DiLuca's stupidity defense

Discussion in 'Professional Cycling' started by Bro Deal, Mar 10, 2008.

  1. Bro Deal

    Bro Deal New Member

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    "The day after I had a flat stage, so an injection would have been useless," Di Luca continued.

    FLandis tried a defense like this. Didn't work out so well.
     
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  2. Crankyfeet

    Crankyfeet New Member

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    Bro...you really have it in for these guys who dope.

    Doesn't the fact that probably 95% of the peloton dopes in some form, make it an institutional/systemic problem? If it was only 10 or so guys doping, and they were winning everything, I'd want to string them up. But nearly everyone has succumbed to the temptation. It's nearly impossible to be a pro and not have succumbed probably. Clean cyclist and professional cyclist are almost mutually exclusive (at least in the past, excluding guys like Gilbert)

    IMO we should give the riders a bit more room, and focus on changing the system to make doping less of an option. We worked out on this forum that most of us would also dope if it meant significant performance improvements, and you had little chance of testing positive. The governing bodies, promoters, and the fans to an extent, set this trap up for pro cyclists, and then when they fall in, we chastise them, especially when they initially try to lie their way out of it. IMO, we are playing into the UCI's hands by persecuting the cyclists. The system created doping, not a few bad cyclists IMHO.
     
  3. Bro Deal

    Bro Deal New Member

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    I have it in for those who treat the fans and everyone else like we are morons. When the riders get popped, they should have the cojones to man up. I am waiting for one of them to be honest enough to say, "So what? I'm was just doing what everyone else was." Instead it's total denial or a bullcrap story about how they strayed in a moment of temptation and they are sorry.
     
  4. Crankyfeet

    Crankyfeet New Member

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    The fact that they have told the lie of being clean probably 5,000 times to their close friends and family over the years, probably makes the lie easy to make when they get popped. They risk total rejection from those close to them if they man up with the truth. They couldn't afford to tell the truth to their friends and family through their career. It is a sorry predicament that the system has created IMO.

    But I hear your point. And I respect that you are a person who seeks the truth. We want them to have the courage to reveal the truth, to pull away the facade, like Jaksche has done. But the profession and their peers have slowly destroyed their integrity and courage to tell the truth. Lying gets a lot easier if you have done it 5,000 times I imagine.

    I hope I am not coming across as an apologist for dopers. Perhaps I am one a little. Because I see their eventual predicament as a slow process of small incremental seduction and moral slips encouraged by big rewards and little risk. Especially made easy until late 2005 when it was almost condoned.

    I also feel very sorry for courageous moral riders like Gilbert who are good enough to survive, and even win early season, riding clean. Who knows... he could have won 8 TdF's if everyone was clean like him. He could have been respected in history like Merckx and Hinault in a drug free sport. Who knows? Instead he has to take his small glories when he has the opportunity.
     
  5. helmutRoole2

    helmutRoole2 New Member

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    Props to Crankyfeet, but I have to agree with Bro on this one. The biggest problem is the lying. As long as star riders have a gullible fan base, they're going to lie. I've pointed this out several times, but when Camenzind came up hot, he offered no comment and retired. This coming from a former world and World Cup champion. It speaks volumes.

    Guys like Landis and DeLuca are trying to salvage their reputations and future paychecks when the fact of the matter is, they participate(ed) in a sport that is on many levels a game of Russian Roulette and it is that way because of the layers on layers of lies to explain put forth to explain performances otherwise impossible.

    Guys like Landis should Camenzind-up. They've already banked a shitload and have had the experience of being a top flight professional athlete. They should consider themselves lucky; lucky that they responded to the pharmaceuticals; lucky that they got to ride and in some cases win the monuments of the sport; lucky they got ride the latest, mechanic-maintained equipment; lucky they rode in a team bus... all that stuff. Instead they want their own jet airplane like Lance.

    The way the sport is right now, no one will bank it like Lance because no one will believe that type of performance and for good reason: because it ain't possible.

    It's taken seven, eight years for people to finally start to figure that out.
     
  6. padawan

    padawan New Member

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  7. Bro Deal

    Bro Deal New Member

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    I'm sure Landis and Hamilton are pissed. They got popped just as they were on the threshold of breaking into the big money. All the older riders who have been busted in the last few years must be angry. They know that the biggest doper of the last decade, maybe in the history of all sport, got away with it and now they are, in some part, paying for the outrageousness of Armstrong's behavior. He had to keep pushing it to ridiculous extremes.

    FLandis and Hamilton had it in their power to make a difference. They know what Armstrong did and how he did it. They know where the bodies are buried. They could have blown the lid off of the whole sordid affair. Instead they turned themselves into the butts of jokes.

    I haven't got a problem with Millar or Vaughters or Andreu or Riis or Jaksche or anyone else who has fessed up. I do wish they would give a more complete account. The systemic nature of the doping has led to a sad situation, and the brunt of the consequences is falling on the riders. The riders cry about this, but they could change it. It is omerta that is protecting the riders who are smart enough or lucky enough not to test positive and their doping infrastructure. If the riders chose not to go along with the "bad apples" theory then they could take the blame off of themselves and put it on the systemic nature of doping where it belongs. They choose not to do this, and I have a hard time feeling sympathy for those who refuse to help themselves.

    The denials are now a stupid defense. It isn't 1997. It isn't even 2004. The time when you could stonewall a doping investigation and make excuses that would actually be believed by gullible fans is over. When I hear a rider like DiLuca using a bullshit defense like doping at that time doesn't make sporting sense so I must be innocent, it makes me feel that he must think me and everyone else is a moron. It's a great big, "Fuck you!" Well, fuck DiLuca and everyone else like him.
     
  8. Frigo's Luggage

    Frigo's Luggage New Member

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    I am with both Cranky and Bro on this one. Most of the riders are just cogs in the machine. Dope or lose your job to the next guy that is willing to do it. I don't even mind the lying about it. I don't expect them to tell the truth. The thing that pisses me off is the egos these guys get once they start winning. I am not upset by the guy that dopes to feed his family. I get pissed by the obnoxious prima donna stars that wouldn't be stars if they were clean...DiLuca is at the top of the list.

    Cranky, looking to score some PEDs for next weekend?
     
  9. hawkeye87

    hawkeye87 New Member

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    I wish Riis and others would speak up too. I don't think it's in Bjarne's nature. He seems rather private and somewhat abrupt about discussing issues like that.

    I think another problem is that those riders who finally did fess up and are still at an age to ride, seem to be shunned. Millar is the notable exception. But Jaschke and, potentially, Sinkowitz appear to be headed towards retirement. Heras, too.
     
  10. Crankyfeet

    Crankyfeet New Member

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    I don't think the layers and layers of lies are a cause of the problem... I think they are a symptom. The sport makes doping almost mandatory at the elite pro level. Significant performance improvements occur from doping against a small risk of detection (either you're extremely unlucky or stupid to get caught) and the fact that your competition is mostly doped, makes it a neccessity to compete, as well as being an almost impossible temptation to refuse (as a top athlete, performance increases and the desire to win or achieve more become an obsession). Moreover, the initial decision can perhaps be subtle and almost obligatory, but once it's made, you have joined the dark side. Maybe you are only 22, just joined a team, and they begin the team medical program on you. It almost feels like it is expected. Everyone accepts the situation. But for years and years, nearly everyone you meet and your family all at some point ask you "So do you dope?", and you have no choice but to lie to them, each and every time. For to tell the truth would start a fire that you wouldn't be able to control. And only your pro cycling peers become your true friends, because they share your lie. And you begin to dislike yourself, but whilst you are with your peers (the omerta) you can comfort each other that it is the only way.

    Personally, I'd like everyone to have the cojones to reveal the truth. Everyone including the doctors, the teams, the DS's, the corrupt UCI, everyone involved in the lie, to come forward and lay it all on the table. But it may not solve the problem. Because until the risks of doping outweigh the rewards, it will probably continue, no matter how much everyone hugs each other and promises to start afresh.
     
  11. Crankyfeet

    Crankyfeet New Member

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    How did you see through my pathetic attempts to rationalize my own weak morals teetering on the brink?... :rolleyes: :p

    It maybe isn't a coincidence that my totally untrustworthy subconscious has managed to befriend the only rider who's also an ER doctor in our club... :cool:

    It wasn't a conscious decision... but if I get dropped from the F grade peloton again... I might be in a morally vulnerable state... :eek:
     
  12. Frigo's Luggage

    Frigo's Luggage New Member

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    Send me your FedEx account number in a PM. I may have a package for you.
     
  13. Crankyfeet

    Crankyfeet New Member

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    The UCI's treatment of the whistleblowers is one of the main reasons why I hate those guys' guts. But I think the sport needs some kind of an official governing body. It's just that the current UCI's involvement in the sorry mess is never admitted to... and they prefer to have the public believe that there is only a handful of "old" riders who dope... and once we get rid of them the sport will be lily, virgin bride, white.

    If the UCI were really interested in getting to the bottom of the mess (instead of wanting to cover up the bottom because that's where they are), then they would be championing these guys and encouraging others to come forward.

    It's hard to know whether to fight for the sport, or just shoot it like a horse with a broken leg, and start over. The latter looks like the best solution, day by day, IMHO.
     
  14. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Camezind was the only rider that I can recall who admitted it, as soon as he was caught.
     
  15. Crankyfeet

    Crankyfeet New Member

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    What about Sinkewitz... or was it Moreni last year?
     
  16. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

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    Moreni was hauled in by the police - and then confessed.

    Sink?

    I do recall with Camezind that as soon as the positive was announced - he admitted that he doped and promptly retired.
    (credit where it's due - given the antics of other riders who try to deny/deny/deny despite being caught).
     
  17. lucybears

    lucybears New Member

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  18. helmutRoole2

    helmutRoole2 New Member

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    I get that feeling too, especially with Landis. He reminds of a crack whore on a bender always wanting more. (Gimme, gimme, gimme, I need some more; gimme, gimme, gimme, don't ask what for -- BF.) It's not until the haze clears that he'll possibly see how greedy he's been. He's getting bad advice from someone. Or possibly no one. He's dug himself a deep hole and based on his actions (I'm thinking of the Lemond phone call) he wants to climb out but it seems like he thinks he's dug too deep. If you're in a hole, it doesn't matter how deep you've gotten yourself in, out is where you wanna be. I don't know if he's got the balls to do it. I'd have respect for him if he did.

    Maybe if WADA continues to target the top dopers, the lower wrung won't feel as compelled to cheat. However, don't underestimate the recreational lure of these drugs. If testosterone and steroids are a rush, EPO and HGH stacked on top has got to be that much better. Look at Tyler Hamilton. Look how distorted his face has become. (The pics are on this site somewhere. There's more than a few, so it's not a bad angle.) That's likely from mass quantities of HGH. He looks like a clown, literally. How he can look at himself in the mirror and not think, "I'm a freak show," is beyond me. Maybe he just figures the damage is already done, and besides, "HGH is fun, effective, and non-detectable." He is a modern day Greek tragedy. Like Landis, he had plenty, but wanted more.

    But back to the original thought: Landis and Hamilton got the blue print from Armstrong, but they got it a year or two too late. And when WADA came calling, they didn't have the funds accumulated, or maybe the good sense, to pay them off. For Flamilton, the timing was horribly, horribly bad. I think you can say plenty of bad things about WADA, but Landis, Hamilton and Herras rightfully are top-shelf trophies for that organization.
     
  19. hawkeye87

    hawkeye87 New Member

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    Sinkowitz initially denied it but it was only a week or two later and he admitted to recalling rubbing a steriod balm onto his arm during training. He said something to the effect of it being a stupid thing to do and apologized to the team for it.
     
  20. thoughtforfood

    thoughtforfood New Member

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    I have been clean and sober from other "recreational" substances for almost 17 years, and I have seen THOUSANDS of active drug addicts. Landis is acting in classic fashion as is/was Hamilton. They have justified it in their minds, and do not see that they have doped because everyone doped.

    Some people when faced with their drug addiction (and contrary to what many may think, that is what doping is), redouble their efforts to deny their problem, some people reduce their use and think they are better now because they aren't doing as much, and others face the problem. There is a mix of these people in the peloton. Some never use in the first place.

    I find the way in which Landis and Hamilton dealt with their respective positives very interesting and in a way funny, because when you have seen that reaction 1000 times, the truth is as apparent as a flashing red light. I have been there/done that and you can't kid a kidder.
     
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