Disco/Active Bay excluded from IPCT meeting..

[cyclingheroes]

The UCI is the governing body of cycling not Mister Aldag, not Lefevere, not the IPCT. So it is a Banan republic since the UCI does nothing to stop these Butterheads of the IPCT.

A banana republic is based upon government of a country not its judicial system. However in theory it has nothing to do with the classes but the impact of the crime. If Landis dopes and puts 70 people out of job then this is a worse crime than Gil who dopes and brings down only himself ? Yes it is. The same with politicians, judges, doctors and policeman. When you are in a privileged position of responsibility you must act accordingly or face the (harsher) consequences.

 

[whiteboytrash]

There not trying to be the governing body, they are trying to protect themselves against riders who act outside the rules of the game.... why should the more wealthy and more powerful teams be able to pick up the riders when the likes of Ag2R lose them to salubrious activities ? This is not positive test they are trying to rule against but a protection of all the teams and for the teams to be treated as equals.

If the UCI want to charge Basso they can the IPCT is barring DC not Basso.

The UCI is the governing body of cycling not Mister Aldag, not Lefevere, not the IPCT. So it is a Banan republic since the UCI does nothing to stop these Butterheads of the IPCT.

 

[cyclingheroes]

There not trying to be the governing body, they are trying to protect themselves against riders who act outside the rules of the game.... why should the more wealthy and more powerful teams be able to pick up the riders when the likes of Ag2R lose them to salubrious activities ? This is not positive test they are trying to rule against but a protection of all the teams and for the teams to be treated as equals.

If the UCI want to charge Basso they can the IPCT is barring DC not Basso.

I am out of this discussion, I hope you will enjoy the sport by Mr. Whitewash Lefevere & co. Don't forget to cheer Koldo Gil and Luca Paolini. And say hello to the South Korean president, he likes bodies like the IPCT.

 

[helmutRoole2]

Oh, B.S. DNA is used in the U.S. for civil case all the time...

The ones calling for Basso's exclusion will have the last laugh. All the OP cases have only been cleared, or maybe more accurately tabled, because the Spanish authorities have forbidden use of the evidence while the Fuentes case is ongoing. But that case will eventually come to trial or be dropped, and then the flood gates will open. The UCI, the GTs, and the IPCT know this. It is only a matter of time before the other shoe drops. They are just trying to mitigate the fallout that will ensue.

The ProTour is making it very clear to the race organizers that there will be no recriminations if suspected riders are prevented from racing. They are giving the green light. All it will take to get rid of Basso from the Tour is the smallest leak from the Spanish investigation, and leaks have a way of increasing as trial dates near and they are always most likely when they will get the most press, like right before the Tour or Giro. I am betting we will see a new surge of information sometime between April and June.

So true ref. DNA. If people extract themselves emotionally and work it through their heads they're come to the logical conclusion that DNA testing is no more, likely less, invasive than pissing in a cup.

Now, as for Basso, I can't understand why Disco would signed him knowing what you, Bro, stated. They've got to know that if this is headed towards a standard conclusion then all the evidence will sooner or later be heard.

Unless.... Oh my gosh. Do they know something we don't?

What could it be?

 

[whiteboytrash]

I am out of this discussion, I hope you will enjoy the sport by Mr. Whitewash Lefevere & co. Don't forget to cheer Koldo Gil and Luca Paolini. And say hello to the South Korean president, he likes bodies like the IPCT.

If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen !

The thing is all the its not Lefevere & co. its all the ProTour teams voting... isn't that a democracy ? Beside Bruyneel didn't even turn up... shows how much he gives a stuff about it...... and one further point is DC is not even barred yet... they passed a motion on their plan to do it and asked Bruyneel to offer his defence at January's meeting... what's not fair about that ?

 

[wicklow200]

There not trying to be the governing body, they are trying to protect themselves against riders who act outside the rules of the game.... why should the more wealthy and more powerful teams be able to pick up the riders when the likes of Ag2R lose them to salubrious activities ?

Look, that's business. And sport! Richer teams rob/steal/entice the better riders/players etc with promise of greater salaries/bonuses and more success. It happens in almost every professional code. Its reduces the winning chances of smaller teams. But its hardly something to cry over.

And as far as I can see each of the parties is in this for what he can get. The riders, GTs, IPCT teams. So whenever Lefevre speaks, the words, pot, kettle, and black come to mind.

Teams have the most to blame. As a result of their dependance on sponsors, and a sponsor's right to want success, doping becomes a weapon of a DS. So its completely ridiculous to say that Patrik Lefevre or any other DS should be either a judge or jury on the current ethical issues in cycling, whether it be defending the financial rights of other teams or "protecting" the peleton from dopers.

 

[helmutRoole2]

Do you honestly think it (the sport of cycling) can survive as an international doping ring? Sponsors are already pulling out.

Many other sports are thriving as international doping rings/entertainment. I don't agree with Wolf stated ref DNA testing, but on his point ref. let them dope... I won't say no-holds-barred, but they need to ease up. They're killing the sport. Most who follow sport (sport in general) understand that doping practices happen. The rest can live in wonderland.

"Remember that sport cycling?"

"Yeah, there were so many dopers it just finally went away."

Cycling is no worse than any other sport when it comes to doping. It's problem is, it's addressing the problem.

It really is a conundrum.

 

[helmutRoole2]

Look, that's business. And sport! Richer teams rob/steal/entice the better riders/players etc with promise of greater salaries/bonuses and more success. It happens in almost every professional code. Its reduces the winning chances of smaller teams. But its hardly something to cry over.

And as far as I can see each of the parties is in this for what he can get. The riders, GTs, IPCT teams. So whenever Lefevre speaks, the words, pot, kettle, and black come to mind.

Teams have the most to blame. As a result of their dependance on sponsors, and a sponsor's right to want success, doping becomes a weapon of a DS. So its completely ridiculous to say that Patrik Lefevre or any other DS should be either a judge or jury on the current ethical issues in cycling, whether it be defending the financial rights of other teams or "protecting" the peleton from dopers.

Yep, but they're going to do it anyway because that is the way the game is played today. As if Lefevre never heard of doping. "Riders doping? What?"

The doping card: you play it when you want to **** a team or a rider up. Problem is, one day it'll come back on you. There's plenty of mutually assured destruction to go around.

 

[cyclingheroes]

If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen !

The thing is all the its not Lefevere & co. its all the ProTour teams voting... isn't that a democracy ? Beside Bruyneel didn't even turn up... shows how much he gives a stuff about it...... and one further point is DC is not even barred yet... they passed a motion on their plan to do it and asked Bruyneel to offer his defence at January's meeting... what's not fair about that ?

I can stand the heat, but I am interested in a future for the sport, not in wasting my time. The IPCT is a business club and they are destroying their business. DC is not the problem of the sport, the problem is that the sport is very bad governt. The IPCT won't do it better, it is a club of sharks.

 

[whiteboytrash]

ummm not really.... American football, Australian football, rugby league, baseball etc. have a draft system where by the lowest team has first pick of new players or players leaving there old clubs..... this way the richer if at the top of the their respective tables chose last regardless of the amount of money they have.... lower clubs can trade their draft picks for money if they want which makes them richer..... so no its not the same.... IPCT in effect is protecting the teams for the lack of a draft system..... remember the IPCT barred Saiz/Activebay as well due to the UCI not being able to do it.... is that not fair also ? Saiz hasn't been charged with anything as yet.......

Look, that's business. And sport! Richer teams rob/steal/entice the better riders/players etc with promise of greater salaries/bonuses and more success. It happens in almost every professional code. Its reduces the winning chances of smaller teams. But its hardly something to cry over.

And as far as I can see each of the parties is in this for what he can get. The riders, GTs, IPCT teams. So whenever Lefevre speaks, the words, pot, kettle, and black come to mind.

Teams have the most to blame. As a result of their dependance on sponsors, and a sponsor's right to want success, doping becomes a weapon of a DS. So its completely ridiculous to say that Patrik Lefevre or any other DS should be either a judge or jury on the current ethical issues in cycling, whether it be defending the financial rights of other teams or "protecting" the peleton from dopers.

 

[BottleCage]

Cycling is no worse than any other sport when it comes to doping. It's problem is, it's addressing the problem.

So very true

MLB, NFL, NBA, Tennis, Football, Atheletics and even Pro golf. They just pay lip service in front of the cameras and do nothing about it. If these sports tested the atheletes as per cyclings standard. (not only type of test but frequency.)

I heard somewhere the average pro cyclists is tested between 10 - 20 times a year minimium. While a GT contenders are tested even more often. I read something like 50+ times a year for people like Lance, Ivan, and Jan. Ok granted everyday in the GT leaders jersey you are tested so they could undergo 10-15 tests in a single GT but still a test every few weeks.

 

[patch70]

A prime example are Padrnos and Noval. They serve very defined, but important, functions on the DC TdF team and will do that again in 2007.

Are you saying that they're going to be dropped on every Cat 4 or higher climb again?

 

[limerickman]

It's a chicken and egg situation.

ICPT have made the correct moves in trying to create the perception that the sport is trying to clean up the sport.
Some teams such as DC are resistant to change - they don't want to see doping rules enforced.
Of course, DC's attitude was encouraged and assisted by the UCI's own ambiguous stance on doping.

Now that sponsors are leaving the sport and removing money from funding racings, the UCI's ambiguity has begun to dissolve somewhat.
The UCI's under pressure to be seen to clean up the sport - not because cleaning the sport up is the correct thing to do, but because sponsors don't want their products associated with liars/cheats and dopers.

Teams like DC have failed to see that the lights have changed.
The ICPT have managed to grasp the fact that UCI's view has changed.

We can argue the efficacy of whether or not Lefevere is a reformed character until the sheep come home.
Fact is the ICPT are trying to be seen to clean up the sport - and that is a good thing.

 

[linenoiz]

Now that sponsors are leaving the sport and removing money from funding racings, the UCI's ambiguity has begun to dissolve somewhat.
The UCI's under pressure to be seen to clean up the sport - not because cleaning the sport up is the correct thing to do, but because sponsors don't want their products associated with liars/cheats and dopers.

Teams like DC have failed to see that the lights have changed.
The ICPT have managed to grasp the fact that UCI's view has changed.

Yes the sport as a whole is suffering, but if DSC is looking totally selfish, and let's no kid ourselves THEY ARE, then what to do they care what happens to the other teams.

Discovery Channel seems to be ok with the team, and is sponsoring them. As long as Bruneel has a sponsor, he will do what it takes to win. If his sponsor believes that winning is worth the risk, then they will support him. Yes they are probably crooked, but they have done a good job protecting their riders (so far), and its hard to argue with success.

The UCI's days are numbered and until there is a good Governing body and system in place, nothing will ever change. In fact I am not sure they are fighting a winable battle. The American sport bodies (football/baseball), have basically taken a lax approach to doping. Yes people are caught every year, but they only seem to be banned for a month or two and they are back.

Some how people seem to go on about the lives. The sponsor's are happy because the negitive press is kept down, and life goes on. The problem with cycling, is every team is trying to get an advantage and there is nothing keeping them from doing it. They attack each other in hopes that they will have a leg up in the next race.

Bruneel was the first to say lets not allow the OP people in the TDF. Why did he say that, because he wanted a better chance to win. He could care less about the case, he just wanted better odds. Now that Basso is with him, he will defend Basso to the death. It's just looking out for yourself.

So very Sad that this is what cycling has come down to, but thats all it is. Straight out greed and winning, plain and simple.

I can sit here and compalin all I want right now, but let's face it when the racing starts, All eyes will be glued to the screen, and we'll be cheering like everyone else. Considering I have followed DSC for years, I'll probably still cheer for them, even if Basso is on the team.

 

[wolfix]

ICPT have made the correct moves in trying to create the perception that the sport is trying to clean up the sport.
Some teams such as DC are resistant to change - they don't want to see doping rules enforced.

We have to remember that it was not DC that had riders associated with OP. Discovery has not had any riders while employed with the team convicted for doping. None of their riders have ever been banned from a race.
And how do you come to the conclusion that Discovery does not want doping rules enforced?
If CSC wanted the sport cleaned up of riders like Basso, why did Riis want him back. They talked. Riis admitted he would have hired Basso back if Basso had give CSC the same DNA permission he gave Discovery.
No matter how hard the anti-LA people try and make Discovery the evil team, it never sticks.

Now that sponsors are leaving the sport and removing money from funding racings, the UCI's ambiguity has begun to dissolve somewhat.
The UCI's under pressure to be seen to clean up the sport - not because cleaning the sport up is the correct thing to do, but because sponsors don't want their products associated with liars/cheats and dopers.

Basso has a new sponsor in the sunglass field. Other then Phanok, who else has left the sport? It seems to me teams and sponsors are begging to be a llicensed ProTour Team.

Teams like DC have failed to see that the lights have changed.
The ICPT have managed to grasp the fact that UCI's view has changed.

Teams like Discovery see teams like TM and CSC have gotten their hands caught in the cookie jar. The ICPT will grumble a little more, then we will see nothing changed. Do you think CSC would be maintaining the same stance today if Basso wanted to ride for Riis?
And the simple fact that the ICPT has Patrick L as its chairman is laughable. He snubbed his nose at the UCI when he hired Johan Museeuw and Rihard V.
The sport is in trouble because of guys like Patrick L, not Discovery who has a clean record of not having any convictions concerning doping.

We can argue the efficacy of whether or not Lefevere is a reformed character until the sheep come home.
Fact is the ICPT are trying to be seen to clean up the sport - and that is a good thing.

And so we punish Discovery who has never had a convicted rider and Basso who was cleared by his Italian Federation and that was good enough for the UCI. Who else should clear Basso? He has had the evidence looked at, and was cleared to ride.

 

[helmutRoole2]

ICPT have made the correct moves in trying to create the perception that the sport is trying to clean up the sport.
Some teams such as DC are resistant to change - they don't want to see doping rules enforced.
Of course, DC's attitude was encouraged and assisted by the UCI's own ambiguous stance on doping.

Lim, you have to see this from the American perspective. On this board, there are many Americans knowledgeable of the sport, but on a whole -- as you likely understand -- Americans could give a rat's ass about cycling. They like Lance due to the story and the fact that he kicked some euro ass, but the sport of cycling? Na. We could care less over here.

And so, when doping is hitting the front pages over there, it's hitting page 4c here. And when it hits 4c there, it's not hitting here at all. So Disco can say **** you to the ICPT and hire Basso. And when they do, the money will roll in, the Discovery Channel affiliates will cover the Tour and there will be some passing mention of Basso having some trouble with maybe there was a someone said and something about his dog, bla, bla, bla... Cycling has run it's course here in the states. All the small programs that benefitted from Lance, all the reasonably big time races like SFGP, TofGa, TofCalif., are slowly going to go away.

Sorry Americans. No Lance, no cycling here in the states. No one rides recreationally. No one encourages their kids to. No one rides to work. No one in the states relates.

Cycling as a sport in the states is a sideshow at best.

 

[limerickman]

We have to remember that it was not DC that had riders associated with OP. Discovery has not had any riders while employed with the team convicted for doping. None of their riders have ever been banned from a race.
And how do you come to the conclusion that Discovery does not want doping rules enforced?
.

DC/USPS retention of the services of Michele Ferrari.
DC/USPS's support of Michele Ferrari while on trial in Italy.
DC/USPS's failed doping tests at the 1999 TDF.
DC/USPS's failure to support the Ethics Charter in mid-2006.

Just some instances of DC/USPS stance on doping and their failure to combat doping in cycling.

If CSC wanted the sport cleaned up of riders like Basso, why did Riis want him back. They talked. Riis admitted he would have hired Basso back if Basso had give CSC the same DNA permission he gave Discovery.

Basso was under contract to CSC when OP broke.
CSC withdrew Basso from riding - which is different to breaking their contract with Basso.

The fact of the matter is that the UCI (Pat McQuaid) told Riis that Basso would not be cleared to cycle by the UCI - despite the Italian Cycling Federations restoration of Basso's racing licence.

And the simple fact that the ICPT has Patrick L as its chairman is laughable. He snubbed his nose at the UCI when he hired Johan Museeuw and Rihard V.
The sport is in trouble because of guys like Patrick L, not Discovery who has a clean record of not having any convictions concerning doping.

Lefevere isn't a paragon of virtue - I agree.
But Lefevere is Chairman of the ICPT : he is the conduit for expressing the opinions of the ICPT membership.
Lefevere's didn't go off on a solo run when he said DC were not being included in the ICPT. ICPT as a body took the decision not to include DC.
Lefevere's comment was that of the ICPT group.

Basso has a new sponsor in the sunglass field. Other then Phanok, who else has left the sport? It seems to me teams and sponsors are begging to be a llicensed ProTour Team.

.

Who's left the sport ?
We have had sponsors leave the sport : Kelme, Phonak, Liberty - to name some.
We have had teams adopting DNA rule in order to try to level the playing field - and to show their sponsors that they're serious about anti-doping.

We have also seen sponsors refusing to fund races : corporate sponsors have left the sport in recent times and several well known stages races have been threatened to be dropped because sponsorship money is drying up.

 

[limerickman]

Lim, you have to see this from the American perspective. On this board, there are many Americans knowledgeable of the sport, but on a whole -- as you likely understand -- Americans could give a rat's ass about cycling. They like Lance due to the story and the fact that he kicked some euro ass, but the sport of cycling? Na. We could care less over here.

I can see several American perspectives stated on this site.
Of course there are some genuine cycling fans from the USA here - but you're correct the majority of so called "American fans" here, haven't got a clue.

Fact is that the sport is huge here in Europe - as it always was and as it will continue to be in the future regardless of the level of American involvement in the sport.

And so, when doping is hitting the front pages over there, it's hitting page 4c here. And when it hits 4c there, it's not hitting here at all. So Disco can say **** you to the ICPT and hire Basso. .

I think that this is part of the problem HR2.

It appears that a lot of American sport is premised upon doping.
From what I read NFL, NBA, Baseball, Athletics is saturated in doping.
Given Cyclings history - it seems that some Americans feel comfortable in a sport where doping is allowed to proliferate (under the ausopices of the UCI), given that most American sport appears to turn a blind eye to doping anyhow.

Sorry Americans. No Lance, no cycling here in the states. No one rides recreationally. No one encourages their kids to. No one rides to work. No one in the states relates.

Cycling as a sport in the states is a sideshow at best.

That is a pity.
The guys like LeMond and Hampsten, Phinney etc laid a pretty good foundation for the sport in your country.
Of course that legacy has been tarnished by Armstrong, Hamilton and now Landis.
Which is a pity for the genuine US cycling fan, i think.

 

[whiteboytrash]

although it sounds like you Yanks don't care but if you don't get invited to any races how can you win any races ?? The Tour of Denmark joins the fight... hey this thing is snowballing ! what next...?
___

"Basso's not welcome, and neither do we want Discovery to take part if they pursue this policy. Discovery has gotten themselves quite a number of minus points for signing Basso while he still is under suspicion. The fact alone that DS Bruyneel says they have four lawyers looking at things shows that he is in doubt. And if you are in doubt, let it be," said Worre.
Worre also does not want Tinkoff or LPR to take part in the Tour of Denmark. Both teams have signed riders who are involved in doping cases. Tinkoff have taken on board Tyler Hamilton who was banned for two years for blood doping, and also have been alleged to be negotiating with Ullrich, whereas LPR have taken on Jose Gutierrez, who has also come under suspicion during Operación Puerto.

"They have asked nicely if they can take part, but they got 'no' as an answer. We will not have a team who has a rider who to all appearances is involved in the doping case Fuentes," Worre told Danish news agency Ritzau.

Lim, you have to see this from the American perspective. On this board, there are many Americans knowledgeable of the sport, but on a whole -- as you likely understand -- Americans could give a rat's ass about cycling. They like Lance due to the story and the fact that he kicked some euro ass, but the sport of cycling? Na. We could care less over here.

And so, when doping is hitting the front pages over there, it's hitting page 4c here. And when it hits 4c there, it's not hitting here at all. So Disco can say **** you to the ICPT and hire Basso. And when they do, the money will roll in, the Discovery Channel affiliates will cover the Tour and there will be some passing mention of Basso having some trouble with maybe there was a someone said and something about his dog, bla, bla, bla... Cycling has run it's course here in the states. All the small programs that benefitted from Lance, all the reasonably big time races like SFGP, TofGa, TofCalif., are slowly going to go away.

Sorry Americans. No Lance, no cycling here in the states. No one rides recreationally. No one encourages their kids to. No one rides to work. No one in the states relates.

Cycling as a sport in the states is a sideshow at best.

 

[whiteboytrash]

...more scary news from Holczer: He further added, "The UCI is not holding itself back in the Fuentes scandal, as many people seem to think. I have the impression they are doing a lot. I think we will be hearing some interesting things from them very soon."

....and Rassa has a dip at Basso as well: "It is irritating that the legal aspects are unsolved, and that the gentleman's agreement that all ProTour-teams have consented to is circumvented as soon as a prominent rider is involved who also has the potential to win the Tour de France. It is irritating that not everyone has equal rights," Rasmussen told the Danish TV station DR.