Did Ullrich wait for Lance on Luz Ardiden?



Oh my god... I just realized what we have become: CRAZY ! We're analyzing this thing more than the Zapruder film was analyzed by Jim Garrisson trying to solve the Kennedy murder. Jeeeeeezus... Me for my part I bid farewell to this topic and I know what I have to do now... Suit up, saddle up, lock and load : Ridin' time ! (Although here in Montreal it just started to snow... Welcome to spring !)
 
Originally posted by lischoux
Ok...Criticism accepted. You're of course entitled to your opinion.But let me add that I respect Ulle and deeply so for his comeback. Nothing to say against it and everything to speak in his favor.

But the main focus of my grudge is that Germany (and I want to single out the German Sports Media in particular) are a bunch of hypocritical puddknockers. If you follow www.radsport-news.com (sorry it's only in German) and magazines such as Der Spiegel (www.spiegel.de) or newspapers such as Bild (www.bild.de) you will see a tendency that is not unlike what Italian media has done for as long as I can remember, namely: They praise you to high heaven if you even give a hint of becoming a "winner", but the moment that you show a glimpse of weakness, you're not even worth the column space in the paper. This is, of course, done to SELL their garbage to the public, who (not only but in this case) in Germany has taken a serious dose of "no-brain" tablets and does not recognize the merrit and value that ALL athletes have (well maybe there are exceptions) even if they're failing at what they do. Cycling is just an example but in Germany you have certain key sports (Ski Jumping, Tennis, F1, etc...) that are scrutinized and become of gigantic interest because Germany has produced a few "winners". (Actually this is probably the case in France and other nations as well but I followed German sports a lot until my move to Canada)

I feel sorry for Ulle and was actually happy to see him move to Switzerland, not only for tax purposes but just to "get away from the crazyness". His big weakness (in my humble opinion) is that he's not necessary the best at dealing with the media. Lance and some Frenchies (no, not Virenque) have become quite excellent at putting a little spin on events and use the media to their advantage. Yes, superstardom (as Lance now will experience in the US) has it's downsides as you basically loose your privacy.

But Ulle has not really a lucky hand at dealing with it. He proclaims:"I'll train a lot, i'll be better next year" Boom - Knee problems... The entire media vultures descents on him like it's judgement day. "Yeah yeah... His knee... That's what he says... Maybe his doping no longer works"...and similar garbage was aired on German TV". And the minute he's back on track and, as you say, probably fit, he's SuperUlle again.

As I said I give him all kudos for the comeback ! Respect ! I would give him a medal for the "Best-Comeback-athlete-that-achieved-a-return-to-(almost)-Glory-despite-having-to-deal-with-a-bunch-of-media-"a-holes"-that-should-crawl-back-under-the-rock-they-came-from" of the year, if I could. But singling out a rather murky, chaotic, hypercharged event in (arguably) the most important moment of the most important stage of the most important cycling race of the year and clearly defining that "he waited for Lance"... and giving him an award for fairness based ONLY on that... I am still not convinced.

Now the fact of the matter is... Did he wait ? In my humble opinion: "Probably". Did he not attack ? "Yes" Did he demonstrate sportsmanship and fairness ? "Yes"... But the guy who in MY opinion deserves the most kudos in the situation is Tyler... He came up to the Ullrich group and "clearly", "unmistakably" told everyone to cool down (because I am not so sure about our Orange guys from Spain or our Italian riders in the group about "not attacking") and to stay put. Did Ulle do that ? I don't know because the TV coverage does not show it.

And to pick a line from Dennis Miller: "Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong!"

If you want to have a laugh check out my letter on www.cyclingnews.com earlier this year.... http://www.cyclingnews.com/letters/?id=2004/feb13letters#How

Ah, thats the Lischoux I have come to admire and respect, I think you are right, we think what we think and if we havnt swayed each others opinions yet, we arnt going to so I to say Ta ta to this debate :D
 
Originally posted by Frihed89
Right. One guy wants to take a leak and they all stop and ****.
It is obvious to any and/or all experienced race caliber riders, that there is no honor in you, nor would any peleton respect you. As far as a leak stop, I agree, or as it was classlessly put, a **** stop, that such a choice/need, merits no respectful slowing, and reunion speed. Is the ignorant suggestion, that a chosen pit stop and/or poor line resulting in a flat, is in any way similar to a fluke occurance such as occured in the particular case in question? In professional cycling, honor is paramount to determine, within the peleton, which are the strongest riders, deserving of the respect of fellow professionals, rather than that of casual viewers with uneducated/unexperienced opinions, like yourself. I suggest spending some time with a number on your back, in a pro setting, racing for your livelyhood, as well as a finish line, with your rep on that same line, before making concise, inaccurate and otherwise foolish observations. Just a suggestion of course, because as I have seen, those who thrust opinion without experience do so, often because that is all they have to forward.
 
Originally posted by jhuskey
I just realized whether Lance wins or loses the next TDF he will eat Crow either way. I know thats bad I just wanted to try to be the first to post it. If someone else beat me to it in another thread. I am sorry for being repetitious
 
Originally posted by Frihed89
Right. One guy wants to take a leak and they all stop and ****.


Originally posted by pace-line
It is obvious to any and/or all experienced race caliber riders, that there is no honor in you, nor would any peleton respect you. As far as a leak stop, I agree, or as it was classlessly put, a **** stop, that such a choice/need, merits no respectful slowing, and reunion speed. Is the ignorant suggestion, that a chosen pit stop and/or poor line resulting in a flat, is in any way similar to a fluke occurance such as occured in the particular case in question? In professional cycling, honor is paramount to determine, within the peleton, which are the strongest riders, deserving of the respect of fellow professionals, rather than that of casual viewers with uneducated/unexperienced opinions, like yourself. I suggest spending some time with a number on your back, in a pro setting, racing for your livelyhood, as well as a finish line, with your rep on that same line, before making concise, inaccurate and otherwise foolish observations. Just a suggestion of course, because as I have seen, those who thrust opinion without experience do so, often because that is all they have to forward.

Every once in a while a post comes along that there is just no arguing against. This is such a post, pace-line. Thank you for saying what was begging to be said.

It seems most of the controversy concerns what is meant by "waiting". Some, such as I, saw Armstrong wait for Ullrich on the Peyresourde. He actually slowed his pace while Ullrich caught up and this was referred to as "waiting" The situation and the strategy were different which has been covered many times in this thread so I'll not go into the details again.

On Luz Ardiden, Ullrich did not attack and by many accounts, simply maintained his former pace which is apparently what the term "waiting" means to many in the context of cycling.

Armstrong fell and Ullrich didn't attack = "waited"

Ullrich fell and Armstrong slowed his pace = waited.

:)

Someone stopped to urinate on the thread, you slowed them, but didn't attack = appreciated

:D
 
Originally posted by Beastt
Every once in a while a post comes along that there is just no arguing against. This is such a post, pace-line. Thank you for saying what was begging to be said.

It seems most of the controversy concerns what is meant by "waiting". Some, such as I, saw Armstrong wait for Ullrich on the Peyresourde. He actually slowed his pace while Ullrich caught up and this was referred to as "waiting" The situation and the strategy were different which has been covered many times in this thread so I'll not go into the details again.

On Luz Ardiden, Ullrich did not attack and by many accounts, simply maintained his former pace which is apparently what the term "waiting" means to many in the context of cycling.

Armstrong fell and Ullrich didn't attack = "waited"

Ullrich fell and Armstrong slowed his pace = waited.

:)

Someone stopped to urinate on the thread, you slowed them, but didn't attack = appreciated

:D
You are welcome, Sir. What I mean to say is, one whom objectively is able to evaluate even there own position, and consider other possible realities, in the face of what ignorant men might suggest to be ebarrassing, defines a gentleman, man of honor, intellect and humility, and says a great deal about you. Perhaps one can tell that I am rather passionate about the subject. Bike racing, that is. By the way, as far as Ulrich waiting, I have little opinion. I respect Lance and Jan, as do most in the peleton, as the talented and honorable sportsman and consumate atheletes they are. My feeling, after having seen our tape several times and checking out the controversy, that Jan, like many others seemed confused and unsure what was going on. I agree that the restraint from attack is in and of itself, in this sport, equal to "waiting", especially considering that any savvy competitor knows full well that Jan could have, had he decided to do so. To put controversy to rest, Tyler's words instructed lessening of pace, do to remounting on grade, rather than as "a repremand" of Jan or any other pro out there. Those immediately behind the incident for obvious reason, had a better vantage point of the occurance, and could react immediately. No Chain
 
I am so tired about this silly discussion
At the end Armstrong won the Tour, isn't?
Of course Ullrich waited, immediately he turned and changed his attitude (he get slower)
This entire discussion came from Armstrong himself, a kind of pre-excuse in case that he will need a pretext for futur events?! When I remember right he mentioned this after the tour? Which was the objectif?
the truth is: Ullrich knows what fairness is and he definetly waited
the difference between the big tour-winners and armstrong is exactly the winner-attitude; did you ever heard about such a polemic regarding merckx,hinault or indurain?
 
Originally posted by traxnseq
I am so tired about this silly discussion
At the end Armstrong won the Tour, isn't?
Of course Ullrich waited, immediately he turned and changed his attitude (he get slower)
This entire discussion came from Armstrong himself, a kind of pre-excuse in case that he will need a pretext for futur events?! When I remember right he mentioned this after the tour? Which was the objectif?
the truth is: Ullrich knows what fairness is and he definetly waited
the difference between the big tour-winners and armstrong is exactly the winner-attitude; did you ever heard about such a polemic regarding merckx,hinault or indurain?
Then why continue it yourself, let it die already. I suggest proof reading, before submitting the threads. They are a bit cryptic. At least get the facts straight, if this discussion is going to continue through you. Armstrong was responding to a press question, and never brought up the subject himself, albeit, a foolish and pointless question for a reporter or anyone who wasn't racing that day to ask. However, in retrospect, the reporter was being a dirt digger looking for a rivalry story or a hate builder, whichever they could get. It tends to sell news, or should I say create news were there was none. That is the nature of the beast.
 
Originally posted by traxnseq
I am so tired about this silly discussion
At the end Armstrong won the Tour, isn't?
Of course Ullrich waited, immediately he turned and changed his attitude (he get slower)
This entire discussion came from Armstrong himself, a kind of pre-excuse in case that he will need a pretext for futur events?! When I remember right he mentioned this after the tour? Which was the objectif?
the truth is: Ullrich knows what fairness is and he definetly waited
the difference between the big tour-winners and armstrong is exactly the winner-attitude; did you ever heard about such a polemic regarding merckx,hinault or indurain?

I'll assume you're working on learning English. Since I'm quite uni-lingual, I can only say, keep up the good work.

As far as Armstrong creating the controversy, you're incorrect. From the moment I saw the stage, what I was watching and what I was hearing from the commentators didn't line up. I spoke to a few friends whom I knew had also watched and they were quick to agree. One of them actually beat me to the point, stating that it didn't look to them as though Ullrich was waiting, at least not in any true sense of the word.

I suppose it's not so odd that, for the most part, Ullrich fans saw Ullrich "wait" and Armstrong fans saw Ullrich, confused, but still out front and going. Seems obvious to me that this is also what Tyler Hamilton saw and he, unlike the others, reacted to it in a proper fashion.

The poll, at this point, (April 13, AM), shows that 41% of the respondants don't think that Ullrich slowed his pace to allow Armstrong to rejoin the group and 50% think he did. It's fairly well divided so as far as being a "silly discussion", I have to disagree. It is, however, perfectly fair to say that Ullrich had the opportunity to attack and didn't.

:)
 
Originally posted by Beastt
I'll assume you're working on learning English. Since I'm quite uni-lingual, I can only say, keep up the good work......


:)


Fortunately you are to teach us english and better cycling observation....
Maybe you should just stop to consider Armstong as a 'saint'; I don't think he is so 'unguilty' in this story; all this did not only came from a reporter who was looking for another story about LA and JU
As far as the race is concerned everyone stopped his rythm when Armstrong falled; of course they didn't get off their bikes but they waited (wait in the sense of non attacking and taking the speed off)
At the end no one (incl Ullrich) took any advantage of this incident.
So why everyone is so crazy about the bad boy Ullrich? Did he attacked and won the stage?
 
Originally posted by traxnseq
Fortunately you are to teach us english and better cycling observation....
Maybe you should just stop to consider Armstong as a 'saint'; I don't think he is so 'unguilty' in this story; all this did not only came from a reporter who was looking for another story about LA and JU
As far as the race is concerned everyone stopped his rythm when Armstrong falled; of course they didn't get off their bikes but they waited (wait in the sense of non attacking and taking the speed off)
At the end no one (incl Ullrich) took any advantage of this incident.
So why everyone is so crazy about the bad boy Ullrich? Did he attacked and won the stage?
Yes, we heard all this already. What does sainthood have to do with professional bicycle racing, and building up of one favorite, by attemting to smear the reputation/sportsmanship of others. That act alone either says something about you or is an unspoken subconscious feeling on your part, regarding Ulrich's chances next year (which, by the way are a discredit to him, which he is undeserving of. He is a quality rider and a great competitor), or, the unlikely possibility, in this case, that he is unable to compete with LA. I believe everyone, including Lance, acknowledges and recognizes JU's ability to blow the race apart, as do most in the peleton . A number of individuals/teams readily compete for the GC hunt, like he and Lance.
 
In this case, I don't think Jan Ullrich should have waited. I think he should have pressed his advantage and gone for the win, as it seems that he did until Tyler came along. I think Ullrich got suckered by Tyler. He shouldn't have listened to him. And I say this as a Lance fan. I just don't like to see this overly coddling behavior toward a champion like Lance. I think the fans want to be assured that the riders are not holding back in order to preserve some kind of etiquette. They would rather see them keep pressuring each other.

I didn't see Lance getting off of his bike at the slick spot in the last time trial as was noted above in someone else's post. And if you really want to be fair, slowing for a rider who has fallen except to avoid another accident is like making team blocking of a rider during a breakaway also an act of unsportsmanship. Yet this is accepted as strategy and team play.

Let's stop hoping for riders to play Mister Nice Guy. Instead, let's see more of that raw courage that it takes to swing back when pushed into the ropes.
 
So what is being debated here, and every time this incident is brought up, is the question about who is the better sport?

Ullrich waited, Armstrong didn't, several times. Pretty obvious isn't it?
 
Originally posted by mitosis
So what is being debated here, and every time this incident is brought up, is the question about who is the better sport?

Ullrich waited, Armstrong didn't, several times. Pretty obvious isn't it?

Ullrich waited? How do you come up with that? Oh, you mean he waited on the ground during the final time trial around that slick corner after having been pressured by his poor chances of a win to take a wild risk there. That is not what I meant. He was waiting, but this was not a voluntary wait. We are talking about voluntary waits.
 
It was on TV, The Tour de France (can't remember which one but before Armstrong won one). Lance had a flat, Ullrich waited.

Lance didn't wait (or even look back to consider the welfare of} Beloki (TdF2003).
 
Originally posted by gntlmn
I didn't see Lance getting off of his bike at the slick spot in the last time trial as was noted above in someone else's post. And if you really want to be fair, slowing for a rider who has fallen except to avoid another accident is like making team blocking of a rider during a breakaway also an act of unsportsmanship. Yet this is accepted as strategy and team play.

These two events are hardly equivocal...

Ullrich took a fall in the final TT because he was willing to take chances to pursue the win. Likewise, the blocking of riders is a competitive tactic voluntarily initiated by riders themselves. On the other hand, Lance was taken down by unfortunate interference from a non-participant. By not attacking, Ullrich and the other riders merely chose to neutralize the influence of outside interference on the outcome of the race.

If other riders choose to take measures such as not to let similar incidents (e.g. non-participant interference) influence the outcome of the entire event, I'm all for it.
 
Originally posted by gntlmn
In this case, I don't think Jan Ullrich should have waited. I think he should have pressed his advantage and gone for the win, as it seems that he did until Tyler came along. I think Ullrich got suckered by Tyler. He shouldn't have listened to him. And I say this as a Lance fan. I just don't like to see this overly coddling behavior toward a champion like Lance. I think the fans want to be assured that the riders are not holding back in order to preserve some kind of etiquette. They would rather see them keep pressuring each other.

I didn't see Lance getting off of his bike at the slick spot in the last time trial as was noted above in someone else's post. And if you really want to be fair, slowing for a rider who has fallen except to avoid another accident is like making team blocking of a rider during a breakaway also an act of unsportsmanship. Yet this is accepted as strategy and team play.

Let's stop hoping for riders to play Mister Nice Guy. Instead, let's see more of that raw courage that it takes to swing back when pushed into the ropes.

You need to read my discussion with Beastt on this issue on page 1 of this thread.

If you take the time to read my message at 23/02/04 at 1.45pm
- you will that my analysis.
Ullrich waited for Armstrong.
TH had NOTHING to do with the peloton slowing for LA.

The revisionism here is startling - read the analysis of the 1min
43 second time gap between Armstrong falling and TH "gestures"
to slow the peloton.