Did Ullrich wait for Lance on Luz Ardiden?



Phonak were also on the front pushing, Mayo caught up with the second group but they were always over a minute down on the peleton.
 
Originally posted by Fixey
I have watched this crash many times and....there was no swing....When LA tangled with the bag it was close in to here. He stuffed up....as for your arguement that Mayo and Ullrich followed...unless you have 3d vision you cannot actually see dead infront of the guy infront of you,Follow the damn wheel infront of you is the general rule.

The bag didn't swing horizontally across the frame but it certainly did swing downward, vertically. Armstrong stated later that he saw the bag but only in time to realize he was going to hit it, not soon enough to actually take any evasive action. Clearly though, the bag was swinging up and down and it caught his brake lever on the down-stroke.
 
Before Lance Armstrong brought the subject up, NO ONE had questioned whether Ullrich waited or not. Why did Armstrong feel compelled to come forward and say that? Perhaps he was trying to justify his subsequent attack? My opinion is Ullrich slowed as best as he could - without falling down or stopping. He really didn't have to. Armstrong's crash was his going. He screwed up.
 
Originally posted by Morpheus
Before Lance Armstrong brought the subject up, NO ONE had questioned whether Ullrich waited or not. Why did Armstrong feel compelled to come forward and say that? Perhaps he was trying to justify his subsequent attack? My opinion is Ullrich slowed as best as he could - without falling down or stopping. He really didn't have to. Armstrong's crash was his going. He screwed up.

Nonsense. Tyler Hamilton questioned it about two minutes later when he waved Ullrich down.

As for it being Armstrong's fault... come on. Accidents happen for lots of reasons. Can you blame Beloki for his crash last year on the melting tar? What about Ullrich going off the road in 2001? Armstrong waited there, even though Ullrich clearly misjudged or missed the turn.
 
Originally posted by tcklyde
Nonsense. Tyler Hamilton questioned it about two minutes later when he waved Ullrich down.

As for it being Armstrong's fault... come on. Accidents happen for lots of reasons. Can you blame Beloki for his crash last year on the melting tar? What about Ullrich going off the road in 2001? Armstrong waited there, even though Ullrich clearly misjudged or missed the turn.

I absolutely agree. I questioned it from the first moment I saw it. The commentators kept saying, "it looks like Ullrich is waiting". But what I saw wasn't waiting. He looked understandably confused but he was pressing on just as he had before the fall until Hamilton offered everyone a gentle reminder. I applaud Lance for being honest about it. Most people with celebrity status would probably keep such thoughts to themselves and go along with the feel-good story. It took guts for Lance to be honest about what he saw when he looked at the tape and it confirmed what I saw.
 
tcklyde & beastt: you have got to be kidding me. you guys have got your lance blinders on. he screwed up, he fell, it was his fault. 2001 was very very different. The tour was decided by then; lance was leading ullrich by over 6 minutes! it costs lance nothing to wait then! I guess you guys would have rather ullrich get off his bike and check to make sure that lance was ok? Back in 2001, lance didn't come to a screeching halt either.....folks...the german is the bad guy....WE KNOW....but, please...please........please....try to see the two sides of the argument!!!!!!
 
Originally posted by Beastt
Let me say first that I hope this works. I'm not sure if the image is too big for the page or big enough to show any detail. I provided it so that I could make references to what I see. Secondly, yes.. I'm afraid I'm admitting to what a void of a life I lead in that I had, and took the time to put all of this together.

I'm not sure I buy it completely. What I see at first is Ullrich, understandably confused. Who wasn't? Armstrong seemed to be bowled over by an invisible truck. Obviously I don't know what Ullrich was thinking anymore than anyone else. Only Jan knows for sure. But it looks to me like he's fighting an internal conflict; "I'm so close. I could perhaps take the jersey right here and now. But a gentleman waits." Perhaps that's what I see because I find it hard to believe I would be thinking anything other than that if in a similar situation.

In the first frame here, you can see Ullrich pushing to catch and stay with Mayo and Armstrong before the crash.

In the second frame, Armstrong has become intimate with the road surface.

In frame 3, an understandably confused Ullrich is trying to get his bike back on line and figure out what just happened. I don't have much video of Ullrich between that point and the point just beyond where Lance slips a pedal. The camera is on Armstrong and Mayo for the most part.

Frame 4 is where Armstrong slips out of the pedal.

In frame 5 it looks like Ullrich is sitting up, though it's doubtful he knows that Armstrong has had another problem. He's still working, but hell, it's a steep climb! He certainly looks like he's not going full out.

In frames 7, 8 and 9 he doesn't have the same appearance of holding back. He looks to me very much the way he did just prior to Armstrong going down.

In frame 10 he has swung wide on the corner as Tyler Hamilton came forward.

Then notice in frame 11, (only a second or two later), he has dropped back substantially. Almost as though he felt Tyler's gestures were directed at him. (You can see his front wheel behind the rider to Tyler's right.)

A very good point was made about other riders quickly catching up to Jan after Armstrong fell. This certainly seemed to indicate that he slowed. Limerickman offered a figure of 1-minute between Hamilton and Ullrich at the point where Armstrong fell.

This caused me to go back and take another look, frame by frame. If you look at frame 12 you can see Ullrich inside the celeste-colored oval on the right edge of the image and another rider a short distance behind him denoted with a red oval. That second rider is Tyler Hamilton. I apologize for the tiny image and I know it's nearly impossible to tell anything from it but I have the full image and anyone with the video can double-check for themselves. You can even see Hamilton's open jersey and the gauze wrappings that were supporting his broken clavicle. Hamilton was mere seconds behind Ullrich and as you can see, Mayo has just remounted and is being helped by a spectator, (the spectator is in the blue shirt next to Mayo in orange). Armstrong is, at this point, behind Mayo in the frame and struggling with his chain.

This, of course, doesn't mean that Ullrich didn't slow but it would seem to indicate that the other riders had very little catching up to do to be with Ullrich and obviously, Hamilton felt that the pace being held was inappropriate.

As I said, I have my doubts. I don't think Ullrich charged ahead with everything he had, if he'd done that, he probably would not have wasted any time by bothering to look back as he is doing in frame #6, but frames 7, 8 and 9 don't seem to indicate that his paced was reduced substantially. That, coupled with obvious efforts that Christophe Moreau was putting forth at several points in order to stay with Ullrich give rise to substantial doubt that Ullrich was truly attempting to let Armstrong re-join the group. The video shows Moreau, standing and hammering, mouth-agape to stay with Jan.

(Please note that I believe I kept things in relative order here. Frames #7 and #12 should be the only ones out of chronological order. I wanted 7, 8 & 9 grouped together because I believe they all show Ullrich pressing ahead. Frame #12 was held to the end to address the specific issue of the gap between Ullrich and Hamilton at the time Armstrong fell.)
yes that does show that Ulrich wasn't going to wait up until hamilton raced ahead to slow him down.
 
If Lance was man enough he should have stood up and said I made a mistake,

He was too close to the crowd, and paid the penalty of a sheer fluke accident

The other part we can argue about until the cows come home, its over, done and dusted, and it made no difference to the result, so put all the conspiracy theories, Al Quada and every other stupid idea that has been said or dreamed about and.........

ISN'T IT TIME WE PUT THIS THREAD TO SLEEP AND WATCH THIS YEARS TOUR.
 
Ullrich waited for LA : earlier I posted a detailed analysis of real time video taken from Eurosport.
Briefly, as Hemplands pointed out, LA was cycling very closey to
the edge of the road and got entangled in a spectators bag
and fell.
As this clip was taken a CSC rider was identified as being behind
Mayo, JU, LA group.
This rider was Tyler Hamilton.

In running the realtime sequence there is a time gap of 1min
43 secs from the time LA fell to when TH started his hand waving.
The CSC figure seen in the still when LA fell is significantly behind
the LA/TH/JU group.
If Jan Ullrich had not slowed when LA fell, there was no way that
TH would have come in to shot within 1min 43 secs.

In Cycle Sport magazine said as much - March 2004 edition -
"if I was did not slow down, TH would not have caught me as quickly as he did".

JU did not attempt to capitalise on LA's misfortune.
This, by definition in cycling terms, means that he slowed down
for LA.
 
Has anyone contributing to this thread noticed that the 2004 Tour de France is well underway.

After 12 months its hard to see anyone changing their mind about *that* event in last years tour.
 
Morpheus said:
tcklyde & beastt: you have got to be kidding me. you guys have got your lance blinders on. he screwed up, he fell, it was his fault. 2001 was very very different. The tour was decided by then; lance was leading ullrich by over 6 minutes! it costs lance nothing to wait then! I guess you guys would have rather ullrich get off his bike and check to make sure that lance was ok? Back in 2001, lance didn't come to a screeching halt either.....folks...the german is the bad guy....WE KNOW....but, please...please........please....try to see the two sides of the argument!!!!!!

You might want to take a look at the results of the pole, Morpheus. Obviously, a lot of people don't see things the way you did since the split is pretty close to 50/50 with a slight bias to the "Ullrich didn't wait" side. As for whether or not it was Armstrong's fault that he fell, when did that even enter into the debate? As others have pointed out, Beloki was going too fast on melting tar and Ullrich over-shot his corner on the Peyresourde. The issue isn't whether the riders made decisions which brought them down, it's about whether long-accepted cycling etiquette was observed or not and by whom.

As for those who are growing tired of the issue, why keep visiting the thread? If some wish to continue to discuss, debate or haggle over the particulars, that's one of the services provided by the forum so let them/us continue and feel free to focus on other threads which are more to your liking.

And to Limerickman; didn't we already determine where Tyler was when Armstrong fell? He was only a few bike lengths behind Ullrich. Ullrich wouldn't necessarily have to have slowed for Tyler to catch up to remind the field about not taking advantage under such circumstances. The evidence is all in the video and the frames provided from that video.
 
Beastt said:
As for those who are growing tired of the issue, why keep visiting the thread? If some wish to continue to discuss, debate or haggle over the particulars, that's one of the services provided by the forum so let them/us continue and feel free to focus on other threads which are more to your liking.

Just hoping that someone will bring something new into the debate instead of arguing about semantics. Nothing in the last day or two.
 
Ok, first to declare my interests...I agree with a lot of the stuff Limerick has said..especially the time it took tyler to catch up......although i admit Beasst's examination of the issue is very rigourous...

And as for the whole Beloki thing, i guess that deserves its own thread,,,,
although i have to say...i used to like Lance a little more before that...if a fellow competitor, who you undoubtedly know takes a fall like that at 50mph (is that true, why isn't he dead...90kph crash???)..i think most people would look back at least to make sure hes not bleeding to death or anything....i mean talk about gentlemen in sport..


But as to whether Ullrich waited, (and i think the time it took Tyler to catch up shows he did),, there is one point no-one really mentioned:

It ended up with Tyler waving for them to slow down which Ullrich did, everyone can agree to that...(regardless of whether he was already slowing down or not)

The point is; Ullrich is senior in the tour to Tyler and a better rider and certainly wouldn't have been taking any instructions from him..he made the decision alone for whatever reason and thats why it was fair play...don't question that Ullrich could have attacked regardless of what Tyler wanted

As well as this, Tyler asking for people to wait means little because he wasn't really challenging either men for the tour, with his broken clavicles he could afford to do the chivalrous thing....all that matters is LA and JU's actions as they were the ones really competing
 
kuhlpinkdash said:
...if a fellow competitor, who you undoubtedly know takes a fall like that at 50mph (is that true, why isn't he dead...90kph crash???)..i think most people would look back at least to make sure hes not bleeding to death or anything....i mean talk about gentlemen in sport..
I could agree if the incident had occurred in a place where looking back was possible. However, Beloki fell during a steep desperate mountain descent where the utmost concentration was required. He fell just before a sharp turn, and everyone agreed that Armstrong had no option but to avoid him and try to stay upright. I suppose that you could make the case that once he was in the field and out of imminent danger, that he might have looked back, but it's easy for me to sit on my sofa, watch events unfold in slow motion and say he wasn't chivalrous enough, when in fact during real time he probably didn't know if he was going to tumble off into a ditch, hit a rock or boulder, or get his wheel caught in a rut in the field. He certainly was in no position to stop, carry his bike back up the hill, and attend to Beloki, especially when he knew Beloki's teammates and team car would be able to get back to him before he could.


The other point is that Armstrong knew that Vinokourov, who was the lone rider ahead, was now a GC threat, and Vino had no way of knowing that Beloki fell and he certainly wasn't going to slow down regardless.

I certainly understand the argument that you don't attack a rider when he's down, and that in normal circumstances it's sporting to check on someone who crashes. But to apply that philosophy to this situation is to presume that Beloki and Armstrong were involved in a two-man duel, when in fact Beloki was taking incredible risks on a dangerous descent to try to catch up to a third rider who was ahead of both he and Armstrong.

Given the circumstances of this particular incident, I think it's unfair to suggest that Armstrong should have thrown away several minutes to Vinokourov (and the other riders who also didn't stop for Beloki) in order to go back up and watch Beloki being attended to by his team. My guess is that if he had done so, some of the same people who are criticizing him for not stopping would be mocking him for doing something so pointless.
 
kuhlpinkdash said:
Ok, first to declare my interests...I agree with a lot of the stuff Limerick has said..especially the time it took tyler to catch up......although i admit Beasst's examination of the issue is very rigourous...

And as for the whole Beloki thing, i guess that deserves its own thread,,,,
although i have to say...i used to like Lance a little more before that...if a fellow competitor, who you undoubtedly know takes a fall like that at 50mph (is that true, why isn't he dead...90kph crash???)..i think most people would look back at least to make sure hes not bleeding to death or anything....i mean talk about gentlemen in sport..


But as to whether Ullrich waited, (and i think the time it took Tyler to catch up shows he did),, there is one point no-one really mentioned:
(...snip)

It appears you've read the entire thread which must have taken you a good half a day, at least. You must have quite an interest indeed to have done that. As far as your point, and the one that limerickman has tried at least twice now concerning how far Tyler was behind Ullrich, how long it took him to catch up to Ullrich, and how this proves that Ullrich slowed his pace, I refer you to the larger of the video frames I posted in the beginning pages of the thread. When Armstrong fell Hamilton was only seconds behind Ullrich despite what was published in a few of the magazines. The proof is in the photo. Hamilton had little in the way of catching up to do. The camera may have distorted the distance to some degree but it's clear in the photo that Hamilton was no more than a few seconds behind Ullrich. Everyone was confused for a moment, including Ullrich. That confusion alone would give Hamilton the time to close that very small gap and he and several other riders were able to do so. But a slowing from Ullrich was unnecessary because the gap was so slight.

As concerns Armstrong's conduct when Beloki fell, (it does have its own thread, by the way), :) Armstrong was himself facing a very difficult situation. He had no time to stop and nowhere to go on the road. His only option was the tiny dirt path leading into and across the field. If Beloki was indeed going that fast when he fell, Armstrong could not have been travelling much slower at the point when he left the road. Ever try riding a dirt field at speed on a road bike? I haven't and I can tell you that I have no intention of trying. If for some reason I'm forced to try it someday, I won't be looking over my shoulder. If Lance had even looked back he probably would not have made it across that field. And what could he do? He's not trained as a medic that I'm aware of. He knew that proper medical attention would reach Beloki as quickly as he could. He could have done nothing more than throw the race away only to stand along side Beloki's team mates amd watch as medical attention was administered by those trained to do so.
 
Beastt said:
It appears you've read the entire thread which must have taken you a good half a day, at least. You must have quite an interest indeed to have done that.
Aie!! you're quite right..it took ages to read everything :eek:
Not only that, did anyone notice how a few posts seem to have gone into widescreen?? forced me to scroll for every line (Note:that may have been another thread, 2:30am very confused sleepy by that time)

I understand your point about the Beloki incident..actually i was riding a mountain bike down a slight incline on a gravel road at about 35kph last week and embarrassingly almost stacked it when an old guy didn't get out of the way..think i need to get an air horn perhaps...if only people would turn on their hearing aids..

And with the Tyler slowing them down part...i do seem to remember him taking a while to catch Jan, but your frames seem to prove my memory wrong so i can't really come to a final decision on that,,

The main point I wanted to make was the Ullrich didn't really have to follow Tyler's lead..He could have just kept going and he didn't,, just looks a it like Tyler's actions were unnecessary, Jan (if he truly didn't slow down immediately) could have been appraised of the situation via radio and then slowed concurrently with Tyler's signal..I'm just saying, regardless of Tyler, he had a choice and i feel he made the right one, whatever it cost him later on,,
 
kuhlpinkdash said:
Aie!! you're quite right..it took ages to read everything :eek:
Not only that, did anyone notice how a few posts seem to have gone into widescreen?? forced me to scroll for every line (Note:that may have been another thread, 2:30am very confused sleepy by that time)

I understand your point about the Beloki incident..actually i was riding a mountain bike down a slight incline on a gravel road at about 35kph last week and embarrassingly almost stacked it when an old guy didn't get out of the way..think i need to get an air horn perhaps...if only people would turn on their hearing aids..

And with the Tyler slowing them down part...i do seem to remember him taking a while to catch Jan, but your frames seem to prove my memory wrong so i can't really come to a final decision on that,,

The main point I wanted to make was the Ullrich didn't really have to follow Tyler's lead..He could have just kept going and he didn't,, just looks a it like Tyler's actions were unnecessary, Jan (if he truly didn't slow down immediately) could have been appraised of the situation via radio and then slowed concurrently with Tyler's signal..I'm just saying, regardless of Tyler, he had a choice and i feel he made the right one, whatever it cost him later on,,

It sounds like we're pretty much in agreement. I've always contended that Ullrich's reaction was pretty much one of confusion. No one, including the race commentators seemed to have any clue as to what caused Armstrong to fall until well after the incident and Jan looked perplexed in trying to figure out what had just happened as well as what to do or not do about it. Certainly he didn't seem to attack. He just kept plugging along at his former pace but, in my opinion, didn't slow either.

I think perhaps Hamilton had a better grasp of the situation whether he had any clue as to what brought Armstrong and subsequently, Mayo to the asphalt or not. Perhaps Tyler simply has a bit more confidence about making such decisions which would have been a bit easier for him anyway, since he wasn't battling directly with Lance for top spot in the tour. Ullrich almost looked relieved that someone offered some direction and didn't appear to have any issues over following Tyler's directive.

I have to wonder, had I been in a similar situation, would I have had the ethical fortitude to allow Lance to catch me? The temptation to put everything into the next few kilometers and hope to take a few more seconds out of Lance had to have been nearly overwhelming. That's as close as Ullrich has been to a chance at a Tour win since Armstrong returned from cancer and it was obvious that he was hungry for another win.

Armstrong has commented many times that, if not for cancer, he'd never have won a single Tour de France. The sad truth for Ullrich is that if the timeline for Lance's cancer had shifted backward a couple of years, Ullrich might never have won the Tour the one time he did. It seems they both owe their wins to cancer in an odd bittersweet sort of way. Lance for the physical and mental changes it brought and Ullrich for the timing.
 
The facts:

After Armstrong fell he caught Ullrich within a short period of time.

The reason:

Ullrich slowed or Armtrong would not have caught up so quickly.

The grey area:

Did Ullrich want to slow? Did Ullrich initiate the group slowing? Was Ullrich happy? Did he vacillate?

The conclusion:

Ullrich's final decision was to allow Armstrong to catch up. All the **** that happened in the middle is moot. Ullrich's final act was gentlemanly.
 
babylou said:
The facts:

After Armstrong fell he caught Ullrich within a short period of time.

The reason:

Ullrich slowed or Armtrong would not have caught up so quickly.

The grey area:

Did Ullrich want to slow? Did Ullrich initiate the group slowing? Was Ullrich happy? Did he vacillate?

The conclusion:

Ullrich's final decision was to allow Armstrong to catch up. All the **** that happened in the middle is moot. Ullrich's final act was gentlemanly.

...or Ullrich's final act was actually Tyler Hamilton reminding Ullrich about the gentleman's unwritten rules of cycling.
 
Beastt said:
...or Ullrich's final act was actually Tyler Hamilton reminding Ullrich about the gentleman's unwritten rules of cycling.

Is this old subject still getting discussed ?

If you all read my analysis taken from real time video - 1min 40 odd seconds
elapsed between LA's fall and Hamiltons gesticulations.
I have provided a second by second analysis of this earlier in the thread and it is clear that JU did not accelerate when LA fell.
This by definition in cycling means that he slowed (he did not take advantage
of LA's crash).

If you look at my posting where I analysed the real time video - I have provided a details breakdown of the Eurosport footage showing that Ullrich
did not acclerate during the 1min 40sec time frame.