Different spokes for LH and RH side of a rear wheel?

[Pete Biggs]

Qui Si Parla Campagnolo wrote:
> daveornee wrote:
>> If your rear wheel has 100 kgf tension on the right spokes and 60 kgf
>> tension on the left spokes to bring it into correct centering, then
>> having thinner spokes on the left will decrease the likelyhood of
>> them going slack under dynamic load conditions. Thinner spokes
>> increase the load effected area and bring more spokes into the
>> action of handling dynamic loads presented to a wheel.
>> I understand that Peter and I disagree on this point, but I hold this
>> position.
>
> I DON"T disagree I have pointed out in the past that when you make
> these staements, you imply it's NOT POSSIBLE to make a durable wheel
> using same guage spokes, crossed 3 times, on both sides of a rear
> wheel.
>
> I have pointed out that of the 2000 or so wheels I have built in the
> last 5 years, about 1/2 of them rears, NONE have mixed, thinner spokes
> on the left and they do not come outta true, left spokes don't break
> or get loose. Mixed, thinner spokes on the left are not necessary on
> the well built wheel using proper components for the job.

Even if that's true, thinner spokes on the left make the wheel slightly
lighter. I've done it for that reason, with the vague hope that it might
help in other ways as well. Why use thicker spokes than needed if thinner
ones are affordable?

~PB

 

[[email protected]]

12 gauge spokes are available for the drive side.this is not in
accordance with engineering theory describing the wonders of alpine
touring 3 spokes as torque rods for your wheel system but more in the
BRIDGE or CATAPILLAR mode of thought.
in hd touring, i haven't gone to 12's yet butt replace the drive side
14 DT yearly at about 5-6000 miles with the spoke holes and hub
carefully lubed with teflon wax during and after installation.this
keeps my teeth from getting worn down.

 

[daveornee]

daveornee wrote:
> If your rear wheel has 100 kgf tension on the right spokes and 60 kgf
> tension on the left spokes to bring it into correct centering, then
> having thinner spokes on the left will decrease the likelyhood of them
> going slack under dynamic load conditions. Thinner spokes increase the
> load effected area and bring more spokes into the action of handling
> dynamic loads presented to a wheel.
> I understand that Peter and I disagree on this point, but I hold this
> position.

I DON"T disagree I have pointed out in the past that when you make these
staements, you imply it's NOT POSSIBLE to make a durable wheel using
same guage spokes, crossed 3 times, on both sides of a rear wheel.

I have pointed out that of the 2000 or so wheels I have built in the
last 5 years, about 1/2 of them rears, NONE have mixed, thinner spokes
on the left and they do not come outta true, left spokes don't break or
get loose. Mixed, thinner spokes on the left are not necessary on the
well built wheel using proper components for the job.


> Another way to address the situation is to choose another rim, like
> Velocity Synergy that has an Off Center Spoke bed. With the
> asymetrical Synergy rim you can attain spoke support angles right to
> left that are closer to each other, therefore more closely matching
> spoke tensions right to left.
> I have used a combination of thinner left spokes (Sapim Laser) and
> asymetric spoke bed rims like Aerohead OC and Synergy OC with very good
> results.
> David Ornee, Western Springs, IL
>
>

And I have not also with great results of hu8ndreds of wheels as I have
mentioned. Wheels built 'conventionally' even with 9/10s freehubs and
right side flanges really close to the centerline of the hub have been
around for decades and many wheels have been built using 14/15 spokes
w/o any problems.

Please find the quote where I wrote where I implied "that IT IS NOT POSSIBLE" to make a durable wheel using same guage spokes.
My points are still the same as I orginally stated.
David Ornee, Western Springs, IL

 

[Tom Sherman]

G. Daniels wrote:

> 12 gauge spokes are available for the drive side.this is not in
> accordance with engineering theory describing the wonders of alpine
> touring 3 spokes as torque rods for your wheel system but more in the
> BRIDGE or CATAPILLAR mode of thought.
> in hd touring, i haven't gone to 12's yet butt replace the drive side
> 14 DT yearly at about 5-6000 miles with the spoke holes and hub
> carefully lubed with teflon wax during and after installation.this
> keeps my teeth from getting worn down.

Gene,

I suggest using a spoke wrench instead of your teeth when tensioning
spokes.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth (Illinois)

 

[Qui Si Parla Campagnolo]

Pete Biggs wrote:

>
> Even if that's true, thinner spokes on the left make the wheel slightly
> lighter. I've done it for that reason, with the vague hope that it might
> help in other ways as well. Why use thicker spokes than needed if thinner
> ones are affordable?
>
> ~PB
>
>

Fine and dandy altho the 'weight' savings is in the power bar weight
range. Not worth the extra $, IMO.

Why use thicker spokes? Cuz it makes the wheel more durable over a wider
range of riding conditions. WHY make the wheel 'just strong enough' for
90% of the riding? Why not 105% of the riding?

 

[Qui Si Parla Campagnolo]

daveornee wrote:
>
> Please find the quote where I wrote where I implied "that IT IS NOT
> POSSIBLE" to make a durable wheel using same guage spokes.
> My points are still the same as I orginally stated.
> David Ornee, Western Springs, IL
>
>

'Implication' implys to me that you make the stand that the only way to
make a reliable wheel is to use thinner sppkes on the left. Great, use
them, I see no need.

 

[Pete Biggs]

Qui Si Parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Why use thicker spokes? Cuz it makes the wheel more durable over a
> wider range of riding conditions. WHY make the wheel 'just strong
> enough' for 90% of the riding? Why not 105% of the riding?

I agree about the 105% but are DT Competition any more durable than Sapim
Laser when used on the rear left? The ends are 2.0 mm in both cases.

~PB

 

[daveornee]

Pete Biggs wrote:

>
> Even if that's true, thinner spokes on the left make the wheel slightly
> lighter. I've done it for that reason, with the vague hope that it might
> help in other ways as well. Why use thicker spokes than needed if thinner
> ones are affordable?
>
> ~PB
>
>

Fine and dandy altho the 'weight' savings is in the power bar weight
range. Not worth the extra $, IMO.

Why use thicker spokes? Cuz it makes the wheel more durable over a wider
range of riding conditions. WHY make the wheel 'just strong enough' for
90% of the riding? Why not 105% of the riding?

Thicker spokes make the wheel less durable over a wider range of riding conditions.
Thinner spokes have more than 20 times more strength than needed in a properly built wheel.
Thinner spokes stretch more and therefore go through less of their total range of elastic deformation during dynamic load cycles presented to a wheel.
Asymetric spoke beds (Off center spokes) provide for the left spokes in a rear wheel to share in more of the load bearing. This results in spokes on both sides going through less of their total range of elastic deformation.
Both effects make for a more durable rear wheel.