Originally posted by Fixey
I have watched this crash many times and....there was no swing....When LA tangled with the bag it was close in to here. He stuffed up....as for your arguement that Mayo and Ullrich followed...unless you have 3d vision you cannot actually see dead infront of the guy infront of you,Follow the damn wheel infront of you is the general rule.
Originally posted by Morpheus
Before Lance Armstrong brought the subject up, NO ONE had questioned whether Ullrich waited or not. Why did Armstrong feel compelled to come forward and say that? Perhaps he was trying to justify his subsequent attack? My opinion is Ullrich slowed as best as he could - without falling down or stopping. He really didn't have to. Armstrong's crash was his going. He screwed up.
Originally posted by tcklyde
Nonsense. Tyler Hamilton questioned it about two minutes later when he waved Ullrich down.
As for it being Armstrong's fault... come on. Accidents happen for lots of reasons. Can you blame Beloki for his crash last year on the melting tar? What about Ullrich going off the road in 2001? Armstrong waited there, even though Ullrich clearly misjudged or missed the turn.
yes that does show that Ulrich wasn't going to wait up until hamilton raced ahead to slow him down.Originally posted by Beastt
Let me say first that I hope this works. I'm not sure if the image is too big for the page or big enough to show any detail. I provided it so that I could make references to what I see. Secondly, yes.. I'm afraid I'm admitting to what a void of a life I lead in that I had, and took the time to put all of this together.
I'm not sure I buy it completely. What I see at first is Ullrich, understandably confused. Who wasn't? Armstrong seemed to be bowled over by an invisible truck. Obviously I don't know what Ullrich was thinking anymore than anyone else. Only Jan knows for sure. But it looks to me like he's fighting an internal conflict; "I'm so close. I could perhaps take the jersey right here and now. But a gentleman waits." Perhaps that's what I see because I find it hard to believe I would be thinking anything other than that if in a similar situation.
In the first frame here, you can see Ullrich pushing to catch and stay with Mayo and Armstrong before the crash.
In the second frame, Armstrong has become intimate with the road surface.
In frame 3, an understandably confused Ullrich is trying to get his bike back on line and figure out what just happened. I don't have much video of Ullrich between that point and the point just beyond where Lance slips a pedal. The camera is on Armstrong and Mayo for the most part.
Frame 4 is where Armstrong slips out of the pedal.
In frame 5 it looks like Ullrich is sitting up, though it's doubtful he knows that Armstrong has had another problem. He's still working, but hell, it's a steep climb! He certainly looks like he's not going full out.
In frames 7, 8 and 9 he doesn't have the same appearance of holding back. He looks to me very much the way he did just prior to Armstrong going down.
In frame 10 he has swung wide on the corner as Tyler Hamilton came forward.
Then notice in frame 11, (only a second or two later), he has dropped back substantially. Almost as though he felt Tyler's gestures were directed at him. (You can see his front wheel behind the rider to Tyler's right.)
A very good point was made about other riders quickly catching up to Jan after Armstrong fell. This certainly seemed to indicate that he slowed. Limerickman offered a figure of 1-minute between Hamilton and Ullrich at the point where Armstrong fell.
This caused me to go back and take another look, frame by frame. If you look at frame 12 you can see Ullrich inside the celeste-colored oval on the right edge of the image and another rider a short distance behind him denoted with a red oval. That second rider is Tyler Hamilton. I apologize for the tiny image and I know it's nearly impossible to tell anything from it but I have the full image and anyone with the video can double-check for themselves. You can even see Hamilton's open jersey and the gauze wrappings that were supporting his broken clavicle. Hamilton was mere seconds behind Ullrich and as you can see, Mayo has just remounted and is being helped by a spectator, (the spectator is in the blue shirt next to Mayo in orange). Armstrong is, at this point, behind Mayo in the frame and struggling with his chain.
This, of course, doesn't mean that Ullrich didn't slow but it would seem to indicate that the other riders had very little catching up to do to be with Ullrich and obviously, Hamilton felt that the pace being held was inappropriate.
As I said, I have my doubts. I don't think Ullrich charged ahead with everything he had, if he'd done that, he probably would not have wasted any time by bothering to look back as he is doing in frame #6, but frames 7, 8 and 9 don't seem to indicate that his paced was reduced substantially. That, coupled with obvious efforts that Christophe Moreau was putting forth at several points in order to stay with Ullrich give rise to substantial doubt that Ullrich was truly attempting to let Armstrong re-join the group. The video shows Moreau, standing and hammering, mouth-agape to stay with Jan.
(Please note that I believe I kept things in relative order here. Frames #7 and #12 should be the only ones out of chronological order. I wanted 7, 8 & 9 grouped together because I believe they all show Ullrich pressing ahead. Frame #12 was held to the end to address the specific issue of the gap between Ullrich and Hamilton at the time Armstrong fell.)
Morpheus said:tcklyde & beastt: you have got to be kidding me. you guys have got your lance blinders on. he screwed up, he fell, it was his fault. 2001 was very very different. The tour was decided by then; lance was leading ullrich by over 6 minutes! it costs lance nothing to wait then! I guess you guys would have rather ullrich get off his bike and check to make sure that lance was ok? Back in 2001, lance didn't come to a screeching halt either.....folks...the german is the bad guy....WE KNOW....but, please...please........please....try to see the two sides of the argument!!!!!!
Beastt said:As for those who are growing tired of the issue, why keep visiting the thread? If some wish to continue to discuss, debate or haggle over the particulars, that's one of the services provided by the forum so let them/us continue and feel free to focus on other threads which are more to your liking.
I could agree if the incident had occurred in a place where looking back was possible. However, Beloki fell during a steep desperate mountain descent where the utmost concentration was required. He fell just before a sharp turn, and everyone agreed that Armstrong had no option but to avoid him and try to stay upright. I suppose that you could make the case that once he was in the field and out of imminent danger, that he might have looked back, but it's easy for me to sit on my sofa, watch events unfold in slow motion and say he wasn't chivalrous enough, when in fact during real time he probably didn't know if he was going to tumble off into a ditch, hit a rock or boulder, or get his wheel caught in a rut in the field. He certainly was in no position to stop, carry his bike back up the hill, and attend to Beloki, especially when he knew Beloki's teammates and team car would be able to get back to him before he could.kuhlpinkdash said:...if a fellow competitor, who you undoubtedly know takes a fall like that at 50mph (is that true, why isn't he dead...90kph crash???)..i think most people would look back at least to make sure hes not bleeding to death or anything....i mean talk about gentlemen in sport..
kuhlpinkdash said:Ok, first to declare my interests...I agree with a lot of the stuff Limerick has said..especially the time it took tyler to catch up......although i admit Beasst's examination of the issue is very rigourous...
And as for the whole Beloki thing, i guess that deserves its own thread,,,,
although i have to say...i used to like Lance a little more before that...if a fellow competitor, who you undoubtedly know takes a fall like that at 50mph (is that true, why isn't he dead...90kph crash???)..i think most people would look back at least to make sure hes not bleeding to death or anything....i mean talk about gentlemen in sport..
But as to whether Ullrich waited, (and i think the time it took Tyler to catch up shows he did),, there is one point no-one really mentioned:
(...snip)
Aie!! you're quite right..it took ages to read everythingBeastt said:It appears you've read the entire thread which must have taken you a good half a day, at least. You must have quite an interest indeed to have done that.
kuhlpinkdash said:Aie!! you're quite right..it took ages to read everything
Not only that, did anyone notice how a few posts seem to have gone into widescreen?? forced me to scroll for every line (Note:that may have been another thread, 2:30am very confused sleepy by that time)
I understand your point about the Beloki incident..actually i was riding a mountain bike down a slight incline on a gravel road at about 35kph last week and embarrassingly almost stacked it when an old guy didn't get out of the way..think i need to get an air horn perhaps...if only people would turn on their hearing aids..
And with the Tyler slowing them down part...i do seem to remember him taking a while to catch Jan, but your frames seem to prove my memory wrong so i can't really come to a final decision on that,,
The main point I wanted to make was the Ullrich didn't really have to follow Tyler's lead..He could have just kept going and he didn't,, just looks a it like Tyler's actions were unnecessary, Jan (if he truly didn't slow down immediately) could have been appraised of the situation via radio and then slowed concurrently with Tyler's signal..I'm just saying, regardless of Tyler, he had a choice and i feel he made the right one, whatever it cost him later on,,
babylou said:The facts:
After Armstrong fell he caught Ullrich within a short period of time.
The reason:
Ullrich slowed or Armtrong would not have caught up so quickly.
The grey area:
Did Ullrich want to slow? Did Ullrich initiate the group slowing? Was Ullrich happy? Did he vacillate?
The conclusion:
Ullrich's final decision was to allow Armstrong to catch up. All the **** that happened in the middle is moot. Ullrich's final act was gentlemanly.
Beastt said:...or Ullrich's final act was actually Tyler Hamilton reminding Ullrich about the gentleman's unwritten rules of cycling.
We use essential cookies to make this site work, and optional cookies to enhance your experience.