Disco/Active Bay excluded from IPCT meeting..

[whiteboytrash]

I think the issue the other teams have with DC is that Bruyneel with others voted, pushed and voiced for Basso to be excluded from the Tour based on the OP evidence at hand.... 4 months later he is signing Basso on the same evidence... many feel Bruyneel has lost credibility and shafted his other DS's... if he thought that Basso was being unfairly judged at the time of the Tour then he should have spoken then... However I will say that you can't buy a Tour win.... it doesn't work like that... I honestly don't think Basso will amount to much next year.....

 

[wolfix]

I think the issue the other teams have with DC is that Bruyneel with others voted, pushed and voiced for Basso to be excluded from the Tour based on the OP evidence at hand.... 4 months later he is signing Basso on the same evidence... many feel Bruyneel has lost credibility and shafted his other DS's... if he thought that Basso was being unfairly judged at the time of the Tour then he should have spoken then... However I will say that you can't buy a Tour win.... it doesn't work like that... I honestly don't think Basso will amount to much next year.....

This is not a case of "same evidence." The evidence at the time the teams voted this in, they did not know the evidence. Since then , Basso has been declared not guilty by the Italian authorities.

But let's look at this closer.....

Tinkoff has just hired a doper attached to OP....... Tyler Hamilton. The Protour jerk off society has not said anything about that.

Riis talked to Basoo about hiring him back. The reason Basso and Riis did not come to terms had nothing to do with the "gentleman's agreement".

Now all the anti=Dscovery people are calling for heads to roll because Discovery has hired Basso, who has been released to ride by his federation. Discovery was not implimented in OP.

Using the reasoning of the anti-Discovery group that Basso should not be hired because of his "involvment in OP", shouldn't T-Mobile and CSC also not be granted a license? Remember, they were the teams that won with dopers , not Discovery.

And anyone who gives the [size=-1]IPCT any credibility [/size][size=-1]con[/size][size=-1]cerning doping matters[/size][size=-1] with [/size][size=-1]Patrick Lefévère[/size][size=-1] as it's chairman is really grasping. [/size]

 

[musette]

Bruyneel has already said he is willing to go all the way (to protect his own position) in this matter. During the recent Protour teams meeting, he sent a lawyer to attend on his behalf.

BTW, Basso is not stupid. He knows how DC is defending him, in sharp contrast to his CSC.

 

[limerickman]

But let's look at this closer.....

Tinkoff has just hired a doper attached to OP....... Tyler Hamilton. The Protour jerk off society has not said anything about that.

Well - it could be argued that Hamilton, who was found guilty and has served his ban, is entitled to return to the sport.
That's one interpretation.

But I agree - it doesn't help that a proven doper has been re-hired.

Riis talked to Basoo about hiring him back. The reason Basso and Riis did not come to terms had nothing to do with the "gentleman's agreement".

The UCI put the gun to Riis's head to terminate Basso's contract.
Cycle Sport reported this last month.

Now all the anti=Dscovery people are calling for heads to roll because Discovery has hired Basso, who has been released to ride by his federation. Discovery was not implimented in OP.

Basso shouldn't have been hired (by any team) until he's been exonerated.

Using the reasoning of the anti-Discovery group that Basso should not be hired because of his "involvment in OP", shouldn't T-Mobile and CSC also not be granted a license?

TMO and CSC dropped their riders when the OP case broke.
Therefore they have acted (at that time) in the correct manner.
The perception (at that time) was that OP's evidence was credible.

Unlike USPS/DC - who attempted to maintain the pretence that they were a clean team.

And anyone who gives the IPCT any credibility concerning doping matters with Patrick Lefévère as it's chairman is really grasping.

Regardless of who may be chairman - ICPT as an entity have taken a particular viewpoint in this matter.
The Chairman (I suspect) is only voicing the opinion of the grouping.

 

[wolfix]

Well - it could be argued that Hamilton, who was found guilty and has served his ban, is entitled to return to the sport.
That's one interpretation.

But I agree - it doesn't help that a proven doper has been re-hired.



The UCI put the gun to Riis's head to terminate Basso's contract.
Cycle Sport reported this last month.





Basso shouldn't have been hired (by any team) until he's been exonerated.



TMO and CSC dropped their riders when the OP case broke.
Therefore they have acted (at that time) in the correct manner.
The perception (at that time) was that OP's evidence was credible.

Unlike USPS/DC - who attempted to maintain the pretence that they were a clean team.





Regardless of who may be chairman - ICPT as an entity have taken a particular viewpoint in this matter.
The Chairman (I suspect) is only voicing the opinion of the grouping.

I may be wrong, but wasn't Hamilton's name attached to OP with a reciept for a money payment to the doctor? It's confusing at this point who is involved.

But the problem here is that punishing Discovery for breaking a gentleman's agreement when the other teams have not been punished for actually cheating does not sit right.

So TM and CSC cheated and took victories, but will not be punished, but Discovery gets punished because they hired a rider who has been exonerated by his federation.

If Basso/JU is not allowed to ride, CSC and TM should not be allowed to have a ProTour license. They profited if their riders were guilty.

TM and CSC only adopted this anti-doping stance when they were caught. TM did not have a clean rep when it came to doping. Both TM and CSC adopted the anti-doping agenda because of the sponsors pressure. Not once has Discovery had a rider suspended for doping. I'm not saying they are innocent, but their doping policy seems to be working to satify the UCI.

Who has to exonerate Basso for him to be considered not guilty of attachment to OP? Patrick Levevre?

 

[limerickman]

I may be wrong, but wasn't Hamilton's name attached to OP with a reciept for a money payment to the doctor? It's confusing at this point who is involved.

Hamilton was caught as part of Phonak enquiry with Santiago Perez.
There was also a problem with Hamiltons sample after the 2004 Olympics.
And Hamiltons name cropped up in OP.

But the ban he served is to do with Phonak doping case.

But the problem here is that punishing Discovery for breaking a gentleman's agreement when the other teams have not been punished for actually cheating does not sit right.

ICPT's going after DC because DC's refusal to sign up to the Ethics charter as part of the Pro-Tour and because Bruyneels changing stance on Basso.
(last June Bruyneel stated that Basso was persona non grata - but yet he signs him 4 months later).

So TM and CSC cheated and took victories, but will not be punished, but Discovery gets punished because they hired a rider who has been exonerated by his federation.

TM and CSC acted correctly (at the time) because Ullrich and Basso were implicated in a doping scandal.
They had to drop both riders.

DC's being cold shouldered because they didn't sign up to the Ethics Charter and they changed their stance on Basso.

TM and CSC only adopted this anti-doping stance when they were caught. TM did not have a clean rep when it came to doping.

Maybe.

But the fact is that when JU/Basso were implicated both teams acted.
And both teams have subsequently signed the Ethics Charter.

Not once has Discovery had a rider suspended for doping.

True.

When evidence of the riders cheating was brought to USPS/DC, they made all sorts of ludicrous allegations about conspiracies, WADA etc.
They even tried telling us that they rode clean - which is ironic given that Landis/Heras/Armstrong/Hamilton have all been shown to have doped.

Who has to exonerate Basso for him to be considered not guilty of attachment to OP? Patrick Levevre?

UCI.

 

[lwedge]

Disco again in disarray?

Professional cycling is in disarray!

 

[tcklyde]

Tinkoff has just hired a doper attached to OP....... Tyler Hamilton. The Protour jerk off society has not said anything about that.

Tinkoff is not and will not be -- at least next year -- a ProTour team.

Nonetheless, there is so some truth to both sides here. There is no reason to think the IPCT is being anything but petty. First of all, it's almost certain that most of the DS's know the full extent of the doping problem in the Pro ranks. In fact, most of them have a vested interest in keeping the truth safely covered up. Excluding Disco because of Basso is really smacks of sour grapes. Second, it seems far more likely that Disco was excluded because Bruyneel played coy on Basso over the summer and then grabbed him on a legalistic pretense as soon as he could in the Fall. But come on guys, it was perfectly clear that this was going to be Bruyneel's move. He had coveted Basso for years and when he started clearing Discovery's roster is was obvious that he was freeing up money to sign Basso. The other DSs should have seen it coming.

On the other hand, signing Basso was audacious and irresponsible -- and yes, I feel the same away about other teams signing dopers. Discovery has made it clear that it will not take a hard line on doping. This isn't a surprise to most people, but I guess it could be a blow to those who insist that the team is clean. The real icing on the cake was Lance saying the Basso was clean. Puh-leaze.

What it all comes down to, of course, is that no one wants to change. Sure, the teams will squabble amongst themselves, but come next year, all the contenders will be topped off with extra blood and all manner of PEDs. Maybe T-Mobile and Francaise des Jeux can be trusted. But what other teams have shown any resolve other than *****ing and moaning about Discovery or this or that other nonsense?

 

[fscyclist]

Tinkoff is not and will not be -- at least next year -- a ProTour team.

Nonetheless, there is so some truth to both sides here. There is no reason to think the IPCT is being anything but petty. First of all, it's almost certain that most of the DS's know the full extent of the doping problem in the Pro ranks. In fact, most of them have a vested interest in keeping the truth safely covered up. Excluding Disco because of Basso is really smacks of sour grapes. Second, it seems far more likely that Disco was excluded because Bruyneel played coy on Basso over the summer and then grabbed him on a legalistic pretense as soon as he could in the Fall. But come on guys, it was perfectly clear that this was going to be Bruyneel's move. He had coveted Basso for years and when he started clearing Discovery's roster is was obvious that he was freeing up money to sign Basso. The other DSs should have seen it coming.

On the other hand, signing Basso was audacious and irresponsible -- and yes, I feel the same away about other teams signing dopers. Discovery has made it clear that it will not take a hard line on doping. This isn't a surprise to most people, but I guess it could be a blow to those who insist that the team is clean. The real icing on the cake was Lance saying the Basso was clean. Puh-leaze.

What it all comes down to, of course, is that no one wants to change. Sure, the teams will squabble amongst themselves, but come next year, all the contenders will be topped off with extra blood and all manner of PEDs. Maybe T-Mobile and Francaise des Jeux can be trusted. But what other teams have shown any resolve other than *****ing and moaning about Discovery or this or that other nonsense?

Well said.

The one (and only) team that has impressed me after this season has been T-Mobile. Not only did they make it clear to their riders that doping would not be tolerated, but they also cleaned house among management. I'm excited to see how their team develops over the winter and as long as they stick to their word, I'll be cheering for them next season.

The other item I haven't quite understood is why Discovery (the corporation) allowed Basso's signing. From a simple risk:benefit analysis it just doesn't seem worthwhile. If he wins next year's tour, there is certainly positive publicity, but nothing like the positive publicity Lance was able to garner. In fact I still think Lance can garner more publicity for Disco in the US market by doing non-cycling activities (NY Marathon) than Basso ever can. The potential downside for signing Basso is enormous. OP is not over, and if Basso is found to be involved, it could be devastating, especially since they hired him while under scrutiny. It's a risky move, and not one a major corporation usually is willing to take in regards to PR/Advertising issues.

 

[Bro Deal]

There is no reason to think the IPCT is being anything but petty. First of all, it's almost certain that most of the DS's know the full extent of the doping problem in the Pro ranks. In fact, most of them have a vested interest in keeping the truth safely covered up.

I am not so sure of this anymore. I think the environment has changed and the sponsors and others are pressuring the UCI and the ProTour to clean up. Sure all the people in control were involved neck deep in doping during the last decade but I keep thinking of Dan Rostenkowski, the corrupt U.S. congressman. I remember reading a pundit's description of what brought him down. He said that Rostenkowski was not doing anything out of the ordinary for other congressman when he was elected to office but over time the poitical climate changed and new rules were enacted. The pundit described the situtation as the road turned but Rostenkowski kept going straight. Just like Rostenkowski, Disco is still going straight.

 

[Bro Deal]

I haven't heard anyone raise any issue to QS :I'll take it that your statement is your view of QS.

Of course not. That is the new Armstrong defense: He probably doped but everyone else was doing it too so it does not matter. Funny how just a year or two ago the same people parroting this defense were swearing up and down that Armstrong was white as snow. Somerhow in their minds, riders in the 70s and 80s using the occasional upper is equivalent to a GT mid-packer like Armstrong doping himself to Tour victories.

 

[tcklyde]

Well said.

The other item I haven't quite understood is why Discovery (the corporation) allowed Basso's signing. From a simple risk:benefit analysis it just doesn't seem worthwhile. If he wins next year's tour, there is certainly positive publicity, but nothing like the positive publicity Lance was able to garner. In fact I still think Lance can garner more publicity for Disco in the US market by doing non-cycling activities (NY Marathon) than Basso ever can. The potential downside for signing Basso is enormous. OP is not over, and if Basso is found to be involved, it could be devastating, especially since they hired him while under scrutiny. It's a risky move, and not one a major corporation usually is willing to take in regards to PR/Advertising issues.

This is a good point. They are giving Bruyneel and Lance a lot of latitude on signing. I suppose that perhaps they don't really care about the team so much as they care about having Lance, even in retirement.

Discovery Channel, at least in the States, doesn't have anything to gain from a European cycling team. Heck, all they televise are shows about building motorcycles and cheaply made shock documentaries. I don't know what their programming is like in Europe -- or even if their content is available...

 

[tcklyde]

I am not so sure of this anymore. I think the environment has changed and the sponsors and others are pressuring the UCI and the ProTour to clean up. Sure all the people in control were involved neck deep in doping during the last decade but I keep thinking of Dan Rostenkowski, the corrupt U.S. congressman. I remember reading a pundit's description of what brought him down. He said that Rostenkowski was not doing anything out of the ordinary for other congressman when he was elected to office but over time the poitical climate changed and new rules were enacted. The pundit described the situtation as the road turned but Rostenkowski kept going straight. Just like Rostenkowski, Disco is still going straight.

I really hope you're right -- and given all that's happened this year, certainly the road needs to curve. And you are certainly right that Disco is still going straight.

You know, if Discovery doesn't change, they will do a lot to force the other teams to keep doping -- or to at least look the other way. Lance may be a big cheat, but he is an innovator and he does push all his people, from teammates to designers at Trek. And without question he helped revolutionize doping during the TdF. The Vaughters / Andreau text messages suggest a very sophisticated operation: certainly organized within the team and involving transportation of blood occurring during the race. We're talking about giving nine guys blood transfusions (and Gosh knows what else) in secret while thousands and thousands of people are watching. If riders and teams aren't willing to take those kinds of risks and spend the money to organize a similarly structured operation and if they don't have the kind of commitment from their doctors and suppliers, they just aren't going to win against the teams that do.

Bruyneel / Ferrari / Basso are going to be ready to do it again in 2007. What about Cassie and Astana?

 

[pukka]

I really hope you're right -- and given all that's happened this year, certainly the road needs to curve. And you are certainly right that Disco is still going straight.

You know, if Discovery doesn't change, they will do a lot to force the other teams to keep doping -- or to at least look the other way. Lance may be a big cheat, but he is an innovator and he does push all his people, from teammates to designers at Trek. And without question he helped revolutionize doping during the TdF. The Vaughters / Andreau text messages suggest a very sophisticated operation: certainly organized within the team and involving transportation of blood occurring during the race. We're talking about giving nine guys blood transfusions (and Gosh knows what else) in secret while thousands and thousands of people are watching. If riders and teams aren't willing to take those kinds of risks and spend the money to organize a similarly structured operation and if they don't have the kind of commitment from their doctors and suppliers, they just aren't going to win against the teams that do.

Bruyneel / Ferrari / Basso are going to be ready to do it again in 2007. What about Cassie and Astana?

What's the phrase, ahh yes, 'extraordainary accusations require extraordinary proof', seems that little exists, so unless you want to appear in court, i'd zip it.

What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty, and hasn't Basso agreed to a DNA test!

Envy is the devil incarnate

 

[cyclingheroes]

I find it unbelieveable that people think it is good if a rider who is not convicted for anything should not be hired. Theo De Rooij makes perfectly clear why Basso should not be signed: image reasons. The Code of conduct is a marketing tool. That is also the reason why it was not a problem that Lampre signed Caruso or Saunier Duval signed Koldo Gil. Nobody cares, most people don't know them, so move om, exclude Discovery (with votes from the teams who signed Gil and Caruso). C'mon guys this makes the whole thing an even bigger desaster. I think it is fully ok that Discovery signed Basso. He is not convicted and it would be a really bad thing to sell an exclusion of riders like Basso as a good thing in the fight against doping. They need to respect the rules. If they don't do that, they are cheaters, just like the dopers are. Theo De Rooij told the truth today (cyclingnews), Basso should not race for image reasons. That is dangerous, marketing takes over from the sports justice system. This won't help the sport any further.


If the teams think, they need stronger or different rules they should pressure the UCI for stronger rules. The should clean up the UCI and their own teams.

Lim: Basso's contract was not terminated because of pressure from the UCI, it was the sponsor CSC (corporation) who made the pessure that made Riis terminating the contract with Basso. Riis does not really care what the UCI thinks.

 

[whiteboytrash]

No there is a massive difference between Gil/Caruso and Basso. For one Basso earns 50 times more than those two combined along with Basso earning millions in endorsements and other related off the bike activities. Basso like Armstrong before him championed himself on being Mr.Clean and earned money upon this perceived reputation. Therefore its fraud not just drug taking that he is involved in. This is what the IPCT are protecting themselves against. The DS’s have massive financial stakes in their teams along with the employment of 70+ people and they can’t afford to have one rider like Basso bringing them down ala Phonak. To suggest that Gil and Caruso are the same as Basso is outrageous. Do you really if either of them rode for Phonak and were embroiled in OP that iShares would have dropped out ? Of course not. Its when a high profile rider like Landis, Basso, Ullrich who have made millions of the back of their teams test positive or get caught up in dirty drugs wars that sponsors drop out, people lose their jobs and Director sportif’s have to deal with the fallout. Basso et al have a responsibility to their teams to behave with clear ethics and act as patrons of the peleton. Neither Basso nor Discovery have shown this.

I find it unbelieveable that people think it is good if a rider who is not convicted for anything should not be hired. Theo De Rooij makes perfectly clear why Basso should not be signed: image reasons. The Code of conduct is a marketing tool. That is also the reason why it was not a problem that Lampre signed Caruso or Saunier Duval signed Koldo Gil. Nobody cares, most people don't know them, so move om, exclude Discovery (with votes from the teams who signed Gil and Caruso). C'mon guys this makes the whole thing an even bigger desaster. I think it is fully ok that Discovery signed Basso. He is not convicted and it would be a really bad thing to sell an exclusion of riders like Basso as a good thing in the fight against doping. They need to respect the rules. If they don't do that, they are cheaters, just like the dopers are. Theo De Rooij told the truth today (cyclingnews), Basso should not race for image reasons. That is dangerous, marketing takes over from the sports justice system. This won't help the sport any further.



If the teams think, they need stronger or different rules they should pressure the UCI for stronger rules. The should clean up the UCI and their own teams.

Lim: Basso's contract was not terminated because of pressure from the UCI, it was the sponsor CSC (corporation) who made the pessure that made Riis terminating the contract with Basso. Riis does not really care what the UCI thinks.

 

[cyclingheroes]

Ah yeah. So in your opinion justice is to punish the rich and let the poor walk for the same crime. Welcome in banana republic.

No there is a massive difference between Gil/Caruso and Basso. For one Basso earns 50 times more than those two combined along with Basso earning millions in endorsements and other related off the bike activities. Basso like Armstrong before him championed himself on being Mr.Clean and earned money upon this perceived reputation. Therefore its fraud not just drug taking that he is involved in. This is what the IPCT are protecting themselves against. The DS’s have massive financial stakes in their teams along with the employment of 70+ people and they can’t afford to have one rider like Basso bringing them down ala Phonak. To suggest that Gil and Caruso are the same as Basso is outrageous. Do you really if either of them rode for Phonak and were embroiled in OP that iShares would have dropped out ? Of course not. Its when a high profile rider like Landis, Basso, Ullrich who have made millions of the back of their teams test positive or get caught up in dirty drugs wars that sponsors drop out, people lose their jobs and Director sportif’s have to deal with the fallout. Basso et al have a responsibility to their teams to behave with clear ethics and act as patrons of the peleton. Neither Basso nor Discovery have shown this.

 

[whiteboytrash]

This is not a case of "same evidence." The evidence at the time the teams voted this in, they did not know the evidence. Since then, Basso has been declared not guilty by the Italian authorities.

It is the same evidence. Bruyneel saw the dossier on Basso and along with the rest voted that he be ejected from the Tour. No new evidence had surfaced since the Tour on Basso. Why is he's stance different now ? Could you imagine the former Directors of Enron working for Microsoft whilst awaiting trial ? or The board of WorldCom working for Ford whilst awaiting trail ? Come on. They committed fraud just like Basso and co. This is why the US government introduced Sarbanes-Oxley act which is exactly what the IPCT is doing – creating an act to protect the investments and the people who are involved in cycling.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Ah yeah. So in your opinion justice is to punish the rich and let the poor walk for the same crime. Welcome in banana republic.

A banana republic is based upon government of a country not its judicial system. However in theory it has nothing to do with the classes but the impact of the crime. If Landis dopes and puts 70 people out of job then this is a worse crime than Gil who dopes and brings down only himself ? Yes it is. The same with politicians, judges, doctors and policeman. When you are in a privileged position of responsibility you must act accordingly or face the (harsher) consequences.

 

[Bro Deal]

No new evidence had surfaced since the Tour on Basso.

There has sort of. Basso made a laughable excuse as to inaccuracy of DNA that would have made O.J. Simpson whince. That convinced me he is guilty as hell.

Sevilla said that Ullirch was just as deeply involved as he was. I have little doubt that they were both clients of Fuentes Perhaps it is optimistic but I think the truth will eventually come out about the riders mixed up in OP. What happens if one of them wins the Tour next year and then the truth does leak out? Can the sport take another kick to the groin?

Disco's actions threaten to destroy the sport.