media. Lance and some Frenchies (no, not Virenque) have become quite excellent at putting a little spin on events and use the media to their advantage. Yes, superstardom (as Lance now will experience in the US) has it's downsides as you basically loose your privacy.

But Ulle has not really a lucky hand at dealing with it. He proclaims:"I'll train a lot, i'll be better next year" Boom - Knee problems... The entire media vultures descents on him like it's judgement day. "Yeah yeah... His knee... That's what he says... Maybe his doping no longer works"...and similar garbage was aired on German TV". And the minute he's back on track and, as you say, probably fit, he's SuperUlle again.

As I said I give him all kudos for the comeback ! Respect ! I would give him a medal for the "Best-Comeback-athlete-that-achieved-a-return-to-(almost)-Glory-despite-having-to-deal-with-a-bunch-of-media-"a-holes"-that-should-crawl-back-under-the-rock-they-came-from" of the year, if I could. But singling out a rather murky, chaotic, hypercharged event in (arguably) the most important moment of the most important stage of the most important cycling race of the year and clearly defining that "he waited for Lance"... and giving him an award for fairness based ONLY on that... I am still not convinced.

Now the fact of the matter is... Did he wait ? In my humble opinion: "Probably". Did he not attack ? "Yes" Did he demonstrate sportsmanship and fairness ? "Yes"... But the guy who in MY opinion deserves the most kudos in the situation is Tyler... He came up to the Ullrich group and "clearly", "unmistakably" told everyone to cool down (because I am not so sure about our Orange guys from Spain or our Italian riders in the group about "not attacking") and to stay put. Did Ulle do that ? I don't know because the TV coverage does not show it.

And to pick a line from Dennis Miller: "Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong!"

If you want to have a laugh check out my letter on www.cyclingnews.com earlier this year.... http://www.cyclingnews.com/letters/?id=2004/feb13letters#How

 

[Beastt]

Originally posted by lischoux

(Snip...)

Now the fact of the matter is... Did he wait ? In my humble opinion: "Probably". Did he not attack ? "Yes" Did he demonstrate sportsmanship and fairness ? "Yes"... But the guy who in MY opinion deserves the most kudos in the situation is Tyler... He came up to the Ullrich group and "clearly", "unmistakably" told everyone to cool down (because I am not so sure about our Orange guys from Spain or our Italian riders in the group about "not attacking") and to stay put. Did Ulle do that ? I don't know because the TV coverage does not show it.

Thank you, lischoux. This is something I've been tempted to point out for some time now. Some seem to equate not attacking with waiting. I would have to disagree. They're not the same thing. Waiting is the act of intentionally slowing down so that a delayed rider can resume the former pace and catch up. Not attacking means maintaining your former pace in which case a delayed rider must increase his pace above what it had been to make up the distance travelled by other riders while he was delayed. Once caught up the delayed rider will naturally be more tired than those riders who simply continued their pace by not attacking.

Did Ullrich attack when Lance fell? No, absolutely not.

Did Ullrich wait when Lance fell? I'd still have to say, "no".

As you state, it was Hamilton that instilled sportsmanship into the lead riders. Ullrich didn't take advantage to the degree that he could have and I respect that decision. But I take exception to the idea that he actually waited for Armstrong.

 

[limerickman]

Originally posted by Beastt
Thank you, lischoux. This is something I've been tempted to point out for some time now. Some seem to equate not attacking with waiting. I would have to disagree. They're not the same thing. Waiting is the act of intentionally slowing down so that a delayed rider can resume the former pace and catch up. Not attacking means maintaining your former pace in which case a delayed rider must increase his pace above what it had been to make up the distance travelled by other riders while he was delayed. Once caught up the delayed rider will naturally be more tired than those riders who simply continued their pace by not attacking.

Did Ullrich attack when Lance fell? No, absolutely not.

Did Ullrich wait when Lance fell? I'd still have to say, "no".

As you state, it was Hamilton that instilled sportsmanship into the lead riders. Ullrich didn't take advantage to the degree that he could have and I respect that decision. But I take exception to the idea that he actually waited for Armstrong.

When I was cycling competitively the term to wait meant - not taking advantage of a mishap when an opponent has an accident.
It didn't mean that we all got off our bikes - or physically stop and wait.
What we would do was not cycle or increase the pace - in fact, we would slightly slow our cadence to allow the rider back.

That's what Ullrich did.
Ok, He did not physically stop his bike and get off.

I noted Sean Kelly's commentary on the realtime coverage on Eurosport.
When LA fell, the commentator started shouting about the fact that LA was down and he (commentaotor) was naturally shocked/excited and screaming what an upset, LA down etc.
Kelly immediately said " and Ullrich has slowed his tempo"
Commentator : "Sean what should Ullrich do - does he try to get away up the road ?"
Sean : "No, it looks like Ullrich isn't trying to gain an advantage-
and this is is the way it should be".
In my opinion, Sean's analysis carries a bit more weight than
one eyed LA/JU supporters !

As stated, there was a 1minute 42 second gap (realtime) between LA's crash and Hamiltons gesture.
As Ullrich has stated in Cycle Sport and as the (realtime film) 1min
42second gap shows, should Ullrich have chosen to go as soon as
LA fell, Hamilton would not have been able to reach JU within 1min
42secs to, allegedly ask the group to slow down.
Hamilton's action - while commendable - was immaterial.

The group did not take advantage of LA's mishap.
Ullrich certainly didn't take advantage of LA's mishap.
If Ullrich is guilty of anything, it's that he did not physically stop
cycling when LA fell.