Disc brakes and QRs making headlines

[Doug Taylor]

"James Annan" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

> In a world where 10% of Americans believe they have been abducted by aliens, it would be foolish
> to expect unanimity.

Indeed. And in that same world, let us also remember that it was Brits and the Yanks alone which
insisted that Iraq had a huge supply of weapons of mass destruction imminently threatening the rest
of the world.

There a whole lot of **** floating around, eh?

 

[B. Sanders]

"Doug Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "James Annan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > In a world where 10% of Americans believe they have been abducted by aliens, it would be foolish
> > to expect unanimity.
>
> Indeed. And in that same world, let us also remember that it was Brits
and
> the Yanks alone which insisted that Iraq had a huge supply of weapons of mass destruction
> imminently threatening the rest of the world.

Some high level US officials need to spend some serious time in the stockade over that blunder; but
it will never happen. They're still trying to dig up shreds of WMD evidence. They'll find nothing
that 12 years of UN inspections couldn't find. What were they thinking? (Not much, apparently.)

> There a whole lot of **** floating around, eh?

Impeach Bush Now. What is the statute of limitations on going AWOL for an entire year during
time of war?

Barry

 

[Maki]

In article <[email protected]>, Tim McNamara
<[email protected]> wrote:

> There IS a problem. That's been determined by the application of well-known engineering
> principles. What has not been determined is the frequency of occurance.

Those principles are so well known that I wonder how can somebody think that people designing forks
and brakes are ignoring them. For what purpose?

--
Fact of life #15: Heads bleed, walls don't.

 

[B A R R Y B U R]

"B. Sanders" wrote:
>
> "B a r r y B u r k e J r ." <"keep it in the newsgroup "@thankyou.com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

> > I have several bikes equipped with "V" and disc brakes. Off-road, I'll never go "V" again. $800?
> > Avid mechanical can be had for $200.
>
> So, you managed to buy a complete set of Avid disc brakes *and disc wheels* for $200? I think you
> forgot to mention the price of the disc wheelset.

Good point, the LBS I work for sells a complete Deore hydraulic setup, WITH Sun wheels for $319. I'm
sure some mail order houses could do even better. We're still nowhere near $800, though.

> Oh, and let's not forget the disc-ready frame. My WTB titanium hardtail doesn't have disc tabs.
> Should I sell it to go with disc brakes? I don't think so.

Are we trolling now? We both know not all frames and forks are compatible. The same can be said for
several other innovations of the last 10 years.

> If you do lots of sloppy, muddy, wet riding combined with steep descents, then discs might be the
> best choice.

So I guess they aren't such a "fashion statement"? Most people don't need to do "lots" of wet riding
to see a benefit.

> > Last, but especially not least, disc brakes are not sensitive to out of true or slightly
> > damaged rims.
>
> This is true.
>
> > I'll gladly keep V-brakes on my road bikes, but gimmie discs off-road.
>
> There are still a huge number of offroad riders for whom V-brakes are the better option on every
> score, and for whom the $400+ switch to discs would be wasted money.

I don't know where you ride, but I hit some sort of mud or water about 80% of the rides I do.
That makes discs an excellent upgrade. Since we don't ride each other's bikes, isn't it great we
have a choice?

Barry

 

[Caspar Lugtmeie]

....
> Cantis, which modulate but don't stop, or V-s, which stop but don't modulate...
....

Note that there is a rim brake that stops AND modulates: Magura HS-33

 

[Superslinky]

SuperSlinky said...

> My own anecdotal experience has been that either type of brake will do the job, but disc brakes
> make me more confident in using the brakes. I always hated the sickening scraping sound of
> vibrates on the rim after going through a puddle on a trail. I don't see how you can do much trail
> riding at all without hitting at least one low muddy spot per ride. Maybe if you lived in a
> desert. My front vibrate usually squealed, actually screamed would be a better word, regardless of
> pads or adjustment technique. Then sometimes the squeal would just stop for a while. I think there
> is a lot more modulation with my discs than my V's, but for that very reason the V's react
> quicker, which is sometimes what you want.

Uh, that should be v-brakes instead of vibrates. Spell checker snafu.

 

[Just Zis Guy]

On Sun, 18 May 2003 21:53:23 GMT, SuperSlinky <[email protected]> wrote:

>It's because they were being fed false intelligence, probably by Israel.

How dare you suggest that Israel may be capable of wrongdoing? Clearly it's a conspiracy between the
evil Palestinians and Osama bin Laden. Not to be confused with the Saudi bin Ladens, of course, who
are all round good guys and contributors to the Republican party.

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
dynamic DNS permitting)
NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
work. Apologies.

 

[B. Sanders]

"P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 18 May 2003 17:30:03 GMT, "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> |By stating my preferences, and noting the acknowledged power of
groupthink
> |in the cycling world, am I "slagging off" anybody in particular? No. I'm |simply saying that
> everyone should make informed decisions. That's very |different than just following the crowd and
> letting the industry mags
lead
> |you around by the nose ring.
>
> Why do you assume that folks that have tried discs are just "following the crowd" or being led
> around by industry mags?

I have tried discs myself, and never read industry mags. Did you read that part? So obviously I
disagree with your rhetorical statement. However, hype from industry mags *does* drive the
marketplace. Many are switching to discs because they are fashion victims, or totemistic or both.

> |Keeping control is very important, of course. My Avid V-brakes have
enough
> |braking power to throw me over the handlebars with one finger (if I was |feeling like trying endo
> ;-) but they still modulate very well. It's all |about setting them up correctly, and using good
> brake pads. BTW: "Good" |brake pads does not mean "expensive" brake pads. I've had good luck with
> |department store V-brake pads that cost under $5/pr.
>
> Properly set up discs modulate much better than V-brakes in my experience.

We'll add your experiences to the data pool.

> |> Plus I get more smooth braking than I did with Vs,
> |
> |Again, this is all about proper setup. Poorly setup V-brakes don't
modulate
> |well, and some stock pads (Shimano) are terrible. I hated V-brakes until
I
> |got them setup correctly (just a wee bit of toe-in).
>
> Not in my experience. No matter how well you set up V-Brakes, they cannot modulate as well as
> properly setup discs.

I'm here to tell you that they do. Much better. I was surprised when I did an A-B comparison, since
I had read the hype about discs.

> |> And it is really great to ride through some mud on a downhill and know
the
> |> brake will work immediately when I need it.
> |
> |Sloppy, wet, clay mud is probably the best reason to have discs. I don't |ride in sloppy, sticky
> mud; but if I did, then discs are what I'd ride.
Of
> |course, thousands of competitive riders have successfully ridden V-brakes
in
> |sloppy mud for quite a few years, and they're still riding strong.
>
> Discs are not just for sloppy mud. Better modulation is advantageous in all conditions and
> especially advantageous in technical terrain.

Exactly. That's why I favor V-brakes.

> You prior arguments about the relative costs of V-brake pads vs. disc pads are specious given the
> fact that disc pads last a very, very long time when compared to V-brake pads.

Depends on the conditions and usage. When I need pads, it's nice to be able to find them
almost anywhere. Discs are all different, making it likely that pads won't be readily
available for Brand X.

Barry

 

[Jon Bond]

"B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Sun, 18 May 2003 17:30:03 GMT, "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote:
>snip<
> > Properly set up discs modulate much better than V-brakes in my experience.
>
> We'll add your experiences to the data pool. snip<

Data pool:

People who think Discs are better, both in power and modulation, among other things: A shitload.

People who still insist that V's are superior: Barry.

Dare to be different, Barry, dare to be different... and don't come crying to us when you hit a
patch of mud and can't stop in time to avoid that cliff because your V's are just sliding on the mud
on the rims.

Jon Bond

 

[Superslinky]

B. Sanders said...

> Some high level US officials need to spend some serious time in the stockade over that blunder;
> but it will never happen. They're still trying to dig up shreds of WMD evidence. They'll find
> nothing that 12 years of UN inspections couldn't find. What were they thinking? (Not much,
> apparently.)

It's because they were being fed false intelligence, probably by Israel.

 

[B. Sanders]

"Doug Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> >> If you expect thinking people to switch to disc brakes, from V-brakes,
> you
> > need to provide compelling evidence. If you're trying to appeal to
> drooling
> > morons with wads of cash hanging out of their pockets, I guess evidence isn't as important.
>
> For every dewbie with a big wallet who buys into sheer marketing, there's
a...

.. tattooed and pierced dude plunking down the big ca$h because all of his buddies did, then
justifying the expenditure by saying "everybody else is doing it." It's these same dudes who
convince the newbies to buy into the disc brake hype, and the circle of hype grows. The newbies
don't understand why their crappy low-end stock discs don't work very well; but they don't know any
better, and figure that all brakes are like that.

> If you ACTUALLY ride one bike with v-s and another with discs regularly,
and
> still insist that the v-s are superior in terms of stopping power,

That's what I've found.

> modulation, and not locking up, I submit you are:

someone who knows how to set-up V-brakes better than you, apparently

Barry

 

[B. Sanders]

"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." <"keep it in the newsgroup "@thankyou.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "B. Sanders" wrote:
> >
> > "B a r r y B u r k e J r ." <"keep it in the newsgroup "@thankyou.com>
wrote
> > in message news:[email protected]...
>
> > > I have several bikes equipped with "V" and disc brakes. Off-road,
I'll
> > > never go "V" again. $800? Avid mechanical can be had for $200.
> >
> > So, you managed to buy a complete set of Avid disc brakes *and disc
wheels*
> > for $200? I think you forgot to mention the price of the disc wheelset.
>
> Good point, the LBS I work for sells a complete Deore hydraulic setup, WITH Sun wheels for $319.
> I'm sure some mail order houses could do even better. We're still nowhere near $800, though.

How much do those Sun wheels and Deore discs weigh? How much do a similarly priced set of wheels and
V-brakes weigh? What is the difference in weight? What is the difference in performance?

I'll bet that Deore/Sun setup will add at least 1, possibly 2 pounds to a bike.

> > Oh, and let's not forget the disc-ready frame. My WTB titanium hardtail doesn't have disc tabs.
Should I
> > sell it to go with disc brakes? I don't think so.
>
> We both know not all frames and forks are compatible. The same can be said for several other
> innovations of the last 10 years.

What's your point? My point is that there are thousands and thousands of riders whose frames are not
disc-ready. For most of them, switching to discs means getting a new bike.

> > If you do lots of sloppy, muddy, wet riding combined with steep
descents,
> > then discs might be the best choice.
>
> So I guess they aren't such a "fashion statement"? Most people don't need to do "lots" of wet
> riding to see a benefit.

For some people discs are absolutely a fashion statement, or perhaps a decision based purely upon
hype. For those who make an informed decision, and prefer discs, I have no problem with that. My
point is: Make an informed decision. Going with the crowd is not the same as making an informed
decision, and that's what allows hype to drive the market. (Again, think about tubelesss tires. All
the rage a couple of years ago...)

> > There are still a huge number of offroad riders for whom V-brakes are
the
> > better option on every score, and for whom the $400+ switch to discs
would
> > be wasted money.
>
> I don't know where you ride, but I hit some sort of mud or water about 80% of the rides I do.

I've never had a problem with brakes, except when riding in snow that packs-up.

Barry

 

[B. Sanders]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 18 May 2003 21:53:23 GMT, SuperSlinky <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >It's because they were being fed false intelligence, probably by Israel.
>
> How dare you suggest that Israel may be capable of wrongdoing? Clearly it's a conspiracy between
> the evil Palestinians and Osama bin Laden. Not to be confused with the Saudi bin Ladens, of
> course, who are all round good guys and contributors to the Republican party.

How could there possibly be a connection between Osama bin Laden and his own family? I find this
incredible!

;-)

Barry

 

[Spider]

James Annan <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Doug Taylor wrote:
>
> > A theory has been proposed, which appears to be sound on paper. There is anecdotal evidence to
> > support it, and that which does not. It has yet to be "proven" by actual testing and
> > measurement. Annan will admit as much, I wager.
>
> More evidence is always nice, but it's already proven beyond reasonable doubt IMO, let alone on
> the balance of probabilities (the relevant confidence level in the UK).

Proven beyond a shadow of a doubt???

Where are the controlled studies? Please - a scientist accepts scientific analysis as proof. And
controlled experiments need to be done.

> Bear in mind that I also have a mailbox full of the same stuff, which is essentially the same as
> that quoted. The only value of more evidence is in convincing other people, which would be nice
> but is not essential. In a world where 10% of Americans believe they have been abducted by aliens,
> it would be foolish to expect unanimity.

A bunch of anecdotal evidence is STILL anecdotal.

I am not discounting or disbelieving. But at the same time, if you use the word "proof" or it's
variants, you had better have something beyond anecdotal evidence and a free-body diagram. Just be
careful in how you present the existing evidence. We already have enough bicycling crack-pots
running around spouting pseudoscience.

Spider

 

[B. Sanders]

"Jon Bond" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:bpTxa.885843$3D1.505911@sccrnsc01...
>
> "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > On Sun, 18 May 2003 17:30:03 GMT, "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >snip<
> > > Properly set up discs modulate much better than V-brakes in my experience.
> >
> > We'll add your experiences to the data pool. snip<
>
> Data pool:
>
> People who think Discs are better, both in power and modulation, among
other
> things: A shitload.
>
> People who still insist that V's are superior: Barry.

LOL! I love how you play right into my hands...

By avoiding facts, and marginalizing any detractors, you are showing how weak the pro-disc argument
is. Evidence? Facts? Tests? Where are they?

What do you mean when you say "discs are better?" Do you mean lighter? Do you mean cheaper? Do you
mean simpler? What exactly do you mean?

> Dare to be different, Barry, dare to be different...

Be a pack animal, Jon. Be just like all the other tattooed fashion victims. Don't ever stray from
the norm. Mercilessly ridicule those who are different to boost your fragile ego.

-Barry

 

[Jon Bond]

"Caspar Lugtmeier & Eva Skotarczak" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> ....
> > Cantis, which modulate but don't stop, or V-s, which stop but don't modulate...
> ....
>
> Note that there is a rim brake that stops AND modulates: Magura HS-33

Maguras are great breaks, but they have the same drawbacks for wet weather situations as any other
rim brake, and my friend with them says they were something of a ***** to set up.

Fantastic brakes for trials, though.

Jon Bond

 

[Jon Bond]

"B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Jon Bond" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:bpTxa.885843$3D1.505911@sccrnsc01...
> >
> > "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > "P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > On Sun, 18 May 2003 17:30:03 GMT, "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >snip<
> > > > Properly set up discs modulate much better than V-brakes in my experience.
> > >
> > > We'll add your experiences to the data pool. snip<
> >
> > Data pool:
> >
> > People who think Discs are better, both in power and modulation, among
> other
> > things: A shitload.
> >
> > People who still insist that V's are superior: Barry.
>
> LOL! I love how you play right into my hands...

Can anyone tell me who looks like the stubborn grouch here? Anyone? Anyone? Bueler?

> By avoiding facts, and marginalizing any detractors, you are showing how weak the pro-disc
> argument is. Evidence? Facts? Tests? Where are they?

Facts: I gave you the weights, which you quickly ignored. Where are your facts, barry?

> What do you mean when you say "discs are better?" Do you mean lighter?
Do
> you mean cheaper? Do you mean simpler? What exactly do you mean?

And I quote: "both in power and modulation, among other things"

> > Dare to be different, Barry, dare to be different...
>
> Be a pack animal, Jon. Be just like all the other tattooed fashion
victims.
> Don't ever stray from the norm. Mercilessly ridicule those who are
different
> to boost your fragile ego.
>
> -Barry

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Me, a tattooed fashion victim. That's a hoot. Do you know I go to the gym for 5 hours
a day just because I don't like what people think of me? And I'm on my third nose, because my
original one was a little too big. Oh yeah, and I'm about to get my 18th piercing tomorrow.

Jon "XTREEEEM" Bond

 

[B A R R Y B U R]

"B. Sanders" wrote:
>
>
> For some people discs are absolutely a fashion statement, or perhaps a decision based purely upon
> hype. For those who make an informed decision, and prefer discs, I have no problem with that. My
> point is: Make an informed decision. Going with the crowd is not the same as making an informed
> decision, and that's what allows hype to drive the market. (Again, think about tubelesss tires.
> All the rage a couple of years ago...)

Actually, tubeless is getting more popular by the day, prices are dropping... <G> More new bikes
were spec'ed with tubeless this year than ever before, and the tire selection has never been better.

Barry, you win. I'll just keep following the pack, buying whatever "fad part" Buycycling Magazine
tells me to. You can smugly know that you're right, and all of the others are wrong.

Barry

 

[Andy Dingley]

On Sun, 18 May 2003 16:53:28 -0400, "Doug Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Indeed. And in that same world, let us also remember that it was Brits and the Yanks alone which
>insisted that Iraq had a huge supply of weapons of mass destruction imminently threatening the rest
>of the world.

Rummsfeld knew they must have them...

He still had the receipts.

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>, SuperSlinky <[email protected]> wrote:

> B. Sanders said...
>
> > Some high level US officials need to spend some serious time in the stockade over that blunder;
> > but it will never happen. They're still trying to dig up shreds of WMD evidence. They'll find
> > nothing that 12 years of UN inspections couldn't find. What were they thinking? (Not much,
> > apparently.)
>
> It's because they were being fed false intelligence, probably by Israel.

No- the false intelligence was collected by the US government, under the impetus of the Rumsfeld
group. They didn't need any help from anyone else to screw this up.