Disco/Active Bay excluded from IPCT meeting..

[wicklow200]

although it sounds like you Yanks don't care but if you don't get invited to any races how can you win any races ?? The Tour of Denmark joins the fight... hey this thing is snowballing ...

Yes it is snowballing. It could get out of control for DSC as you predicted

JUst one footnote about these latest comments from Tour of Denmark organisers. Isn't CSC nominally a Danish team? So this is their national tour. And Basso left CSC.

So slight conflict of interest for Tour of D organisers when commenting on Basso, eh?

 

[Eldron]

Yes it is snowballing. It could get out of control for DSC as you predicted

JUst one footnote about these latest comments from Tour of Denmark organisers. Isn't CSC nominally a Danish team? So this is their national tour. And Basso left CSC.

So slight conflict of interest for Tour of D organisers when commenting on Basso, eh?

Basso/Disco being excluded from anything is the equivalent of being accused of sexual harassment, being forced not to work, being found innocent by the national harassment board, not being allowed to work by your company and being scourned by other companies...

The Italian Cycling Federation found him innocent - UCI should respect that or at least allow the guy to race until they have CONCRETE evidence. This whole guilty until proven innocent ideal is really pissing me off.

They even want to exclude Tinkoff Systems because they hired an ex doper that has served his time (Hamilton).

They're the ones killing the sport - not the dopers.

Right now marketing and image are more important than logic, human rights and law. Pathetic.

 

[BottleCage]

Basso will ride which ever races he likes why because it will bring more exposure to the race. And that brings money. The other teams are mad about DSC signing Basso but I would bet they all would love to have him on their team if they could afford him.

I don't think Basso wanted to ride for Riis after he (Riis) turned his back on him. I believe Riis was just as involved a Basso with OP and was trying to save his own butt at the expense of his star. Interestily two of Riis' three GT contenders for Riis (Hamilton, Basso) both were on the OP lists and where supposedly doping while with CSC according to the files. Coincidence? Maybe Riis introduced them to Fuentes.

Regardless the ones who are yelling the loudest are the ones who are set to gain the most by having Basso's banned. Lefevere is just a nut case he will defend Bettini who makes a statement like it is against our civil rights to be required to take a DNA test. Bettini what are you hiding? Lefevere is just using smoke and mirrors to distract attention away from his own dubious connections and to appear concerned about doping. hahaha I wonder if QS has a DNA clause in their rider contracts.

I really wish Fuentes would spill all the beans but it would probably cost him his life from what I have read about the football clubs involved and that he has already received death threats. (I don't think the death threats came from cycling fans.)

 

[wicklow200]

FdJ dont belong to the IPCT junta. Perhaps because its just a quote-unquote business group

Eurosport - Jeremy Stahl - 11/12/2006 16:42
The International Professional Cycling Teams group, headed by Quick Step boss Patrick Lefévère, has voted to ban Discovery Channel.

The decision was made as a result of Discovery's signing of Tour of Italy winner Ivan Basso, who was implicated in the Operation Puerto doping investigation but has since been cleared to race.

"For Discovery Channel, it is a question of respect of the regulations," a source who attended the meeting in Brussels told AFP.

"The ethical code is clear: There can be no question of a ProTour team signing a rider implicated in the Puerto business."

The business group IPCT is represented by every team on the UCI ProTour with the exception of Française des Jeux.

At Friday's meeting Caisse d'Épargne was the only team absent with Discovery represented by an attorney.

The IPCT also reportedly agreed to support a proposal to reduce the number of squads in the ProTour from 20 to 18, a major request from the three Grand Tours.

 

[cyclingheroes]

Well the IPCT was founded for the Pro-Tour. The organizers of the Grand Tours decided officially now to leave the Pro-Tour (Yesterday) and have another meeting today (with the federations of Belgium, France, Spain, Italy, Luxembourg and Austria) to set up a new calender.


The IPCT is irrelevant now.

 

[whiteboytrash]

They even want to exclude Tinkoff Systems because they hired an ex doper that has served his time (Hamilton).

...ummmm...... I'll think you'll find that USADA has a dossier from the UCI on Hamilton from the Fuentes case.... so he is under investigation like Basso and the other junkies....

 

[whiteboytrash]

Well the IPCT was founded for the Pro-Tour. The organizers of the Grand Tours decided officially now to leave the Pro-Tour (Yesterday) and have another meeting today (with the federations of Belgium, France, Spain, Italy, Luxembourg and Austria) to set up a new calender.


The IPCT is irrelevant now.

...not so fast. They voted to break away in 2008 so there is still one more year to go of ProTour. Along with the caveat of "The details of these criteria will be announced before March 1, 2007, after consultation with the teams and riders"; Which means they will consult with the IPCT..... and the riders union which was also set up by the UCI for the ProTour.....

what is irrelevant now is the drug users like Basso and his junkie mates....

 

[wicklow200]

what is irrelevant now is the drug users like Basso and his junkie mates....

I hate to remind you but, as we know by now, that means most of the peleton

 

[poulidor]

Basso will ride which ever races he likes why because it will bring more exposure to the race. And that brings money. The other teams are mad about DSC signing Basso but I would bet they all would love to have him on their team if they could afford him.

No, some teams do'nt want to have involved in doping riders, because of the pressure of their sponsors, their federations... Cycling is moving to less doping but not all are ready to move.

I really wish Fuentes would spill all the beans but it would probably cost him his life from what I have read about the football clubs involved and that he has already received death threats. (I don't think the death threats came from cycling fans.)

2005 Real Madrid budget : 350M euros
TV for next 7 years : 800M (or maybe 1,100M) euros
Following disguised matched, the major Italian football club Juventus was punished by playing in "Serie B". If Juve comes back to serie A next year, Juve will lose at least 180M euros along 3 years...
A similar issue could happen to Real, Barça, Seville or Valence !!!
It's around 300,000 to 400,000 Spanish club fans, but fans of Ronaldhino, Ronaldo, Bechkam, Zidane ,... around 200,000,000 people in the world.

 

[helmutRoole2]

It appears that a lot of American sport is premised upon doping. From what I read NFL, NBA, Baseball, Athletics is saturated in doping. Given Cyclings history - it seems that some Americans feel comfortable in a sport where doping is allowed to proliferate (under the ausopices of the UCI), given that most American sport appears to turn a blind eye to doping anyhow.

American sports aren't premised on doping, but what your seeing on the court and on the field of play is fueled by it. I think American's have a vague notion that doping is going on, but here in America, we love our freedom almost as much as we love our money. And when freedom (freedom to dope) leads to more money, then why bother stopping it.

Look, American sports are doing fine with doping. There really is no need to put a stop to it. So when a euro sport that we don't care about is labeled as a dopers' sport, no one really cares. I mean, you can't care about sport that you don't care about. If it does anything here in the states -- and this is going hack off some of my fellow Americans -- it legitimizes it. Cycling here isn't only looked on as a non-sport, but it's regarded with derision. American sports are predicated on power. Cyclists in this country are regarded as a bunch of skinny faggots dressed up for bath house. Where you see a beautiful peloton, most Americans see a gay pride parade. In the vast, vast majority of work places across this great country, if your sports topic of conversation is cycling, well then buddy, you must be taking one in the ass.

That's our culture to a great extent. Hey, let's face it. In most of the cases, the early settlers of this country were thrown out of Europe for being religious nut jobs. The strong survived with force. Everyone else perished. In this country, we kick ass and take names. Not the other way around.

"Who is this person? Does he need his ass kicked?"

"I don't know. Kick his ass, ask him what his name is and then decide."

Damn, I'm on a rant.

 

[Rolfrae]

American sports aren't premised on doping, but what your seeing on the court and on the field of play is fueled by it. I think American's have a vague notion that doping is going on, but here in America, we love our freedom almost as much as we love our money. And when freedom (freedom to dope) leads to more money, then why bother stopping it.

Look, American sports are doing fine with doping. There really is no need to put a stop to it. So when a euro sport that we don't care about is labeled as a dopers' sport, no one really cares. I mean, you can't care about sport that you don't care about. If it does anything here in the states -- and this is going hack off some of my fellow Americans -- it legitimizes it. Cycling here isn't only looked on as a non-sport, but it's regarded with derision. American sports are predicated on power. Cyclists in this country are regarded as a bunch of skinny faggots dressed up for bath house. Where you see a beautiful peloton, most Americans see a gay pride parade. In the vast, vast majority of work places across this great country, if your sports topic of conversation is cycling, well then buddy, you must be taking one in the ass.

That's our culture to a great extent. Hey, let's face it. In most of the cases, the early settlers of this country were thrown out of Europe for being religious nut jobs. The strong survived with force. Everyone else perished. It's reflected in our culture: sports, politics and religion.

That's not just an American way of thinking, it's Anglo Saxon. The same can be said of the British and Australian publics' perceptions.

 

[davidbod]

Do my eyes decieve me or is this not the same crowd of people on this forum who were wondering and hoping that Jan Ullrich would get a spot on a team somewhere for next year. And what would have been the reaction by these hypocrites if he had got a contract or does in the future. And what would be the reaction if the teams tried to exclude Jan. Just more confirmation of what we allready know to be the state of hypocrasy on this forum.

 

[helmutRoole2]

That's not just an American way of thinking, it's Anglo Saxon. The same can be said of the British and Australian publics' perceptions.

I don't know. I've never spent any time over there, but you won't have any trouble convincing me that there's a bunch of jackasses over there too.

 

[Rolfrae]

I don't know. I've never spent any time over there, but you won't have any trouble convincing me that there's a bunch of jackasses over there too.

We're all jackasses, especially the gay cycling freak jackasses among us

 

[Leafer]

Basso/Disco being excluded from anything is the equivalent of being accused of sexual harassment, being forced not to work, being found innocent by the national harassment board, not being allowed to work by your company and being scourned by other companies...

The Italian Cycling Federation found him innocent - UCI should respect that or at least allow the guy to race until they have CONCRETE evidence. This whole guilty until proven innocent ideal is really pissing me off.

They even want to exclude Tinkoff Systems because they hired an ex doper that has served his time (Hamilton).

They're the ones killing the sport - not the dopers.

Right now marketing and image are more important than logic, human rights and law. Pathetic.

Race organizers have every right to be able to pick and choose who they want competing in their race, and if they don't want suspected or known dopers there, it's well within their right to exclude those teams.

Here's a thought: if you want to be invited to a race, don't sign implicated and known dopers.

 

[alfeng]

Race organizers have every right to be able to pick and choose who they want competing in their race, and if they don't want suspected or known dopers there, it's well within their right to exclude those teams.

Here's a thought: if you want to be invited to a race, don't sign implicated and known dopers.

Organisers of big three tours break ranks with ProTour

MADRID, Dec 13 (Reuters) - The big three European tours have broken ranks with world cycling governing body the UCI and decided to set their own conditions for participation outside the auspices of its ProTour circuit.

Organisers of the Tour de France, Giro d'Italia and the Tour of Spain (Vuelta) issued a statement on Tuesday saying that they wanted to return to a "more open sporting model" and no longer wanted to be bound by the restrictions of the UCI's ProTour.

They said that in order to minimise disruption, next year's races would be open to the 18 teams with ProTour licences, but that future editions would be determined principally by results over the previous two seasons.

Teams would not be obliged to participate in the races as they are at present and the organisers reserved the right to reject the application of any rider or team member whose presence might "prejudice the image of the race".

The organisers of the Tour, Giro and Vuelta said their decision would also affect other high-profile events including the Paris-Nice, Milan-San Remo, Tirreno-Adriatico, Paris-Roubaix and La Fleche Wallone, Liege-Bastogne-Liege, Paris-Tours and Tour of Lombardy.

The ProTour, which was open only to the elite cycling teams, started in 2005 with 30 races, including the big three tours, forming part of the circuit.

The venture did away with the World Cup circuit and introduced a new set of rankings based on results in the ProTour events.

It was an attempt to make cycling more attractive and at the same time to clean up the image of the sport.

However, the initiative has been plagued by a series of disagreements between the UCI, organisers of the big tours, teams and national federations.

Updated on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 5:40 am ​

http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=reu-tours&prov=reuters&type=lgns

V

 

[IH8LANCE]

Here's a thought: if you want to be invited to a race, don't sign implicated and known dopers.

The "known" dopers I can agree with, but the "implicated" dopers I have a philosophical problem with. These days you can mark someone as a "suspected" doper just by having his dog's nickname scribbled into a notebook. Think about it. Neither Basso nor Ullrich have ever failed a drug test, nor has anyone ever said that they have witnessed them doping up, and the task force set up to investigate their possible involvement in the Puerto affair has indicated no charges are imminent. Yet Ullrich was expelled from his team and Basso is a pariah.

And now the "shunning" has been taken to another even more ridiculous level. Based on the violation of an alleged "gentlemen's agreement", there is a movement to keep Basso's entire team from racing. Do any of you people know what a "gentlemen's agreement" is? That's code word for "unenforceable agreement". It means it doesn't legally exist. What's happening now is that there's a bunch of disgruntled idiots who realized too late that Discovery pulled a coup by signing Basso, and now they want to punish them for it because they didn't think of it first.

There's a reason for the "innocent until proven guilty" presumption that works so well in certain countries in the world. It prohibits people from having their rights taken away from them until they get due process. In their froth-at-the-mouth frenzy to respond to the doping scandals, cycling is cannabalizing itself by allowing the zealots to keep popular cyclists off the bike and out of the premier events on the basis of nothing more than suspicion.

The hilarious part of all this (or maybe it's the sad part -- depends on perspective) is that most everyone agrees that "they all dope and everyone knows it". So the end result of all this is that only the unlucky ones who test positive, and the good ones who are natural targets for vague allegations, are the scapegoats for a system that's corrupt from top to bottom. So you have races with substandard fields and fans who grumble about it.

Frankly, I don't see who benefits from all of this nonsense. Riders should be permitted to race until a tribunal finds them guilty of something. There is no way to enforce a ban on "suspected" riders, because then you leave it to some individual's interpretation of what constitutes reasonable suspicion. And of course, there is the substantial issue of fairness. It's not fair to ban someone from riding because of a notebook found somewhere or because someone badmouthed you -- not until some finder of fact determines that there is proof of wrongdoing.

Otherwise, you get ridiculous situations where people are actually considering withholding entire teams from racing in events based upon an unenforceable agreement not to sign a rider who has not been charged with anything.

Professional cycling has two major problems: doping, and the lazy idiots who would respond to the crisis by throwing due process out the window. If you want to clean up the sport but you can't prove a suspected rider guilty of anything, that ought to be your problem, not his.

 

[foxvi]

The "known" dopers I can agree with, but the "implicated" dopers I have a philosophical problem with. These days you can mark someone as a "suspected" doper just by having his dog's nickname scribbled into a notebook. Think about it. Neither Basso nor Ullrich have ever failed a drug test, nor has anyone ever said that they have witnessed them doping up, and the task force set up to investigate their possible involvement in the Puerto affair has indicated no charges are imminent. Yet Ullrich was expelled from his team and Basso is a pariah.

And now the "shunning" has been taken to another even more ridiculous level. Based on the violation of an alleged "gentlemen's agreement", there is a movement to keep Basso's entire team from racing. Do any of you people know what a "gentlemen's agreement" is? That's code word for "unenforceable agreement". It means it doesn't legally exist. What's happening now is that there's a bunch of disgruntled idiots who realized too late that Discovery pulled a coup by signing Basso, and now they want to punish them for it because they didn't think of it first.

There's a reason for the "innocent until proven guilty" presumption that works so well in certain countries in the world. It prohibits people from having their rights taken away from them until they get due process. In their froth-at-the-mouth frenzy to respond to the doping scandals, cycling is cannabalizing itself by allowing the zealots to keep popular cyclists off the bike and out of the premier events on the basis of nothing more than suspicion.

The hilarious part of all this (or maybe it's the sad part -- depends on perspective) is that most everyone agrees that "they all dope and everyone knows it". So the end result of all this is that only the unlucky ones who test positive, and the good ones who are natural targets for vague allegations, are the scapegoats for a system that's corrupt from top to bottom. So you have races with substandard fields and fans who grumble about it.

Frankly, I don't see who benefits from all of this nonsense. Riders should be permitted to race until a tribunal finds them guilty of something. There is no way to enforce a ban on "suspected" riders, because then you leave it to some individual's interpretation of what constitutes reasonable suspicion. And of course, there is the substantial issue of fairness. It's not fair to ban someone from riding because of a notebook found somewhere or because someone badmouthed you -- not until some finder of fact determines that there is proof of wrongdoing.

Otherwise, you get ridiculous situations where people are actually considering withholding entire teams from racing in events based upon an unenforceable agreement not to sign a rider who has not been charged with anything.

Professional cycling has two major problems: doping, and the lazy idiots who would respond to the crisis by throwing due process out the window. If you want to clean up the sport but you can't prove a suspected rider guilty of anything, that ought to be your problem, not his.

Great post - in my opinion, the problem is, the UCI have completely lost control and respect of the racing community - its has become a free for all. National federations, the grand tour 'three', the teams, the media, the TV stations, the sponsors, the european race organisators, are all trying to get their bit of power in the game. The losers - riders and fans.

 

[cyclingheroes]

Great post - in my opinion, the problem is, the UCI have completely lost control and respect of the racing community - its has become a free for all. National federations, the grand tour 'three', the teams, the media, the TV stations, the sponsors, the european race organisators, are all trying to get their bit of power in the game. The losers - riders and fans.

Great comment on a great post!

 

[patch70]

Do my eyes decieve me or is this not the same crowd of people on this forum who were wondering and hoping that Jan Ullrich would get a spot on a team somewhere for next year. And what would have been the reaction by these hypocrites if he had got a contract or does in the future. And what would be the reaction if the teams tried to exclude Jan. Just more confirmation of what we allready know to be the state of hypocrasy on this forum.

I think you are seeing what you want to see to maintain your American-style "they're all out to get us, and your either with us or against us" mentality. I don't see anyone calling for Jan to be re-instated but Basso not to be. There are people calling for both to be allowed to race. There are people who are calling for Basso to be allowed to race but not commenting on Jan. And vice versa. And there are people who think that they both should be excluded.