Disco/Active Bay excluded from IPCT meeting..

[limerickman]

I think you are seeing what you want to see to maintain your American-style "they're all out to get us, and your either with us or against us" mentality. I don't see anyone calling for Jan to be re-instated but Basso not to be. There are people calling for both to be allowed to race. There are people who are calling for Basso to be allowed to race but not commenting on Jan. And vice versa. And there are people who think that they both should be excluded.

..........Or in my case for both JU/IB to be exonerated before they're allowed race.

Well stated Patch : best post on the thread thus far.

 

[whiteboytrash]

..........Or in my case for both JU/IB to be exonerated before they're allowed race.

Well stated Patch : best post on the thread thus far.

Good post yes... however going over the point that when Basso said that he was taking offers from DC and Barloworld, Bruyneel quickly snuffed this out in the press and stated that he wasn’t talking or making offers to Basso…. Of course he was but he didn’t want the other teams to snap up Basso as they all had agreed they wouldn’t sign him…. again Bruynnel has done more the break the gentleman’s agreement he has been very shrewd but also deceived the other teams… no wonder they are so incensed and we questions Patrick L’s agenda ??

 

[homeycheese]

..........Or in my case for both JU/IB to be exonerated before they're allowed race.

Well stated Patch : best post on the thread thus far.

Unfortunately, there is now exhoneration from innuendo and hearsay.

 

[musette]

DC/USPS's failed doping tests at the 1999 TDF.
DC/USPS's failure to support the Ethics Charter in mid-2006.

There you go again. Your use of unsubstantiated facts shows the extent to which you will bend to villify DC. If a team wants to improve the Ethics Charter by giving riders and teams appropriate protection, not supporting a draft of the Ethics Charter that the team perceives did not achieve those basic fairness and due process norms is not, for obvious reasons, equal to not supporting the combat of doping.

 

[homeycheese]

Good post yes... however going over the point that when Basso said that he was taking offers from DC and Barloworld, Bruyneel quickly snuffed this out in the press and stated that he wasn’t talking or making offers to Basso…. Of course he was but he didn’t want the other teams to snap up Basso as they all had agreed they wouldn’t sign him…. again Bruynnel has done more the break the gentleman’s agreement he has been very shrewd but also deceived the other teams… no wonder they are so incensed and we questions Patrick L’s agenda ??

Professional cycling and the tours are a multi-billion $ business venture and this stuff about "gentlemens agreements" is quite silly. It's about making money, entertainment and selling stuff and despite what we love about the sport, it is not altruism.

Bruyneel and Discovery are clearly playing todays modern business game at a vastly different level than most of the other sponsor/directeurs who behave as if this is the "good old days" of an era long ago passed into the dusty history books.

 

[helmutRoole2]

Professional cycling and the tours are a multi-billion $ business venture and this stuff about "gentlemens agreements" is quite silly. It's about making money, entertainment and selling stuff and despite what we love about the sport, it is not altruism.

Bruyneel and Discovery are clearly playing todays modern business game at a vastly different level than most of the other sponsor/directeurs who behave as if this is the "good old days" of an era long ago passed into the dusty history books.

Cheese, now you've got the best post thus far on this thread.

You've summed it up. I mean, everyone outside Disco might look down their collective snoot at it, but Bruyneel and the Disco organization will all retire earlier and with more money in their pocket. I don't know that much about the business network in European cycling -- sounds like it's been old school up to this point -- but it looks like the gloves are off. A gentleman's agreement? With that much money on the table? In the States, we call that an idiot's agreement.

Is this common practice in Europe? In cycling? Disco coming and crashing the party seems analogous to the rampant doping in the peloton and isn't it interesting that Disco has thrown the first punch?

To state it plainly, if Disco was doping Armstrong and Co., for all those years, took seven TdFs like a bunch of pigs, is it that surprising they'd, eh, pull a fast one ref. Basso? And is it that surprising they'd give IPCT the finger? It's a culture of **** you over there at Disco.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Professional cycling and the tours are a multi-billion $ business venture and this stuff about "gentlemens agreements" is quite silly. It's about making money, entertainment and selling stuff and despite what we love about the sport, it is not altruism.

Bruyneel and Discovery are clearly playing todays modern business game at a vastly different level than most of the other sponsor/directeurs who behave as if this is the "good old days" of an era long ago passed into the dusty history books.

I absolutely agree. However you need friends in the peleton because the day you need help is the day everyone refuses to assist... this stuff can't bite you back bigger on race day.....

 

[musette]

DC will be in a position to give help, as well as to receive help. If other teams want DC's assistance or acquiescence on certain things, they will have to consider helping DC. It's that simple.

 

[cyclingheroes]

DC will be in a position to give help, as well as to receive help. If other teams want DC's assistance or acquiescence on certain things, they will have to consider helping DC. It's that simple.

There will be team who will race against Disco, but.. there will also be team who will race against TM and Gerolsteiner. The peloton is devided about the issue.

 

[davidbod]

I think you are seeing what you want to see to maintain your American-style "they're all out to get us, and your either with us or against us" mentality. I don't see anyone calling for Jan to be re-instated but Basso not to be. There are people calling for both to be allowed to race. There are people who are calling for Basso to be allowed to race but not commenting on Jan. And vice versa. And there are people who think that they both should be excluded.

What does being American have to do with whether I think Jan or Basso should be allowed back in the peleton? If anything your post just shows again the bias and hypocrasy on this forum.

If you review my posts around the time just after the puerto affaire broke, you will see I pointed out then that it would be the team and tour organizations to take the lead in banning the riders. At the time I agreed with that view as well. However, that was based on what I deemed would be credible evidence (that would stand up in court) against the riders in question. We were told of video footage of riders at the clinic etc. etc. and all assumed that the riders in question would be found guilty without question. If not, then how could they be eliminated from the TDF.

That evidence now appears to be far less than what we initially were lead to believe and not anywhere near what would be required to find someone guilty of a doping offence. Does that mean they are not guilty. In the eyes of law and procedure yes, in the court of public opinion, I would say no. And we still don't know what further comings will appear down the road from puerto.

If you need the evidence for my original post, which it seems you do (like a club over the head), read on.

This was posted by Lim on the "what's new with Ullrich" thread less than a month ago (posts #30 and #82):

#30
"I'm told that there has been some contact between CSC and JU.

Looks like 2002-2003 : remember when Coast and CSC were vying for Jan Ullrich's signature?

How likely would a CSC/JU link up be ??
__________________
Der Jan Der Ullrich Der Kaiser!"

#82
"Thanks for this CH.

I'm sure that I spoke for others when I say that there was never any question of JU's involvement in OP.
When the initial report broke in June - I (like many others) was stunned.
As the (lack of) evidence quickly emerged, it was apparent that by the end of the 2006 TDF that there was no evidence against JU as regards OP.

It's an absolute travesty of justice that JU (and others) were barred from taking part in the 2006 cycling season.

I look forward to what you will publish about this - always interesting reading CH and you're an excellent contributor to this site.
A very welcome addition!
__________________
Der Jan Der Ullrich Der Kaiser!"

And then this from earlier on this thread (post #8)

"The action may be pouty - and it may be posturing.
But I think DC have backed themselves in to a corner following OP.
They've isolated themselves in terms of the rest of the peloton.
And that's a pretty stupid move on their part.
You know that when you race you need co-operation and the same goes with administration and running the sport.
DC, for whatever reason, assume that they can go there own way.
They can't."

So on the one hand it is "an absolute travesty of justice that JU (and others) were barred from taking part in the 2006 cycling season", but on the other hand, as soon as DC take that very same view and sign Basso, they are lambasted for it.

 

[whiteboytrash]

You're missing Lim's point; Lim was speaking of the individual treatment of the riders by their teams after the Tour. However DC backed themselves into a corner in regards to the “agreement” made by the teams prior to Basso's signing... there is a difference... you just need to be a little more intelligent, read the posts, instead of having your mind made up before you make your post.

What does being American have to do with whether I think Jan or Basso should be allowed back in the peleton? If anything your post just shows again the bias and hypocrasy on this forum.

If you review my posts around the time just after the puerto affaire broke, you will see I pointed out then that it would be the team and tour organizations to take the lead in banning the riders. At the time I agreed with that view as well. However, that was based on what I deemed would be credible evidence (that would stand up in court) against the riders in question. We were told of video footage of riders at the clinic etc. etc. and all assumed that the riders in question would be found guilty without question. If not, then how could they be eliminated from the TDF.

That evidence now appears to be far less than what we initially were lead to believe and not anywhere near what would be required to find someone guilty of a doping offence. Does that mean they are not guilty. In the eyes of law and procedure yes, in the court of public opinion, I would say no. And we still don't know what further comings will appear down the road from puerto.

If you need the evidence for my original post, which it seems you do (like a club over the head), read on.

This was posted by Lim on the "what's new with Ullrich" thread less than a month ago (posts #30 and #82):

#30
"I'm told that there has been some contact between CSC and JU.

Looks like 2002-2003 : remember when Coast and CSC were vying for Jan Ullrich's signature?

How likely would a CSC/JU link up be ??
__________________
Der Jan Der Ullrich Der Kaiser!"

#82
"Thanks for this CH.

I'm sure that I spoke for others when I say that there was never any question of JU's involvement in OP.
When the initial report broke in June - I (like many others) was stunned.
As the (lack of) evidence quickly emerged, it was apparent that by the end of the 2006 TDF that there was no evidence against JU as regards OP.

It's an absolute travesty of justice that JU (and others) were barred from taking part in the 2006 cycling season.

I look forward to what you will publish about this - always interesting reading CH and you're an excellent contributor to this site.
A very welcome addition!
__________________
Der Jan Der Ullrich Der Kaiser!"

And then this from earlier on this thread (post #8)

"The action may be pouty - and it may be posturing.
But I think DC have backed themselves in to a corner following OP.
They've isolated themselves in terms of the rest of the peloton.
And that's a pretty stupid move on their part.
You know that when you race you need co-operation and the same goes with administration and running the sport.
DC, for whatever reason, assume that they can go there own way.
They can't."

So on the one hand it is "an absolute travesty of justice that JU (and others) were barred from taking part in the 2006 cycling season", but on the other hand, as soon as DC take that very same view and sign Basso, they are lambasted for it.

 

[davidbod]

You're missing Lim's point; Lim was speaking of the individual treatment of the riders by their teams after the Tour. However DC backed themselves into a corner in regards to the “agreement” made by the teams prior to Basso's signing... there is a difference... you just need to be a little more intelligent, read the posts, instead of having your mind made up before you make your post.

The agreement between the teams was based on the initial premise of the evidence being strong enough to preclude riders from the TDF. The treatment of the riders by their teams was simply a follow on of that same feeling that the evidence was strong and damning.

To then say that after many months the evidence is not strong enough and it is a travesty of justice what happened to the individual riders, must then also say that the agreement between the teams is also a travesty of justice as both issues are based on the same line of evidence.

To then try to paint either issue as different is simply bias towards one vs the other as I have clearly pointed out.

Your in the legal profession, right. You should have no problem understanding the point I'm making.

 

[wolfix]

Good post yes... however going over the point that when Basso said that he was taking offers from DC and Barloworld, Bruyneel quickly snuffed this out in the press and stated that he wasn’t talking or making offers to Basso…. Of course he was but he didn’t want the other teams to snap up Basso as they all had agreed they wouldn’t sign him…. again Bruynnel has done more the break the gentleman’s agreement he has been very shrewd but also deceived the other teams… no wonder they are so incensed and we questions Patrick L’s agenda ??

The other teams to snap up Basso? Basso had Discovery in his mind all the way. And why not? In the last decade Basso or Discovery won almost every GT that was raced.
Byuyneel is a riders DS. He backs his riders. This "retaliation" talk going on is silly. The "gentlemens ageement" is like trusting a rattlesnake when it comes to Patrick L.... Riis and others would have signed Basso in a moment if they could have.

 

[whiteboytrash]

The other teams to snap up Basso? Basso had Discovery in his mind all the way. And why not? In the last decade Basso or Discovery won almost every GT that was raced.
Byuyneel is a riders DS. He backs his riders. This "retaliation" talk going on is silly. The "gentlemens ageement" is like trusting a rattlesnake when it comes to Patrick L.... Riis and others would have signed Basso in a moment if they could have.

Agreed and that was the point I was making.... Bruyneel was happy to tell the world that he wasn't talking or making offers for Basso when in fact he was..... that’s ok but he will have to face the repercussions from his tactics and decision making... if that’s means having a rider with an uncertain future then so be it... DC have put all their chips on red 36 and if it doesn't come up then they will have to rely on TommyD doing the Giro / Tour double !

If I was a DC I wouldn't touch Basso... not because he is a doper but there are too many unknown forces out there who don't want him riding... whether these forces are legitimate or not is not the point... Bruyneel has played his move and he'll have to wait to see what the rest do... as someone in wheelchair once said... "I'll see you in court"

With Armstrong there was never enough mud to stick... with Basso its a quagmire...

 

[Serafino]

The "unknown forces" who don't want Basso riding are simply hypocrites. Same goes for the race directors who ban any rider who hasn't been found guilty.

To date, OP is a farce. If riders are indeed found to have doped (that includes Basso, JU, et al.) then I would wholeheartedly agree with a ban. That presupposes legally valid evidence presented openly through a court or other quasi-judicial proceeding. To date, there simply hasn't been any such evidence brought to light.

To ban riders simply based on rumour and innuendo, without cold hard public facts which face scrutiny, is simply wrong. Why should we throw out the presumption of innocence? The hypocrites who wail against Basso, JU, et al., and who'd hang them without due process simply do so, not for the love of the sport, but for their own selfish interests. Chief scoundrel .. Lefevere ...

 

[whiteboytrash]

Seems to me some of you are letting your hatred for Bonnen (who continually smashes Hincapie in the classics) get the way of better judgment upon Lefevere... not hard to work you guys out !

Chief scoundrel .. Lefevere ...

 

[Serafino]

Seems to me some of you are letting your hatred for Bonnen (who continually smashes Hincapie in the classics) get the way of better judgment upon Lefevere... not hard to work you guys out !

That's right, keep wallowing in your own delusions.

When did I ever say that I hated Boonen or that I thought that he was a doper. I actually like him as a rider and I'm also a big Bettini fan. In fact, my son and I had the pleasure of meeting the Italian and Belgian teams at both the 2003 WC in Hamilton and the Athens 2004 Olympics.

Don't let your own hatred blind you to the fact that not everybody shares your sentiments.

 

[helmutRoole2]

I absolutely agree. However you need friends in the peleton because the day you need help is the day everyone refuses to assist... this stuff can't bite you back bigger on race day.....

Not if they have Basso. I don't recall them asking for any help when Armstrong was riding for them.

 

[helmutRoole2]

DC will be in a position to give help, as well as to receive help. If other teams want DC's assistance or acquiescence on certain things, they will have to consider helping DC. It's that simple.

They may not like it, especially right now, but later when deals are being brokered, someone will come to Disco and that's when the solidarity that we're seeing now, in the off season, will go right out the window.

 

[musette]

Speaking of Lefevre/Boonen, there are things that DC can do to help or hurt Boonen's chances in getting the green jersey. In fact, there was a period when McEwen felt that DC was helping riders other than him, in that regard.

DC needs other teams at the Tour less than most other teams need DC. That is because (1) DC knows that sprinters teams will be helping to reel in breakaways for their own purposes, (2) DC has developed two wonderful rouleur-type domestiques who can be at the front of the peloton a lot (Padrnos and Noval) and has sufficient mountain support for their team leader, (3) other teams will soon enough be trying to preserve their high standings in GC, even if they think a DC rider will ultimately win the Maillot Jaune, (4) other teams will see the folly in the strategy of certain teams (such as Phonak, CSC) in this year's past Tour, and (5) other teams will know that DC has a good chance, with Basso, to have another "boss" of the peloton (when he is guided by LA and Bruyneel).