Difficulty reaching target heart rate

[TiMan]

Lately I am having a hard time reaching my target heart rate for Lactate threshold training and intervals. My effort is high but my heart rate is lower than normal....whats up with this? It seems that my maximum heart rate has dropped making for a lower heart rate at all intensity levels.

Thanx

 

[zaskar]

Originally posted by TiMan
Lately I am having a hard time reaching my target heart rate for Lactate threshold training and intervals. My effort is high but my heart rate is lower than normal....whats up with this? It seems that my maximum heart rate has dropped making for a lower heart rate at all intensity levels.

Thanx

i started riding harder& longer the last 3 months been riding
4 yrs. 3 months ago my max was 183 now i cant get over 178.
so as you get fitter your max will probaly drop a little.
if thats not your case you may be over training.

 

[TiMan]

I don't actually think my max heart rate has dropped...I was just saying that to make a point. In fact I don't think ones max heart rate actually drops as one gets super fit, although I could be wrong here.

The issue is high preceived effort and low heart rate.

I have to really work to get my heart rate 160-162 (LT intensity for me). That same effort a while back had my heart rate about 170. I can't seems to get my heart rate to 170(interval rate for me) unless I almost kill myself.

The only thing I can attribute this to is perhaps over training but damn it I am always so careful in this regard.

 

[zaskar]

Originally posted by TiMan
I don't actually think my max heart rate has dropped...I was just saying that to make a point. In fact I don't think ones max heart rate actually drops as one gets super fit, although I could be wrong here.

The issue is high preceived effort and low heart rate.

I have to really work to get my heart rate 160-162 (LT intensity for me). That same effort a while back had my heart rate about 170. I can't seems to get my heart rate to 170(interval rate for me) unless I almost kill myself.

The only thing I can attribute this to is perhaps over training but damn it I am always so careful in this regard.

has your avg speeds on your routine rides gone down?
do you fatigue quicker? has your diet changed, drinking
anything differant? im sure someone else here will
be able to guide you to a solution if none of the above
is a possible reason.

 

[XLR8R Man]

Usually this would be from lack of sleep and or over training. Do you use a training log?

 

[TiMan]

My average speed has not gone down and in fact it has gone up a bit.
I have a very good diet and have not changed it lately etc.
I don't keep a log. My sleep habits are unchanged.

 

[zaskar]

Originally posted by TiMan
My average speed has not gone down and in fact it has gone up a bit.
I have a very good diet and have not changed it lately etc.
I don't keep a log. My sleep habits are unchanged.

doesnt sound like anything to be concerned about then,
sounds like perhaps your fitter, take a few days off
the bike and relax and see if that does it.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by TiMan
Lately I am having a hard time reaching my target heart rate for Lactate threshold training and intervals. My effort is high but my heart rate is lower than normal....whats up with this? It seems that my maximum heart rate has dropped making for a lower heart rate at all intensity levels.

Thanx

Assuming that by "lactate threshold training" you actually mean time trial effort, then the HR that is associated with time trial effort/power can vary quite significantly on various factors (e.g., acute fatigue, chronic fatigue, anxiety, environmental conditions, cadence, topography, caffeine ingestion, etc).

For instance when i complete my TT power sessions, my HR can vary by up to 20 b/min, even though the power that i'm producing is the same. Thus, some weeks, my average HR during the interval is ~ 165 b/min and other weeks is ~ 185 b/min.

At virtually all intensities, it's preferable to prescribe training by power output as opposed to HR. This is due to variations in HR at a given workload (power output).

Perceived exertion is also an excellent measure, and you describe that your effort is high, and i assume that it feels the same as when your HR is 'normal'? This suggests that you're training at the correct effort, but your HR is depressed.

If your power is the same or higher (you won't know if you don't have a power meter), and your HR has changed then this is nothing to worry about. On the other, if your power and HR is depressed then this suggests that initially you are too fatigued and need some recovery. In fact, even if only your power is depressed then you need to ease up. One of the signs of overtraining is a decrease in performance.

As you get fitter your HR max *decreases*, but in a *recovered* state your average HR at TT power increases or stays the same.

Lactate threshold is actually quite a low intensity, usually sustainable for up to several plus hours in trained cyclists. It's usually determined as the workload (power output in cyclists, speed in runners) that elicits a 1mmol/L increase in lactate over exercise baseline levels (which would often be around 2 mmol/L) or at a fixed level of 2.5 mmol/L.

The effort that is associated with say a 1-hr TT is usually about ~20 to 25% higher than LT.

 

[TiMan]

Originally posted by ricstern
Assuming that by "lactate threshold training" you actually mean time trial effort, then the HR that is associated with time trial effort/power can vary quite significantly on various factors (e.g., acute fatigue, chronic fatigue, anxiety, environmental conditions, cadence, topography, caffeine ingestion, etc).

For instance when i complete my TT power sessions, my HR can vary by up to 20 b/min, even though the power that i'm producing is the same. Thus, some weeks, my average HR during the interval is ~ 165 b/min and other weeks is ~ 185 b/min.

At virtually all intensities, it's preferable to prescribe training by power output as opposed to HR. This is due to variations in HR at a given workload (power output).

Perceived exertion is also an excellent measure, and you describe that your effort is high, and i assume that it feels the same as when your HR is 'normal'? This suggests that you're training at the correct effort, but your HR is depressed.

If your power is the same or higher (you won't know if you don't have a power meter), and your HR has changed then this is nothing to worry about. On the other, if your power and HR is depressed then this suggests that initially you are too fatigued and need some recovery. In fact, even if only your power is depressed then you need to ease up. One of the signs of overtraining is a decrease in performance.

As you get fitter your HR max *decreases*, but in a *recovered* state your average HR at TT power increases or stays the same.

Lactate threshold is actually quite a low intensity, usually sustainable for up to several plus hours in trained cyclists. It's usually determined as the workload (power output in cyclists, speed in runners) that elicits a 1mmol/L increase in lactate over exercise baseline levels (which would often be around 2 mmol/L) or at a fixed level of 2.5 mmol/L.

The effort that is associated with say a 1-hr TT is usually about ~20 to 25% higher than LT.

Good reply and thanx.


I can't guage my power generated other than by feel and speed attained.

After searching on the net I have come across articles that say if one cannot reach target heart rate for a given intensity on a consistant basis then it is a sign over over training.

One comment on your first statement though. I was talking about my effort at or just below my true lactate threshold.........*time trail effort* is above LT effort for a good portion of most time trials, unless it is a very long one. True, most good cyclists can maintain LT effort for hours but can only hold an effort ABOVE lactate threshold for 45 minutes to an hour. It is not wise to train at time trail effort when doing LT workouts as this will result in overtraining in record time.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by TiMan. I repsonded with >>
Good reply and thanx.

>>no problems!

I can't guage my power generated other than by feel and speed attained.

If you have a steep long hill that you regularly climb you can make a good estimate of your power, especially if you input the data at www.analyticcycling.com

After searching on the net I have come across articles that say if one cannot reach target heart rate for a given intensity on a consistant basis then it is a sign over over training.

>>this isn't really a sign of overtraining. this is more overreaching. overtraining is poorly understood, but the main symptom is that you consistently underperform. Therefore, if you're able to ride as well as you normally do (or note that you are better) then it's highly unlikely your overtrained


One comment on your first statement though. I was talking about my effort at or just below my true lactate threshold.........*time trail effort* is above LT effort for a good portion of most time trials, unless it is a very long one.

>>yes, TT efforts are virtually always above LT, which is what i wrote.

>>LT is a fairly low effort, and can and should be maintained for up to several hours (depending on fitness, etc)



True, most good cyclists can maintain LT effort for hours but can only hold an effort ABOVE lactate threshold for 45 minutes to an hour. It is not wise to train at time trail effort when doing LT workouts as this will result in overtraining in record time

>>Why would training at LT and TT effort cause overtraining? This is quite common to train both within a single session

Ric

 

[TiMan]

Originally posted by ricstern
Originally posted by TiMan. I repsonded with >>
Good reply and thanx.

>>this isn't really a sign of overtraining. this is more overreaching. overtraining is poorly understood, but the main symptom is that you consistently underperform. Therefore, if you're able to ride as well as you normally do (or note that you are better) then it's highly unlikely your overtrained

Upon further exploration these web sites simply said that having a very difficult time reaching a threshold heart rate is a sign that you need to back off and rest, it is a sign that one is not recovered....I mistakenly called it overtraining..
I know that I am not really *overtrained* per say because my performance is good.



>>Why would training at LT and TT effort cause overtraining? This is quite common to train both within a single session

....to clarify ...I was trying to say that one should not go out and train at TT intensity and think one is doing LT work. Not a few guys go out and train overly hard on LT days and put out a TT effort. The same can be said for those that cross train as runners....many go out and train ABOVE the LT and run at 10 race pace on LT training days.

Not only does this not train the system to best deal with lactate but it will likely result in over training in time. If a guy is doing one interval workout per week and then also does 1-2 of these time trial effort each week, each as well as other less intense, rides then I think he is asking for trouble, unless he is quite exceptional.

Okay ..yes...often times one does get into the TT intensity range during some parts of a LT workout and thats okay BUT I don't think it is okay to go out and hammer at TT effort for the majority of a LT workout thinking that one is doing LT training...this is simply too much for the body to handle for weeks on end.

Greg Lemond talked about this after last years "El Tour" here in Tucson. He said that he often had to "tune down" his efforts on "anaerobic threshold" rides. He talked about people training with too much intensity on theses rides and that it was counter productive to do so. He aslo said that he got the best inprovements in his anaerobic threshold when he rode just below his true anaerobic threshold. His true threshold heart rate used to be 175 beats per minute.

I will check out your web site. Thanx again.





Ric

 

[sanmi]

"At virtually all intensities, it's preferable to prescribe training by power output as opposed to HR. This is due to variations in HR at a given workload (power output).".

Ric,

Training cannot be prescribed by power otput because training at a certain power outputs for several minutes or hours will elicit completly different metabolic states e.g. If you set up yor Power output at e.g, 185 W, your metabolic state will differ greatly after 10 min to 30 min from start to 1hh or to 5 h.
Changes in HR of 20 beats/m are not real and extremely rare to see while training. It is possible to see up to 10-12 b/m difference (usually lower) due to fatigue, low muscle glycogen content, the combination of the 2 of them or as you said caffeine injestion, or adrenaline secretion (as in competition) which will cause an increase of HR. If your training, recovery and nutrition is properly monitored you should not have big changes in HR during training.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Why can you not prescribe training by power output? HR is a dependent variable.

I've not said that you should train at an absolute power for a period of time that may differ (i.e., 185 W for 1-hr or 5-hr -- that would be akin to saying training at (e.g.) 170 b/min for 1-hr or 5-hr). Obviously, the training prescription changes with duration as (e.g.) intensity is inversely related to duration.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Changes of up to 20 b/min are real at the same workload (on different days). Frequently, when i race on consecutive days my power is the same but HR is significantly depressed on 2nd and subsequent days.

Ric

 

[sanmi]

ric,

As I said if you monitor your training and have a reasonable good CHO diet you should be able to have a fairly constant HR.
HR is a better indicator of a constant physiogical state. Not exact 100% but you´d be surprised of how constant it is. Power output is not. However I believe POwer otput training is an excellent tool to test your self during tainig (e.g. climbing tests) and to improve climbing or TT capacity.

If you had a 20 b/m differences at the same workloads on different days could be due to de following:

- Important muscle glycogen depletion
- important degree of muscle fatigue
- unproper calibration of the cyclergometer used or whatever the power meter was used.

Under normal physiological conditions, a change og 20 b/m is NOT possible at the same workload.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by sanmi
ric,

As I said if you monitor your training and have a reasonable good CHO diet you should be able to have a fairly constant HR.
HR is a better indicator of a constant physiogical state. Not exact 100% but you´d be surprised of how constant it is. Power output is not. However I believe POwer otput training is an excellent tool to test your self during tainig (e.g. climbing tests) and to improve climbing or TT capacity.

If you had a 20 b/m differences at the same workloads on different days could be due to de following:

- Important muscle glycogen depletion
- important degree of muscle fatigue
- unproper calibration of the cyclergometer used or whatever the power meter was used.

Under normal physiological conditions, a change og 20 b/m is NOT possible at the same workload.

Yes it is. and yes, my diet is high in CHO, and yes my power meter is correctly calibrated. and training with power is far more accurate than training with HR.

Ric

 

[sanmi]

Ric,

Then you have a complete different physiology than most mortals.
I repeat: Under Normal physiological conditions it is not possible to have such a change in 20 b/m at same workloads. It is Impossible. And I repeat under NORMAL PHYSIOLOGICAL conditions ruling out the pointes I stated before.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Well, i'm very mortal and it does happen. and i see it in other riders too.


Ric

 

[sanmi]

That variation in 20 b/m Under normal physiological conditions is NOT possible at same workloads performed days apart. I can see months, mayve weeks, ofcourse due to training, but not within days.

sorry

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by sanmi
That variation in 20 b/m Under normal physiological conditions is NOT possible at same workloads performed days apart. I can see months, mayve weeks, ofcourse due to training, but not within days.

sorry

Sorry, i'm not talking about a training effect (as you too have stated).

Two places i see this happen
1) back to back days of either one-hour TTs or 'hard' RRs (hard being a relative term for the person competing in them)

2) during TT type training under varying conditions of fatigue
a) rested state at constant workload HR is *** b/min
b) same constant workload done in later in a session, suffering a bit HR is ***+ ~10 b/min
c) same constant workload towards the end of an over reaching period HR is *** - ~10 b/min

Chronic fatigue and/or glycogen depletion isn't present as the same high workload is being maintained

Ric

 

[sanmi]

As you stated this, I am right with what I said about same constant workload and HR. same constant workolad overtime elicits different physiological parameters (included HR). That´s why at the end of traininng you had to suffer more and had Higher HR at the same workload. Same for your parameters of an over reaching period.

But you have not still stated that e.g. a test performed today will have a difference of 20b/m if done 48 h later. (the same test performed under same physiologycal conditions)