Diet guru Atkins qualified as obese



In article <[email protected]>,
Michel Boucher <[email protected]> wrote:

> http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10/atkins.widow.ap/index.html
>
> "Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.

You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in my nutrition class today. Many
of my students are nursing majors. First off, I pointed out that the person who released Atkins's
NYC Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and patient confidentiality.
Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body weight and pondered how someone could gain over 60
pounds in 8 days. The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day to do so, and
his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.

Cindy

--
C.J. Fuller

Delete the obvious to email me
 
In article <[email protected]>, Michel Boucher
<[email protected]> wrote:

> http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10/atkins.widow.ap/index.html

We've been going round and round on this in another newsgroup. An extreme vegetarian group has been
spreading this untrue story. Atkins died from a fall. His organs failed, causing fluid retention.
His excess weight was all due to fluid.

Perhaps others have a different idea what "obese" means, but someone who puts on 60 pounds in a week
is not obese, they are deadly sick.

--
Dan Abel Sonoma State University AIS [email protected]
 
On 11 Feb 2004 22:58:27 GMT, Michel Boucher <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10/atkins.widow.ap/index.html
>
>"Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
>

I'm no fan of his diet, but a colleague did see Atkins at a meeting in 1999 and reports that he was
not overweight at that time. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in attributing some
of the "obesity" to other health problems. Unfortunately in refusing an autopsy, the family left
themselves open to speculation. Unless, of course, there was something (diet-related?) that they
wanted to hide.

Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!
 
Curly Sue wrote:

> Unless, of course, there was something (diet-related?) that they wanted to hide.

Like a highly refined Cheeze-It sitting in his stomach... Now *that* could be devastating...

~john
 
Dan Abel wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Michel Boucher
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10/atkins.widow.ap/index.html
>
> We've been going round and round on this in another newsgroup. An extreme vegetarian group has
> been spreading this untrue story. Atkins died from a fall. His organs failed, causing fluid
> retention. His excess weight was all due to fluid.
>
> Perhaps others have a different idea what "obese" means, but someone who puts on 60 pounds in a
> week is not obese, they are deadly sick.

Some pretty shabby stuff going on with all that "news" coverage.

"The late Dr. Robert Atkins is being smeared for his alleged obesity at the time of his death, by a
phony doctors organization that has been exposed as a front group for People for the Ethical
Treatment of Animals (PETA) and has been censured by the American Medical Association (AMA)."
<http://www.consumerfreedom.com/release_detail.cfm?PR_ID=48>

Atkins's cardiac problem had no medical or physiological correlation with his (or any) diet.

From <http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/4/25-466719.html>

"We have been treating this condition, cardiomyopathy, for almost two years," explains Patrick
Fratellone MD, Dr. Atkins' personal physician and cardiologist, "and during the course of
diagnosis, we discovered that Dr. Atkins' coronary arteries were normal as diagnosed by an
angiogram performed at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital on the upper west side of New York City in
April of 2001. Clearly, his own nutritional protocols have left him, at the age of 71, with an
extraordinarily healthy cardiovascular system. Unfortunately, the infection-related cardiomyopathy
is totally another matter."

From Gannett <http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=106&sid=169199>

"Millions of people who follow Atkins' low-carb, meat-lovers' diet were caught off guard by a report
Tuesday in The Wall Street Journal that the cardiologist weighed 258 at the time of his death and
had heart disease. The new document shows that the 6-foot-tall Atkins weighed 195 on admission to
the hospital after a fall on April 8, 2003. He went into a coma and died April 17 at age 72."

Pastorio
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
Cindy Fuller <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Michel Boucher
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10/atkins.widow.ap/index.html
> >
> > "Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
>
> You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in my nutrition class today.
> Many of my students are nursing majors. First off, I pointed out that the person who released
> Atkins's NYC Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and patient
> confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body weight and pondered how someone could
> gain over 60 pounds in 8 days. The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day
> to do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
>
> Cindy

Depends on the IV rate...... and docs seem to be fond of a lot of IV fluids in patients who are
dying. :p Average IV rate is 60 to 80 mls per hour and I've seen it go higher.

If his blood pressure was low, (which is likely since the article mentioned CHF), it would not
surprise me if he had renal insufficiency.

I've seen head injured patients swell up like ballons with edema.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<Katra at centurytel dot net>,,<
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=katra
 
Curly Sue wrote:

> On 11 Feb 2004 22:58:27 GMT, Michel Boucher <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10/atkins.widow.ap/index.html
>>
>>"Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
>>
>
>
> I'm no fan of his diet, but a colleague did see Atkins at a meeting in 1999 and reports that he
> was not overweight at that time. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in attributing
> some of the "obesity" to other health problems. Unfortunately in refusing an autopsy, the family
> left themselves open to speculation. Unless, of course, there was something (diet-related?) that
> they wanted to hide.
>
> Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

Careful, Sue, there's a conspiracy right there behind you and its gonna get you! Keep your eyes
oooooopen, wide open, for those black helicopters when you drive home late at night.

jim
 
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:38:58 GMT, Cindy Fuller
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Michel Boucher
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10/atkins.widow.ap/index.html
>>
>> "Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
>
>You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in my nutrition class today.
>Many of my students are nursing majors. First off, I pointed out that the person who released
>Atkins's NYC Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and patient
>confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body weight and pondered how someone could
>gain over 60 pounds in 8 days. The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day
>to do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
>

I asked an expert today who said that it's certainly conceivable that he could have gained 20 lb
from fluids in that time period. He suggested that the remainder of Atkin's excess weight could be
explained if he was taking steroids over the previous few years for his heart problem.

The family's report of him gaining 60 lb in 8 days is unlikely, but OTOH, it's unfair of that other
group and/or the media to attribute his excess weight to his Diet or suggest that his diet would
have kept him slim with the particular health problems he had.

Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!
 
Peter Aitken wrote:
> "Cindy Fuller" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:cjfullerSPAMORAMA-
> [email protected]...
>
>>In article <[email protected]>, Michel Boucher
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10/atkins.widow.ap/index.html
>>>
>>>"Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
>>
>>You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in my nutrition class today.
>>Many of my students are nursing majors. First off, I pointed out that the person who released
>>Atkins's NYC Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and patient
>>confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body weight and pondered how someone could
>>gain over 60 pounds in 8 days. The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day
>>to do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
>>
>>Cindy
>>
>
>
> Another point you might have taught is that Dr. Atkins being obese at the time of his death.
> assuming it is true, has absolutely no relevance to the validity of the diet he championed.
>
>

Hmmm, I wonder is she has her own ax to grind. The weight was due to his medical condition, if I
read correctly. But then, did not the Grape Nuts' man, Ewell Gibbons, also die from heart problems?

jim
 
Katra wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>, Cindy Fuller
> <[email protected]> wrote:

> > You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in my nutrition class today.
> > Many of my students are nursing majors. First off, I pointed out that the person who released
> > Atkins's NYC Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and patient
> > confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body weight and pondered how someone
> > could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days. The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of
> > fluid a day to do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.

> Depends on the IV rate...... and docs seem to be fond of a lot of IV fluids in patients who are
> dying. :p Average IV rate is 60 to 80 mls per hour and I've seen it go higher.
>
> If his blood pressure was low, (which is likely since the article mentioned CHF), it would not
> surprise me if he had renal insufficiency.
>
> I've seen head injured patients swell up like ballons with edema.

I'm not sure where I'm coming in on this subject, I haven't been following along. (laugh) I'm
getting to the point were the words Atkins and carbs make my eyes glaze over.

At any rate, I kept hearing this thing about Atkins being obese and I wondered, am I completely
out of touch? Every picture I saw of him, he looked okay to me. Not exactly gaunt, but not obese.
Then I heard about him being admitted at 195 and 260 (whatever) when he died. Oh, that makes
sense. It's not fat.

Well, this morning on Good Morning America (I think), they had an (Atkins advocate?) doctor who
mentioned this report. Whoever made the report insisted it couldn't be fluid retention. I thought,
he was admitted at 195 and died at 260. Are you trying to tell me that someone on life support
gained that much weight from hospital food????????????????? Yeah, I know he must have been chowing
down on full sugar Jello. Come on!

nancy
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Katra <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Cindy Fuller
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>, Michel Boucher <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10/atkins.widow.ap/index.html
> > >
> > > "Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
> >
> > You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in my nutrition class today.
> > Many of my students are nursing majors. First off, I pointed out that the person who released
> > Atkins's NYC Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and patient
> > confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body weight and pondered how someone
> > could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days. The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of
> > fluid a day to do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
> >
> > Cindy
>
> Depends on the IV rate...... and docs seem to be fond of a lot of IV fluids in patients who are
> dying. :p Average IV rate is 60 to 80 mls per hour and I've seen it go higher.
>
> If his blood pressure was low, (which is likely since the article mentioned CHF), it would not
> surprise me if he had renal insufficiency.
>
> I've seen head injured patients swell up like ballons with edema.

But for someone with documented congestive heart failure, which Atkins supposedly had because of the
cardiomyopathy, a fluid restriction is usually warranted.

Cindy

--
C.J. Fuller

Delete the obvious to email me
 
"Curly Sue" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:38:58 GMT, Cindy Fuller <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>, Michel Boucher
> ><[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10/atkins.widow.ap/index.html
> >>
> >> "Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
> >
> >You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in my nutrition class today.
> >Many of my students are nursing majors. First off, I pointed out that the person who released
> >Atkins's NYC Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and patient
> >confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body weight and pondered how someone
> >could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days. The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of
> >fluid a day to do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
> >
>
> I asked an expert today who said that it's certainly conceivable that he could have gained 20 lb
> from fluids in that time period. He suggested that the remainder of Atkin's excess weight could be
> explained if he was taking steroids over the previous few years for his heart problem.
>
> The family's report of him gaining 60 lb in 8 days is unlikely, but OTOH, it's unfair of that
> other group and/or the media to attribute his excess weight to his Diet or suggest that his diet
> would have kept him slim with the particular health problems he had.
>
> Sue(tm)

Exactly. Why people are so obsessed with Dr. Atkins's weight is beyond me. Well, no, it's not really
beyond me - it is yet another example of the terminal stupidity that is so common on this newsgroup.
Even if he did weigh 260 (or whatever) pounds, so what? Maybe he would have weighed 400 if not for
the diet. Maybe his willpower failed him and he went off the diet. Think, people!

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the **** from my email address before using.
 
Curly Sue wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:38:58 GMT, Cindy Fuller <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>In article <[email protected]>, Michel Boucher
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10/atkins.widow.ap/index.html
>>>
>>>"Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
>>
>>You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in my nutrition class today.
>>Many of my students are nursing majors. First off, I pointed out that the person who released
>>Atkins's NYC Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and patient
>>confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body weight and pondered how someone could
>>gain over 60 pounds in 8 days. The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of fluid a day
>>to do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.

And that's pretty much how it happened. A quart of water weighs just at 2.2 pounds. Considering the
concentrations of nutrients and the fact of his taking prednisone and his organs going into
shutdown, it's not surprising given that they were taking extreme measures.

> I asked an expert today who said that it's certainly conceivable that he could have gained 20 lb
> from fluids in that time period. He suggested that the remainder of Atkin's excess weight could be
> explained if he was taking steroids over the previous few years for his heart problem.
>
> The family's report of him gaining 60 lb in 8 days

It wasn't the family's report, it's the hospitals. They're the ones who said he weighed 195 when he
was admitted and weighed 258 when he died. It's edema,,plain adn simple

Bob

> is unlikely, but OTOH, it's unfair of that other group and/or the media to attribute his excess
> weight to his Diet or suggest that his diet would have kept him slim with the particular health
> problems he had.
>
> Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!
 
"JimLane" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Peter Aitken wrote:
> > "Cindy Fuller" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:cjfullerSPAMORAMA-
> > [email protected]...
> >
> >>In article <[email protected]>, Michel Boucher <[email protected]>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10/atkins.widow.ap/index.html
> >>>
> >>>"Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
> >>
> >>You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in my nutrition class today.
> >>Many of my students are nursing majors. First off, I pointed out that the person who released
> >>Atkins's NYC Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and patient
> >>confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body weight and pondered how someone
> >>could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days. The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of
> >>fluid a day to do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
> >>
> >>Cindy
> >>
> >
> >
> > Another point you might have taught is that Dr. Atkins being obese at
the
> > time of his death. assuming it is true, has absolutely no relevance to
the
> > validity of the diet he championed.
> >
> >
>
> Hmmm, I wonder is she has her own ax to grind. The weight was due to his medical condition, if I
> read correctly. But then, did not the Grape Nuts' man, Ewell Gibbons, also die from heart
> problems?
>
>

Dr. Atkins did not die from heart problems but from a fall. He had a heart problem caused by a viral
infection.

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the **** from my email address before using.
 
"Nancy Young" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Katra wrote:
> >
> > In article <[email protected]>, Cindy Fuller
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in my nutrition class
> > > today. Many of my students are nursing majors. First off, I pointed out that the person who
> > > released Atkins's NYC Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and
> > > patient confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body weight and pondered how
> > > someone could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days. The doctors would have had to pump in about 4
> > > liters of fluid a day to do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning
> > > completely.
>
> > Depends on the IV rate...... and docs seem to be fond of a lot of IV fluids in patients who are
> > dying. :p Average IV rate is 60 to 80 mls per hour and I've seen it go higher.
> >
> > If his blood pressure was low, (which is likely since the article mentioned CHF), it would not
> > surprise me if he had renal insufficiency.
> >
> > I've seen head injured patients swell up like ballons with edema.
>
> I'm not sure where I'm coming in on this subject, I haven't been following along. (laugh) I'm
> getting to the point were the words Atkins and carbs make my eyes glaze over.
>
> At any rate, I kept hearing this thing about Atkins being obese and I wondered, am I completely
> out of touch? Every picture I saw of him, he looked okay to me. Not exactly gaunt, but not obese.
> Then I heard about him being admitted at 195 and 260 (whatever) when he died. Oh, that makes
> sense. It's not fat.
>
> Well, this morning on Good Morning America (I think), they had an (Atkins advocate?) doctor who
> mentioned this report. Whoever made the report insisted it couldn't be fluid retention. I thought,
> he was admitted at 195 and died at 260. Are you trying to tell me that someone on life support
> gained that much weight from hospital food????????????????? Yeah, I know he must have been chowing
> down on full sugar Jello. Come on!
>
> nancy

Not from food but from IV fluids - that's the claim at least.

--
Peter Aitken

Remove the **** from my email address before using.
 
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:18:04 -0500, Nancy Young
<[email protected]> wrote:

>At any rate, I kept hearing this thing about Atkins being obese and I wondered, am I completely
>out of touch? Every picture I saw of him, he looked okay to me. Not exactly gaunt, but not obese.
>Then I heard about him being admitted at 195 and 260 (whatever) when he died. Oh, that makes
>sense. It's not fat.
>
>Well, this morning on Good Morning America (I think), they had an (Atkins advocate?) doctor who
>mentioned this report. Whoever made the report insisted it couldn't be fluid retention. I thought,
>he was admitted at 195 and died at 260. Are you trying to tell me that someone on life support
>gained that much weight from hospital food????????????????? Yeah, I know he must have been chowing
>down on full sugar Jello. Come on!
>

He was in a coma - of course, being in a coma probably helps a patient can tolerate hospital food.
(I know, I know...IV/tube only)

Boron
 
Peter Aitken wrote:

> Exactly. Why people are so obsessed with Dr. Atkins's weight is beyond me. Well, no, it's not
> really beyond me - it is yet another example of the terminal stupidity that is so common on this
> newsgroup. Even if he did weigh 260 (or whatever) pounds, so what? Maybe he would have weighed 400
> if not for the diet. Maybe his willpower failed him and he went off the diet. Think, people!

Yeah, while he was in a coma, he did carb loading for his next marathon. THINK, PETER! He went into
the hospital at 195. Checked out much larger. All the while IN A COMA.

nancy
 
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:26:59 -0500, Bob <[email protected]> wrote:

>Curly Sue wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:38:58 GMT, Cindy Fuller <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>, Michel Boucher
>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/02/10/atkins.widow.ap/index.html
>>>>
>>>>"Curiouser and curiouser", said Alice.
>>>
>>>You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in my nutrition class today.
>>>Many of my students are nursing majors. First off, I pointed out that the person who released
>>>Atkins's NYC Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and patient
>>>confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body weight and pondered how someone
>>>could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days. The doctors would have had to pump in about 4 liters of
>>>fluid a day to do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning completely.
>
>And that's pretty much how it happened. A quart of water weighs just at 2.2 pounds. Considering the
>concentrations of nutrients and the fact of his taking prednisone and his organs going into
>shutdown, it's not surprising given that they were taking extreme measures.
>
>> I asked an expert today who said that it's certainly conceivable that he could have gained 20 lb
>> from fluids in that time period. He suggested that the remainder of Atkin's excess weight could
>> be explained if he was taking steroids over the previous few years for his heart problem.
>>
>> The family's report of him gaining 60 lb in 8 days
>
>It wasn't the family's report, it's the hospitals. They're the ones who said he weighed 195 when he
>was admitted and weighed 258 when he died. It's edema,,plain adn simple
>
>Bob

I thought some wacko group managed to get ahold of the records, made a statement, and the family
rebutted the contention that he was obese by claiming the weight was edema. I haven't heard that the
hospital "weighed in" on the issue.

Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Nancy Young <[email protected]> wrote:

> Katra wrote:
> >
> > In article <[email protected]>, Cindy Fuller
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > You've got that right, Michel. I used this as a "teachable moment" in my nutrition class
> > > today. Many of my students are nursing majors. First off, I pointed out that the person who
> > > released Atkins's NYC Medical Examiner report was in violation of professional ethics and
> > > patient confidentiality. Then we did the math on Atkins's ideal body weight and pondered how
> > > someone could gain over 60 pounds in 8 days. The doctors would have had to pump in about 4
> > > liters of fluid a day to do so, and his kidneys would have had to cease functioning
> > > completely.
>
> > Depends on the IV rate...... and docs seem to be fond of a lot of IV fluids in patients who are
> > dying. :p Average IV rate is 60 to 80 mls per hour and I've seen it go higher.
> >
> > If his blood pressure was low, (which is likely since the article mentioned CHF), it would not
> > surprise me if he had renal insufficiency.
> >
> > I've seen head injured patients swell up like ballons with edema.
>
> I'm not sure where I'm coming in on this subject, I haven't been following along. (laugh) I'm
> getting to the point were the words Atkins and carbs make my eyes glaze over.
>
> At any rate, I kept hearing this thing about Atkins being obese and I wondered, am I completely
> out of touch? Every picture I saw of him, he looked okay to me. Not exactly gaunt, but not obese.
> Then I heard about him being admitted at 195 and 260 (whatever) when he died. Oh, that makes
> sense. It's not fat.
>
> Well, this morning on Good Morning America (I think), they had an (Atkins advocate?) doctor who
> mentioned this report. Whoever made the report insisted it couldn't be fluid retention. I thought,
> he was admitted at 195 and died at 260. Are you trying to tell me that someone on life support
> gained that much weight from hospital food????????????????? Yeah, I know he must have been chowing
> down on full sugar Jello. Come on!
>
> nancy

He was in a coma... How could he "eat"?

If someones says it was not purely fluid gain, they are full of feces and anti-low carb. :p

What a bunch of ass holes!

K.

--
Sprout the Mung Bean to reply...

>,,<Cat's Haven Hobby Farm>,,<Katra at centurytel dot net>,,<
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0&userid=katra
 
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