DiLuca positive for EPO (CERA) ??

[zander1983]

Yes but hermatacrit should always decrease during an event such as the tour de france. its impossible to maintain or increase hermatacrit over 3 weeks of intense cycling. yet many of them do, particularly armstrong. the key is controlling it. something pantani couldnt do but the latest cyclists seem to be able to achieve comfortably.
i dont know about a hush-hush. but it would make sense. no positives from 174 riders. whats the explanation? there are too many powerful sponsors involved. im pretty sure that Nike would never allow armstrong to fail a control, one way or another. this has been the most high profile tour ever, and has generated more money than any other tour. why? because of armstrong. why would UCI shoot themselves in the foot? if he failed, pro cycling would never recover

 

[Ted B]

Ok, but you are implying that something is happening that isn't humanly possible, and I see no credible confirmation of said claim. Some individuals are more naturally gifted than others, and to be honest, I don't know enough of Pantani's long term blood history to even form an intelligent comment.

As far as no positives from 174 riders, several were caught prior to the TdF and aren't there. If others test positive, it quite possibly wouldn't be known until after the tour, as it takes time to process all those samples.

 

[zander1983]

yes, i believe what contador's doing isn't humanly possible. he's out of his saddle for hours every stage. very reminiscent of armstrong during his 7 wins. and armstrong was, of course, doping.
pantani doped from aged 17. but everyone did. he just kept letting his hermatacrit slip over 50%. doping killed him in the end, leading to addictions to coke and craic. he's a victim i guess

 

[Ted B]

and armstrong was, of course, doping.

This is but an opinion, as is the assertion that Contador is doing something humanly impossible. Opinions cannot realistically be expressed as absolutes and retain any credibility, especially when there is far more evidence in dispute of said opinion than otherwise. We can't just go around and claim anyone is 'of course, doping'. It's far worse to accuse an innocent party than to let a guilty one go unpunished.

 

[zander1983]

Whats the evidence in dispute of my opinion that armstrong doped?
Argument 1/ He's the most tested athelete in the world?
Heres a fact: armstrong wasn't even in the top 10 most tested cyclists in the world during his 7 victories. As he only competed in the TDF, he avoided all other controls. Armstrong was one of the LEAST tested cyclist in the TDF.
Argument 2/ Armstrong has never failed a doping test.
Armstrong has failed 7. For cortisoids in 1999 and EPO in 2005. His legal team wrangled their way out of it, as usual (the cortisoids prescription for saddle sores was written AFTER the failed test, the EPO failures were from B samples and deemed too old).
There are far more indicatoins of guilt than innocence. A little probing and research and the truth becomes clear

 

[phillop]

oh well at least this means carlos sastre gets his podium finsh to complete his set of the 3 grand tours, well deserved!

 

[zander1983]

forgot he was 4th. the man deserves it. him and menchov have had horrible tours. wonder why

 

[Ted B]

EPO protein degrades fairly quickly, even in frozen samples. I have enough of a background in analytical chemistry to state with unwavering sincerity that this *alleged* result wouldn't be worth the paper on which it's printed in any credible scientific argument. But if you prefer to believe the National Enquirer and other sensational journalism ...

As for corticosteroidal cream (e.g. hydrocortisone), it definitely helps to reduce inflammation of saddle sores and skin issues. It doesn't exactly increase one's lactate threshold or VO2 Max.

If this is the best 'evidence', it's flimsy. Produce one excessive hematocrit, anabolic metabolites, or something, anything scientifically verifiable and demonstrably linked to performance enhancement.

 

[zander1983]

with your flowery language, you sound like one of his many lawyers! dont get confused, i was just obliterating the 2 arguments he incessently puts forwards as proof of his innocence. there is much evidence pointing towards his guilt. I shall enighten you later this evening, when i have the time

 

[limerickman]

oh well at least this means carlos sastre gets his podium finsh to complete his set of the 3 grand tours, well deserved!

One good aspect to this story, Phil.

It's a pity Sastre did not get the chance to appear on the podium of the top 3 in Roma, at the time though.

 

[poulidor]

[urine = no positive]I take great offense to this comment.

Don't whine. Your like already the yellow color! and your idol smells like urine and poopoo. That is the problem when they are getting old.

 

[poulidor]

EPO protein degrades fairly quickly, even in frozen samples. I have enough of a background in analytical chemistry to state with unwavering sincerity that this *alleged* result wouldn't be worth the paper on which it's printed in any credible scientific argument. But if you prefer to believe the National Enquirer and other sensational journalism ...

As for corticosteroidal cream (e.g. hydrocortisone), it definitely helps to reduce inflammation of saddle sores and skin issues. It doesn't exactly increase one's lactate threshold or VO2 Max.

If this is the best 'evidence', it's flimsy. Produce one excessive hematocrit, anabolic metabolites, or something, anything scientifically verifiable and demonstrably linked to performance enhancement.

Your background in analytical chemistry should be very old and/or very low by comparaison with people working for 10 years in a doping lab and studying EPO.
Do you have noticed that one of the object of all WADA lab is to kept frozen for later retesting?
No one said that EPO didn't disappear with time but it's clear now that it takes more times than thought initialy. If EPO were so rapidly destroyed so why Lance don't agree/ask for a retesting of his 1999 samples? Probaly he will request it in 20 years when he will be sure that every EPO totaly disappeared.

 

[Ted B]

with your flowery language, you sound like one of his many lawyers!

That's because I strip away conjecture and look at the facts.

Do you have noticed that one of the object of all WADA lab is to kept frozen for later retesting?

Keeping peptides frozen doesn't guarantee preservation. That's like saying it's ok for diabetics to rely on insulin (another fragile peptide) that is 5 years past its expiration date.

You are correct, I don't work for a WADA lab. However, neither do I know of a scientific study that demonstrates long term stability of frozen EPO, and the test method almost certainly specifies a maximum storage time for a sample (probably 30 days). The fact that such an old sample would unexpectedly test positive leaves three possibilities:

(1) The test is subject to interference.
(2) The test was genuinely positive.
(3) Someone tampered with the sample.

Again, there is no valid test sample that proves LA is/was positive for performance enhancing drugs. This statement is what it is, nothing more or less. Don't read more into it than is there.

 

[poulidor]

You are correct, I don't work for a WADA lab. However, neither do I know of a scientific study that demonstrates long term stability of frozen EPO, and the test method almost certainly specifies a maximum storage time for a sample (probably 30 days). The fact that such an old sample would unexpectedly test positive leaves three possibilities:

(1) The test is subject to interference.
(2) The test was genuinely positive.
(3) Someone tampered with the sample.

Again, there is no valid test sample that proves LA is/was positive for performance enhancing drugs. This statement is what it is, nothing more or less. Don't read more into it than is there.

That kind of questions have been resolved with the same validity of all other science problem.

No doubt for scientists, rEPO were found in Lance's urines!
Tampering were not possible! And if possible how to tamper Lance's urine sample amongst all other anonymous samples.

Just read Ashenden's interview:
Michael Ashenden | Velocity Nation - Bike racing culture, news and events

Of course there is a lot of clues and evidences that corroborate the findings: like common use of EPO by riders, the level of EPO found linked with the importance of the stage, the performance of Lance after his cancer : 20-30% increase of performance in less than a year.

 

[limerickman]

I’ve got the video of the 2009 ITT finish at the Forum/Coliseum in Roma.
Menchov, on a very wet soggy cobblestone surface, crashes.
As quick as a flash, his Rabobank mechanic hops out of the car and gets to Menchov asap.
He gets the Russian up off the ground and on to a new bike in no time.

As this is happening RAI, pans across to the finish area and DiLuca is filmed there.
Stick thin, the Killer is looking at the camera watching Menchov.
Someone says something to him and he turns his back to the camera.
You see his neck, which almost looks transparent as he turns.
Even my wife said “that guy looks physically shattered” (which he did and she wouldn’t know her Lance Armstrongs from the water carrier finishing last each time).

If DiLuca did dope, he looked like **** at the end of the Giro.

 

[Ted B]

Just read Ashenden's interview:
Michael Ashenden | Velocity Nation - Bike racing culture, news and events

Ashenden also confesses:
"... there is a real chance for false positives to occur if the laboratory has not followed correct procedure. But no-one knows what this chance is, because it hasn't been studied."
www.cyclingnews.com - the world centre of cycling

... which raises concerns about the possibility of false positives from testing used at that time:
www.cyclingnews.com - the world centre of cycling

And finally, a study conducted by Mujika on the efficacy of the test at that time concluded:
"Conditions of storage and transport of the urine can also seriously affect the validity and reliability of the test."
www.cyclingnews.com - the world centre of cycling


So, one cannot present only the part of the picture while ignoring the remainder. As I've already stated, until/unless a valid positive sample can be presented, it doesn't exist.

 

[jimmypop]

So, one cannot present only the part of the picture while ignoring the remainder. As I've already stated, until/unless a valid positive sample can be presented, it doesn't exist.

I follow your line of thinking, and I appreciate the conclusion you've reached, but it's hardly a secret within professional cycling that PED use helped fuel Armstrong (and nearly every other GT contender, for what that's worth).

I imagine that some professionals (ex and current) look at the arguments regarding doping and have a good, sad laugh. They saw what went on, they heard the stories firsthand, and they know what really went on.

I sincerely appreciate the quest for due process, but certain cyclists have abused the system for so long that I half-jokingly wonder if the burden shouldn't be on them.

This isn't life or death. It's cycling, a professional sport, and I'm not sure we need to be bringing human rights into the discussion.

 

[poulidor]

Ashenden also confesses:
"... there is a real chance for false positives to occur if the laboratory has not followed correct procedure. But no-one knows what this chance is, because it hasn't been studied."
www.cyclingnews.com - the world centre of cycling

It's specific on Hamilton's case, blood transfusion nothing to do with EPO testing, but as you can read it when there is a problem Ashenden can point it.

... which raises concerns about the possibility of false positives from testing used at that time:
www.cyclingnews.com - the world centre of cycling

And finally, a study conducted by Mujika on the efficacy of the test at that time concluded:
"Conditions of storage and transport of the urine can also seriously affect the validity and reliability of the test."
www.cyclingnews.com - the world centre of cycling


So, one cannot present only the part of the picture while ignoring the remainder. As I've already stated, until/unless a valid positive sample can be presented, it doesn't exist.

The 2005 study is well-known, it's more a problem of reading the results that was a problem...

I am sure when you are speeding and not caught by police, you were not speeding, of course but your speed were over the limits, same with Armstrong's urine not caught despite being doped with EPO.

 

[doctorSpoc]

Some of these riders like Diluca and Menchov make their doping so obvious by the wild swings in their performance. I think it was just a couple years ago in the TdF that Diluca was barely finishing stages. And look at Menchov at this year's TdF. Certainly all riders try to peak at certain times and because of this will have various degrees of form, but not to this extent. IMO the most obvious doper ever is Iban Mayo, going from a full sprint up Alpe d'Huez to needing his teammates to push him up the hills in the Pyrenees a couple years later.

Armstrong has never had such wild swings. If you are a top rider, it's not possible to suck super bad like these dopers can on occasion.

c'mon... Armstrong's 1st win at the TdF was right out of left field.. no one expected a guy like Armstrong to win the Tour de France given his history to that point.. even if he hadn't come back from cancer.. the cancer thing just makes his transformation even more weird and unexpected.. that's why people have been like.. yeah, whatever... precisely because of his sudden and dramatic transformation..

 

[limerickman]

c'mon... Armstrong's 1st win at the TdF was right out of left field.. no one expected a guy like Armstrong to win the Tour de France given his history to that point.. even if he hadn't come back from cancer.. the cancer thing just makes his transformation even more weird and unexpected.. that's why people have been like.. yeah, whatever... precisely because of his sudden and dramatic transformation..

use the word transfiguration, instead.

That's what all the religious types use when speaking about deities